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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 5/30/2008 2:49:58 PM
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gmc4Jesus
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From: Torrance, California
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First of all, when our nation had greater regard for God, being punished (even spanked) by another adult was because I had it coming. Never a discussion on their "right" to discipline, but on my doing something that was wrong.
Today, because of the fear of another adult abusing a child and a culture that doesn't think that God makes the rules, we have to fear anyone else punishing our children, including a step parent.
If we would honor marriage as a life-time covenant, step parents would not be a problem. If we taught our children that God determines what is right and wrong, there would be less population in our courts, jails and less reason to punish wayward juveniles.
Now that I have criticized all of us for our sins (I'm a divorced and remarried parent also), lets work towards a solution.
We need to talk to step parents and come to a comon agreement towards disciplining the children. We will also have to talk to the children about these issues as well. In my opinion, both parents need to have some degree of authority in order to receive the respect that they need and to deal with issues while they are fresh rather than waiting and then dropping issues that should not be dropped.
I realize that being a step parent is a challenging issue that is not easily resolved. However, I challenge all to seek to know and follow Jesus. Let His life be a model for yours. It will help you know how to resolve these problems when they are bound to occur.
May God give you wisdom and Christ-like solutions to the challenges of raising children in a mixed marriage home.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 5/30/2008 2:58:14 PM
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karlie
Posts: 16591
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We're not talking about a step parent in this situation. It was the uncle that grabbed the girls arm and "disciplined" her...not a step parent.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 5/30/2008 5:03:23 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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I agree that step parents are completely different from uncles, friends, gf's, bf's etc., concerning discipline . However, what is more important to me is that grabbing someone's arm so hard you leave marks is not discpline, its abusive. I would be furious if someone grabbed my child in such way.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 5/31/2008 9:59:57 AM
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briar-rose
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Something new has come to light since I last posted.
My boyfriend and his brother are roommates so they can both afford a place to live. LIving on their own would be difficult if not impossible so this arrangement works for both of them so they have money to live on after paying bills.
The kids mom has said that she doesn't want the kids over there if their uncle is going to be there. When my boyfriend has the kids for the weekend either he is going to have to go somewhere else or the kids uncle leave for the weekend.
My boyfriend doesn't always watch his kids as closely as he should so he doesn't always know where they are or what they are doing. He is getting better though. So sometimes those around have to step up and stop the kids from misbehaving. It shouldn't be this way but it is. The uncle didn't mean to hurt his niece by leaving marks on her but I can understand from the mom's point of view the uncle being so much bigger than his niece that he has to be more careful of how he grabs her because he could really hurt her.
The kids mom didn't handle it well either because instead of going to the uncle and talking to him or letting the kids dad talk to him about it she called her ex husbands mom and unloads on her about what her son did. The grandmother wasn't even there and should of been left out of it.
Hope the kids mom cools off a bit and let it pass because my boyfriend is not sure what he is going to do if she demands that his brother not be there when the kids are.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 5/31/2008 10:37:35 AM
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karlie
Posts: 16591
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From: Central California
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quote:
Hope the kids mom cools off a bit and let it pass
As a mom myself, if someone told me to "cool off and let it pass" when I was looking out for the best interests and safety of my child, they would have gotten more than an earful from me! It's her job as a mom to make sure her children are safe. It's their father's job too, but if as you say he "doesn't always watch his kids as closely as he should so he doesn't always know where they are or what they are doing", then their mother is the one responsible for picking up that slack and making sure those kids are safe.
I'm not sure if you're a mother yet, but the instinct to protect your child is about the strongest there is. If you feel your kids aren't being safe and well cared for, a normal mom will go into Mother Bear mode veeeery quickly. It's a God given instinct, and her reaction is perfectly normal with no cooling off really necessary, in my opinion.
