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follower333 -> Christians and military (5/28/2008 11:06:44 PM)

Hi, I am new here and I would like to get to know posters by discussing the topic.

I would like to ask everyone why the military is approved by churches in America even though Jesus commands us to love our enemy.

I hope we can discuss without being hostile like christians should.

Thank you.



Stephanos -> RE: Christians and military (5/28/2008 11:59:07 PM)

Welcome to the forums, and part MCMLXXXIII of the "Should Christians be in the military" topic.

First, loving your enemies does not mean letting them do whatever they want to you.

Second, since God is the same yesterday, today, and forever; we then must keep in mind that as Ecclesiastes says, "(There is) A time for war, and a time for peace." As well as He sent Israel into battle several dozen times, with the command of killing every living thing. So clearly there ARE times when war and a military is called for.

Third, Cornelius, the first Gentile convert to Christianity, was a Roman Centurian. A solder! If it was wrong for Christians to be in the military, what better time, than with the FIRST GENTILE CHRISTIAN, then to say such a thing.

Fourth, while you used "love your enemy" as your reasoning, it should be noted that the sixth commandment in the Hebrew is "Thou shall not MURDER" not simply kill. The word, in the Hebrew language clearly means to kill with out cause, not simply kill.



zamdad -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 12:05:45 AM)

First off, welcome to the community. This subject has been discussed adnauseum several times over the past few years. It can get quite hostile; even some of the most pacifistic get very militant in defending their position.

While I'm sure there is much thological discussion around the topic of loving our enemies or even determining who our enemies are, seems to me that to be a total pacifist does not reflect the character of Christ. The complete pacifist stands by and allows thugs, theives and robbers to pillage and plunder others while screaming for someone else to come in and rescue them.

My take on the passage is that He was speaking to us as individuals and that we are to let go of our anger, our hurts and wounds and to love that person who has offended us. I don't think He was speaking to us as a nation about loving foriegn governments or ideolgies that conflict with His teaching as well as wanting to wipe us off the face of the earth.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:15:13 AM)

The life story of Sgt. Alvin York has always been my answer to this debate. A ww1 christian conscientious objector who was drafted and fought in ww1 becoming the most decorated non-com of that war.



P31W -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 8:22:55 AM)

For me at least I don't "hate" the people we are at war with no more than I "hate" the person who is holding a room full of elementary children at gunpoint and we must decide to "take him out".


Scripture does seperate for us the responsibility of the individual and the government.

Remember the law "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". That was suppose to be used in the civil courts to help judges give out just and not overbearing punishment against an offender.

By the time of Jesus the "individuals" believed they had the right to use that "eye for an eye" phase to dish out punishment on people. They were standing on what they believed was their "right" to take our their neighbor's eye.

Jesus came to help the individual learn that this was not for the purpose of having "your right" to do something to someone. Rather we are to show mercy when possible as individuals.

Jesus did not "change" the law. Rather he corrected the individual understanding of it.

Romans 13:1-6

1 Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God. 2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. 3 For the authorities do not frighten people who are doing right, but they frighten those who do wrong. So do what they say, and you will get along well. 4 The authorities are sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for you will be punished. The authorities are established by God for that very purpose, to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must obey the government for two reasons: to keep from being punished and to keep a clear conscience. 6 Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid so they can keep on doing the work God intended them to do.



JimboFletch -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 10:05:17 AM)

You don't have to hate an enemy to try to prevent them from harming one's countrymen and/or country.

And being in the military doesn't automatically mean you'll harm an "enemey." During the "Cold War" with the USSR, lives were saved and freedom preserved without our military killing Russians or destroying any of their homeland.



chrystar -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 10:10:59 AM)

Hi follower33#, welcome!

Jesus commanded us to love our enemies, it was and still is a very radical teaching, it runs counter to what our own nature would have us do. To say that beacue this is Jesus command, we should not have soliders is a false argument, for you can love your enemy, but who is going to protect you from your enemy?, for your enemy dosent love you, otherwise he would not be your enemy. This is simple logic........

You pointed out why american churches support the militray ( why america?, why did you not simply ask christians as a whole?), what do you mean approve?- I think you really need to come out and say what you really want to say in order for us to be able to be able to provide an accurate response for you

As such I can only"guess", that what you mean is why do churches especially evengelical churches celebrate and honor thoose who have served in the militray,why the militray is a source of pride?
If that is what you mean then the answer would be: Why would they NOT honor people who have VOLUNTEERED to risk thier lives and to be away from thier familes to protect all of us, why would we not celebrate these men and women who are hereos in every since of the word. When they have decided to truly live out what Jesus stood for, which is that Jesus laid down his life so that we could be free, that is what soliders do and are doing in places like Iraq everyday.

Look, I know you are new, but please come out and tell us THE THRUTH BEHIND YOU POST, WHY DID YOU SINGLE OUT CHRISTIANS HERE IN AMERICA, WHY DID YOU MAKE THE COMMENAT ABOUT CHRISTIANS MUST NOT BE HOSTILE

I am being hostile?, yeah I guess I can see how you could take that meaning away from what I posted. I am not trying to be, but you post just makes me suspcious of your motives, it just dose, it is nothing personall and part of the blessing and curse of written communciation is that you can sometimes not tell intent of the words other then what they say.In other words perhaps you did not mean to come across they way I beleive you did, but the only thing I have is what you said, thus I am asking you to state where you coming from, What are your beleifs? Why do you think the militray is so anthama to christian belief?



follower333 -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 10:24:29 AM)

So far, I don't see any new excuses I havent heard before. So I'll go to my point right away instead of debating the usual ones.

quote:

I would like to point out the sins that involves around the military.

First of all, you have to swear when you enlist, which God has forbidden His people from doing. Second, you may be killing Jesus' servants because His followers are everywhere in the world, including your enemy's countries. Furthermore, people who are in the military and claim to be Christians are gaining the reputation of hypocrites by killing their enemies because the world knows christians evngelize saying God is love.


These are simple facts; why do you military supporters avoid them? You cannot be guiltless just because you avoid them. Please think very hard before you respond instead of giving excuses.
These sins are grave ones.

thank you.



SuspenseWriter -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 10:29:58 AM)

:::sigh::: Another gutless liberal. Where in the world do they all come from? And more to the point, why do they sneer at those of us who did (and do) their fighting for them?



Qtman -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 10:41:32 AM)

This thread has the potential to turn ugly real fast. So I am going to make a drive by post and leave quickly. Having served for six years in the Army, as a Christian I might add, I had not reservations about my job. I did not think of myself as sinning nor do I to this day. Not only did God himself ordain war He also assisted in the battles on numerous occasions.

Back in my day, the Vietnam era, the youth movement and the hippies marched and protested against the war. THere was a saying back then I think still holds true today. If you don't like soldiers, when this country is invaded call a hippie.



SuspenseWriter -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 11:05:58 AM)

I'm with you, Qtman; I'm bailing from this thread as well. It's simply not my job to give cowards a spine, or to make them undertand why fighting for their family's right to live is a good thing. As my old DI used to say, "the kid's not worth a bucket of warm spit." Later, gators.



follower333 -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 11:18:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter

I'm with you, Qtman; I'm bailing from this thread as well. It's simply not my job to give cowards a spine, or to make them undertand why fighting for their family's right to live is a good thing. As my old DI used to say, "the kid's not worth a bucket of warm spit." Later, gators.

quote:

So far, I don't see any new excuses I havent heard before. So I'll go to my point right away instead of debating the usual ones.

quote:

I would like to point out the sins that involves around the military.

First of all, you have to swear when you enlist, which God has forbidden His people from doing. Second, you may be killing Jesus' servants because His followers are everywhere in the world, including your enemy's countries. Furthermore, people who are in the military and claim to be Christians are gaining the reputation of hypocrites by killing their enemies because the world knows christians evngelize saying God is love.

These are simple facts; why do you military supporters avoid them? You cannot be guiltless just because you avoid them. Please think very hard before you respond instead of giving excuses.
These sins are grave ones.


So far, I don't see any new excuses I havent heard before. So I'll go to my point right away instead of debating the usual ones.

quote:

I would like to point out the sins that involves around the military.

First of all, you have to swear when you enlist, which God has forbidden His people from doing. Second, you may be killing Jesus' servants because His followers are everywhere in the world, including your enemy's countries. Furthermore, people who are in the military and claim to be Christians are gaining the reputation of hypocrites by killing their enemies because the world knows christians evngelize saying God is love.

These are simple facts; why do you military supporters avoid them? You cannot be guiltless just because you avoid them. Please think very hard before you respond instead of giving excuses.
These sins are grave ones.



JimboFletch -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 11:24:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: follower333
So far, I don't see any new excuses I havent heard before. So I'll go to my point right away instead of debating the usual ones.