I don't see her request that the uncle not be there when the kids are as unreasonable at all. If the dad doesn't watch the kids well, as you've said, that means it will likely be the uncle(who has already left bruises on one of them)helping with their care. I'd find that unacceptable as a mother too. She has the right and the obligation to set the boundaries she thinks will keep her kids the safest.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 5/31/2008 10:42:24 AM
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peculiar_lady2
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I completely agree with Karlie.....and I also don't see a problem with the mother going to the boyfriend and uncle's mom to discuss this with her either. This is about her son (uncle) so even if she does need to discuss it with him (and I think she does need to, but maybe she just hasn't yet and is still forming things in her mind) she has a right to also discuss his behavior of leaving bruises on her child with the uncle's mom. Considering the dad (ex hubby) is already not an advocate on her side with this, maybe she needs someone who would understand her side of things and be on her side (and the kids side) and maybe she felt that she had an obligation to talk to this other mother about what her son did.
< Message edited by peculiar_lady2 -- 5/31/2008 10:49:04 AM >
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/1/2008 1:41:18 AM
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Christian30
Posts: 185
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From: Stafford, TX (Houston suburb)
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So far in my opinion, gmc4Jesus has the most wisdom in response to the OP. Sorry folks, but many of you have blown this WAAAAY out of proportion.
Yes, when the bf's brother grabbed the neice's arm and left bruises, it was reactive and he was obviously angry. BUT... she was doing something she should not have been doing. He should have immediately apologized (of which we never got an impression of whether he did or not), but the way the mother handled this (unbibilically, I"ll add, though I don't know if she was aChrisitan) was not conducive to him having the opportunity. Actually this was not really discipline, but an accident resulting from an unfortunate overreaction. This could happen to any of us, and some of you come across as if you could have never done the same thing by accident. From this one incident (though I realize more issues could be involved as well), for her to say that he cannot be present when her children are visiting their father is ridiculous. The father might can get a legal overruling on that, and as long as this other man is reasonably responsible, kind, etc., he should try to do so. Remember, what happened was a single incident.
But about actual discipline... It is sad that even in Christian circles that discipline of a child has become so individualistic. REcently we babysat our friends' children (and we have understandings about physical discipline), and our friends were so thankful that I spanked their 4yo for lying and talked to him about God's perspective on lying. He was asleep when they returned, and the father said that if the issue had "waited" he would have been fuzzy on the issue given his age and a slight learning disability. My wife and I loved this little boy and felt a covenantal duty to "nudge" him toward obeying as opposed to defying God.
As a tough kid coming from a home with tremendous amount of parental illness, I would be a different person today if I had not been spanked regularly in the Mississippi public school system. At differnet points I was out of control, and in that place/time it was not a big deal to discipline someone else's child.
I'm sorry if I sound self righteous, but I think this indiidualistic perspective on discipline is understandable in secular society, but it baffles me as far as fellow Christians.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/1/2008 2:04:44 AM
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karlie
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quote:
our friends were so thankful that I spanked their 4yo for lying and talked to him about God's perspective on lying.
And if those parents were okay with that, then wonderful! Just because they allow that with their child does not mean it's wrong, or sinful, or unchristian for other parents to chose to do all the serious disciplining themselves. If some parents feel they need the help of others to accomplish their goals, then they are perfectly welcome to give over some of that responsibility to anyone they choose. In some cases there may be some legitimate reasons for needing outside help. But for those of us who don't feel the need for that, we're within our parental rights as well to insist others refrain from physically handling our children. I don't see anything unchristian or secular about that.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/1/2008 2:51:14 AM
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Christian30
Posts: 185
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From: Stafford, TX (Houston suburb)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: karlie
quote:
our friends were so thankful that I spanked their 4yo for lying and talked to him about God's perspective on lying.
And if those parents were okay with that, then wonderful! Just because they allow that with their child does not mean it's wrong, or sinful, or unchristian for other parents to chose to do all the serious disciplining themselves. If some parents feel they need the help of others to accomplish their goals, then they are perfectly welcome to give over some of that responsibility to anyone they choose. In some cases there may be some legitimate reasons for needing outside help. But for those of us who don't feel the need for that, we're within our parental rights as well to insist others refrain from physically handling our children. I don't see anything unchristian or secular about that.
We have different perspectives on this, which will happen among Christians. I did not state a hard-line moral boundary on this issue, but I think if others are caring for your children that it is not preferable to insist that others use alternate disciplinary techniques on your children. The main emphasis on driving sin out of the child is through the Word of God and the rod. I am not trying to argue spanking (as we agree on that conceptually anyway), I just think that it is sad that this flexibility is fading from Christian circles.
As for this statement in your other email:
"If a family believes in physical discipline, I personally think that a child should be able to know that only his parents will handle that aspect."
I'd have walked all over someone caring for me as a child if they could not have spanked when I misbehaved, but that's just the way I was. (And trust me, many parents DO NOT know what their children are like when they are not present. Mine surely didn't.) I think that for kids knowing others have those liberties is a good thing and not bad. In many cases I've gotten kids to comply more easily just because they knew that I could spank. In many cases "waiting" is not feasible.
The parents I mentioned in the email didn't so much need help, they just weren't there at the time. They understand their childrens' potential sin natures quite well though, and were't too prideful to give liberty on a biblical priciple to Christian people whom they trusted.
No, I don't think it's wrong to not allow others to physically discipline your children, but I just don't think it's preferable if you are bringing up children by biblical principles. And yes, to prohibit this is a secular (not a Christian) direction as far as lifestyle.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/1/2008 2:57:32 AM
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Christian30
Posts: 185
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From: Stafford, TX (Houston suburb)
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The uncle who left the bruises... If the Mom is making the whole decision that the unclde can't be present when the kids are with the Dad on just this 1 incident it's ludicrous. We don't have the information to assess a "big picture" here. I think it is possible that this guy is a problem, but it's not nearly conclusive by information given here.
I remember getting paddled in school as a kid, and my mother was furious because there were bruises. My g'father (her father) calmly said: "The bruises will go away on their own. The bad behavior will not." He was right, but he'd raised 10 great children.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/1/2008 9:11:15 AM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
but I think if others are caring for your children that it is not preferable to insist that others use alternate disciplinary techniques on your children.
however in this case the uncle WAS NOT caring for the child in question....the DAD was there and he should have been the one to take care of the child, not the uncle. I do agree to a point that when we choose someone to watch our kids we are in essence giving them permission for certain disciplinary actions to be taken (and every parent has their own ideas of what is and is not appropriate in that type of setting). However, in this case the uncle was not watching the child in question. I also don't really see much of a problem with what the child was doing to warrant such intense grabbing that obviously it resulted in bruising...she was just looking for something OF HER'S that she thought maybe her brother had taken. She wasn't being rude or obnoxious or sassy or "asking for it"...she was simply being a child and looking for her property. The uncle had no right to touch her...and absolutely no right to touch her to the point of bruising her. The mom has every right to insist that for the safety of her child that this uncle not be around anymore when the child is in the dad's care. I am guessing that this uncle is an adult (guessing that only because he lives away from home)...and in this instance you are getting into legality here of what is and is not appropriate. The adult should have known better...and should have acted differently. Yes we all make mistakes and do things rash sometimes, but when it results in hurting a child then actions need to be taken for the protection of that child. The child was not in the wrong here....the uncle was...and the mom has every right to stand up for her child and insist that the uncle not be around to be given the opportunity to do it again.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/1/2008 9:56:49 AM
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briar-rose
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I can understand where you are comming from lady and kari from a mom point of view but have you ever been in the place of step parent. Sometimes woman being the main caregiver can make it really difficult for the ex and the new person in his life. The idea that I am now a part of the kids life is something she is having a hard time with. The dad and I agree on basic discipline for now that is not physical so that there really can't be any argument from the ex wife that me disciplining the kids in this way is unfair and abusive.
He really didn't see what the big deal was with the uncle doing what he did but didn't want to deal with the ex wife. The kids run back to the mom and tell them this and this happen at dads house and then he gets a call from the ex wife who is really mad wondering why this happened. It has been a real pain having to deal with this that she keeps this up he is going to say I will pay support and I love my kids but don't send the kids over anymore.