So we know where this is going and whether your points are valid, please answer these questions:

1) Jesus, is He God the Son and part of the Godhead?

2) When Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, was He kidding?

3) The God of the OT, is He a different god than the one of the NT?



follower333 -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 11:45:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: follower333
So far, I don't see any new excuses I havent heard before. So I'll go to my point right away instead of debating the usual ones.

So we know where this is going and whether your points are valid, please answer these questions:

1) Jesus, is He God the Son and part of the Godhead?


Jesus is Son of God and savior of the world, if you accept Him as your Lord and Savior until the end you may be saved.

quote:

2) When Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, was He kidding?


Of course, but no one is above Jesus, not even any government; You should not obey it if the gorvenment tells you to do ungodly things.

quote:

3) The God of the OT, is He a different god than the one of the NT?


No, but Jesus is all Christians' Lord. You need to take heed everything He tells you to do. He is our voice to command us. He corrected many, many of the pharisees' ungodly practices, and it applies to today's christian communities. In the OT, they had prophets, and God spoke directly. In the NT, we have Jesus, and He's given His command regarding war.



chrystar -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 11:49:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: follower333

So far, I don't see any new excuses I havent heard before. So I'll go to my point right away instead of debating the usual ones.

quote:

I would like to point out the sins that involves around the military.

First of all, you have to swear when you enlist, which God has forbidden His people from doing. Second, you may be killing Jesus' servants because His followers are everywhere in the world, including your enemy's countries. Furthermore, people who are in the military and claim to be Christians are gaining the reputation of hypocrites by killing their enemies because the world knows christians evngelize saying God is love.


These are simple facts; why do you military supporters avoid them? You cannot be guiltless just because you avoid them. Please think very hard before you respond instead of giving excuses.
These sins are grave ones.

thank you.


yup I am was right........my instinct was correct

so let me set you straight

1)If my memory serves me right I belive the context Jesus was speaking about was about swearing by Gods name or by any name as a way to prove your honesty was a practice the pharassies did quite a lot in jesus day. That is much different then swearing an oath on front of witness and in front of god as a sign of you entering into a covent ( beacuase I beleive the last part of militray enlistment oath is "so help me God). Beside you logic is failing you. If you say we should not swear oaths as a covenet, then what about marriage, what about contracts with others. Sorry my friend you lose the argument on this one, you cant have it both ways, logic just isn't with you

2)It is sad isn't it that there is war and death and destrution on this earth. and yes there are christians who are in militaires all over the world. Soldiers do not decide when the trumpet to charge is soudned, that resposniabilty lies on our leaders. Your absloute ignorance on this question is obvious, war to a solider is not about hatered it is about doing a job, yes that job is killing people, who are trying to kill them. As a solider it is not about protecting you, but protecting the man standing beside you. You need to read history books more, In the civil war many times soldiers would cross enemy lines and have chats with thier "enemis", some who where even family , only the next day to be facing across from each other trying to to kill each other in utter savagery.
You just dont get it,but I dont blame you, you have never served and you cant understand this.Until you serve,until you stand shoulder to shoulder with others against a common enemy, what I have just explaned to you will not make sense. That is the difference between a soldier and killer, a warrior and murder. like sin, it is about the intent. God never meant for us to fight, he did not intend for us to sin, soldiers are a unfortante nesscitay of our sin.
this is not an argument I can win with you, beacuse you ignorance cannot be overcome. I am not saying that to be mean, but this is just truth in that you cannot understand, and I cannot explain to make you understand.......

3) hypocrites- hmmm we are hypocrites I gues beacuse people like you love to shout it out, but You know what, I agree with you to a certian extent, we preach God is love, we preach love our eneimes, and then mean old soldiers go out and kill in God name. Yes we as christains are gulty of grave sins by our use of militray force in the name of christinaity in the past. I cannot answer for the sins for my forebears, that is thier sin, not mine. So if you want to bring up the past, I am right with you my man for denouncing errors of the past.

What makes us hypocrtes now is that our media in this country dosen't report on how many Iraqi fighters are treated in our hospitials, beacuse we shot them! or how we work with people in the Iraqi governement who faught tooth and nail to prevent us from invading during the intial invasion of Iraq, it dosent report of how US forces train men who only a few years earlier where trying to kill thoose same ones who are th training them. Like you ,the media just loves to rub our noses in the dirt at when christians are hypocrites ( or any one who for that matter, they live for bringing people down). It dosent report on how US soldiers risk thier lives daily to protect Iraqi and Afghan women and children from the monsters that are around them, it is the christianity in our militrary that makes this possiable. I have been there I have seen this , I have watched men in my unit who were part of the first invasion talk with Iraqi policemen who where there and they talk about trying to kill each other like you and I would talk about a baseball game.

You say that we as soldiers sin beacuse of these things. Do you want me to tell you are right?, that it is a sin to kill, to hunt your fellow man through the ruins of a war-torn city. Of course it is a sin, it is not God will. but is it a sin beacuse I am/did this or dose it become a sin beacuse I wanted to do this out of hatred?. You like so, so many other, who have no clue about the military confuse killing and hatred. Read the book of Jousha sometime, I guess the subject of war and God is never mentioned there, despit the 10 commandements but I could be wrong....

You say not to make an excuse for our sin, what is the excuse for the sin in your life?
So I ask you, how is serving in the military in of itself a sin?, others can give you qoutes from the bible that show Jesus interactng with soliders, why did he not denounce the sin when he saw it like he did every other time he came face to face with sin, if serving in a militray force was wrong and a sin? .....but you know this passage and ignore them. Like a lot opf people with other issues you take a few verses out of the bible and hang you hat on it, instead of looking at the whole picture.

Gob bless the united states militra!y, is is because of them that we are able to have this argument today. That is just fact, I have yet to see a pacifist accoount for this, can you

but that is enough for day

peace![:D]



follower333 -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 12:05:47 PM)

Chrystar, please read the quote below carefully, because you are still evading my points, and please make comments and questions one at a time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: follower333

So far, I don't see any new excuses I havent heard before. So I'll go to my point right away instead of debating the usual ones.

quote:

I would like to point out the sins that involves around the military.

First of all, you have to swear when you enlist, which God has forbidden His people from doing. Second, you may be killing Jesus' servants because His followers are everywhere in the world, including your enemy's countries. Furthermore, people who are in the military and claim to be Christians are gaining the reputation of hypocrites by killing their enemies because the world knows christians evngelize saying God is love.

These are simple facts; why do you military supporters avoid them? You cannot be guiltless just because you avoid them. Please think very hard before you respond instead of giving excuses.
These sins are grave ones.

thank you.



follower333 -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 12:09:54 PM)

Everyone,

My points are very clear and simple. Please make your questions one at a time to avoid unnesessary repetitions.

thank you.



chrystar -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 12:30:36 PM)

*sigh* I dont know what argument you have heard before, I asnwered your three, you did not respond , and I am evading.?...............I repsond to your, you respond to mine, that is how discussion works

*shakes head*



follower333 -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 12:58:49 PM)

Crystar,

You are using unbiblical sources and arguments to refute. I know there will be many, many similar questions and comments like that. I dont have time to respond to everyone who is saying the same thing.

Please, make shorter statements that are easier for us to discuss. Like, say, three points at a time. Instead of massive, long posts. I can respond to that, but it'll be even longer than what you posted. Let's keep this simple and readable.

Thank you.

BTW, jimbofletch's post is a qood example of what I'm talking about.



SuspenseWriter -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 1:18:10 PM)

Okay, I had to post one more time, and then I'm gone. People like me are probably the ones he has issues with. Why? Because I have a military background.

You see, my dad fought in the Pacific in WWII, doing island cleanup. It was one the worst jobs imaginable, because it was his task, and the men he served with, to "clean out" nests of the Japanese soldiers who refused to surrender. You can picture how wild these enemy soldiers were; most of the time they either died by their own hand, or my dad and his troops had to do it for them. Then it was my time; I served as a doorgunner on a slick tasked to an AirCav group, flying missions out of the highlands in Vietnam; enough said on that. My younger brother served as a fire control officer on a Navy missle frigate, and lastly my oldest son served with the 82nd Airborne (15th PsyOps Bttn).

We're the guys the kid hates. But it's all right. He doesn't get it because he doesn't want to get it. That's why he keeps posting the same thing, over and over, trying to get us all ragged off at him. But I refuse to. When a man's unsure of where he stands as a man, that's about the worst thing I can concieve of.

So hats off to all of us who've served. To the swabbos, anchors aweigh. To the flyboys, keep 'em flying. To the jarheads, Semper Fi. And to us grunts, hoo-rah! [:)]

Dismissed. Carry on.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 1:25:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chrystar

so let me set you straight

1)If my memory serves me right I belive the context Jesus was speaking about was about swearing by Gods name or by any name as a way to prove your honesty was a practice the pharassies did quite a lot in jesus day. That is much different then swearing an oath on front of witness and in front of god as a sign of you entering into a covent ( beacuase I beleive the last part of militray enlistment oath is "so help me God). Beside you logic is failing you. If you say we should not swear oaths as a covenet, then what about marriage, what about contracts with others. Sorry my friend you lose the argument on this one, you cant have it both ways, logic just isn't with you


What about the logic of entering into covenants unequally yoked? Is it wise for a Chrisitain to place himself into a covenant with an enity that will possibly order him to commit sin? Especially if that enity doesn't honor Christ as King...


quote:

2)It is sad isn't it that there is war and death and destrution on this earth. and yes there are christians who are in militaires all over the world. Soldiers do not decide when the trumpet to charge is soudned, that resposniabilty lies on our leaders.


The call to arms doesn't absolve one from sin... Agents of the state can be sinful in their duties... The trumpet to charge being soudned doesn't toss the law of God out the window.

quote:

You say that we as soldiers sin beacuse of these things. Do you want me to tell you are right?, that it is a sin to kill, to hunt your fellow man through the ruins of a war-torn city. Of course it is a sin, it is not God will. but is it a sin beacuse I am/did this or dose it become a sin beacuse I wanted to do this out of hatred?. You like so, so many other, who have no clue about the military confuse killing and hatred. Read the book of Jousha sometime, I guess the subject of war and God is never mentioned there, despit the 10 commandements but I could be wrong....


Josuha was operating under the expressed orders of God, not man and a country that doesn't honor God...

John



zamdad -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 1:25:52 PM)

quote:

I hope we can discuss without being hostile like christians should.


You begin this discussion with this premise, then respond with the following:

quote:

So far, I don't see any new excuses I havent heard before. So I'll go to my point right away instead of debating the usual ones.

I would like to point out the sins that involves around the military.

First of all, you have to swear when you enlist, which God has forbidden His people from doing. Second, you may be killing Jesus' servants because His followers are everywhere in the world, including your enemy's countries. Furthermore, people who are in the military and claim to be Christians are gaining the reputation of hypocrites by killing their enemies because the world knows christians evngelize saying God is love.

These are simple facts; why do you military supporters avoid them? You cannot be guiltless just because you avoid them. Please think very hard before you respond instead of giving excuses.
These sins are grave ones.


Your arguments are the same old tired excuses. It seems there is nothing new under the sun. And, who are you to judge another who would choose to protect and defend the nation. You, a mere man, are making a judgment of folks like me who have been called into the service of fellow man to give you the freedom to express whatever opinion you wish. Seems to me you have a personal conviction you want to impose on others. Like I said in my first post, some pacifists can become very militant in their position.



follower333 -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 1:50:35 PM)

quote:

And, who are you to judge another who would choose to protect and defend the nation.


Who are you to judge another country as an evil nation and destrory them against Jesus' coommand to not kill your enemy? And at the seme time, you may be killing Jesus' servatns as well.

quote:

Like I said in my first post, some pacifists can become very militant in their position.


I don't kill my enemies like the military does. What are you talking about??



LBolt -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 2:00:56 PM)

What about Exodus 15:2? When Christ comes back to fight in the battle of Armageddon I guess He is wrong? Amen Stephanos!

Being a military man with 14+ in, I will not hesitate when in battle or war to engage the enemy in combat. Now whether the war is justifiable is to be debated...



zamdad -> RE: Christians and military (5/29/2008 2:06:37 PM)

quote:

I don't kill my enemies like the military does. What are you talking about??


Words can be more harmful than bullets. While I and others who have served this nation may still be present and able to engage you in discussion, your words pierce the souls of those who serve and have served. This piercing, however, evokes emotions such as anger toward you or, perhaps, pity for you because you seem to have placed yourself in a position to cast judgment (condemnation) on those who' be willing to be pierced by a bullet for you.

As for othere nations. In the current global climate battles are not so much about nations, but ideology. Osama bin Laden and the ruler of Iran (I can't spell his name) want to impose Allah on the world. They want to deny Christ by eliminating Christ from this earth. There is no negotiation with these guys. To them, the answer is simple, convert or die.

I wear a gun to work as i am a police officer. I might have to shoot someone to save the life of another. Does that mean I'm a sinner? Am I condemned for my occupation?



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