He doesn't want to have to deal with her trying to run his household
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/1/2008 11:28:22 AM
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rainbowtvp
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If I were divorced and my children's father was 1) not supervising them and 2) allowing others to abuse them (and by all state standards, leaving a bruise constitutes abuse), I would be at the courts asking that visitation be terminated.
I have hit my children at times over the years. Sometimes harder than I intended. And I have never left a bruise. I cannot even begin to imagine how hard you have to hit a child to leave a bruise.
SHE didn't ahndle it well?!? I can't even imagine how *I* would have reacted in such a circumstance. If anything they should all be grateful she called grandma and not the police (which is what *I* would have done)
Tara P
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/1/2008 11:41:15 AM
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rainbowtvp
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quote:
ORIGINAL: briar-rose
I can understand where you are comming from lady and kari from a mom point of view but have you ever been in the place of step parent. Sometimes woman being the main caregiver can make it really difficult for the ex and the new person in his life. The idea that I am now a part of the kids life is something she is having a hard time with. The dad and I agree on basic discipline for now that is not physical so that there really can't be any argument from the ex wife that me disciplining the kids in this way is unfair and abusive.
He really didn't see what the big deal was with the uncle doing what he did but didn't want to deal with the ex wife. The kids run back to the mom and tell them this and this happen at dads house and then he gets a call from the ex wife who is really mad wondering why this happened. It has been a real pain having to deal with this that she keeps this up he is going to say I will pay support and I love my kids but don't send the kids over anymore.
He doesn't want to have to deal with her trying to run his household
Both parents have a responsibility to their children above and beyond any other relationships they choose to enter. If you choose to enter their lives, you need to understand that the household will always have to abide in some ways to the other parent's wishes. Yes, this will make it hard for you. You have to decide whether you are willing to accept this. Just as there might be things your bf feels strongly enough about certain things, the mom & her new dh would need to comply with that.
The problem here isn't that a mom's wishes always trump the dad's... it is that the dad was/is not taking his responsibility to keep their children safe (physicall, emotionally, etc) while they are in his care.
If NOTHING else, you bf (and you) need to understand that the courts can make any kind of ruling in custody disputes. If ex-wife for instance, didn't approve of certain kinds of music, or didn't want her children exposed to cigarette smoke, or to eat certain foods, etc. and took it before the court, the judge could rule that your bf (& you if you marry him) have t abide by that in order to continue visitations-- even though those things are not against the law and parents typically can do them around their kids.
When it comes to something like the situation youd escribed, where (regardless of what people here think) the courts would see it as abuse-- he would be lucky to even get supervised vists.
If he wants to see his kids, he not only has to take responsibility to keep them safe, but keep their mom happy or he will lose them.
Tara P
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/1/2008 1:28:53 PM
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peculiar_lady2
Posts: 11263
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From: Between Hither and Yon
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quote:
I can understand where you are comming from lady and kari from a mom point of view but have you ever been in the place of step parent.
we may not have ever been in the position of step parent, but a few other posters that have said the same things we are saying HAVE and ARE in the position of step parent and are still saying the same things we are saying. So just because I and my kids dad are married doesn't change that fact that we wouldn't allow something like this uncle things to pass with our kids...period.
quote:
Both parents have a responsibility to their children above and beyond any other relationships they choose to enter. If you choose to enter their lives, you need to understand that the household will always have to abide in some ways to the other parent's wishes. Yes, this will make it hard for you. You have to decide whether you are willing to accept this. Just as there might be things your bf feels strongly enough about certain things, the mom & her new dh would need to comply with that.
exactly...and one parent deciding that they can't handle the road they made for themselves is only going to hurt the kids in the end. If they didn't want to have to deal with this then there are ways around it...like not divorcing and deciding to work things out....or not having kids with someone you aren't married to...or not having sex with someone you can't see yourself raising kids with. Unfortunately your needs and wants are no longer the most important when kids come into the picture...and the parents that choose to see this are the ones that do what is best for their kids above anything else.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/1/2008 2:40:22 PM
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briar-rose
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Rainbow, It wasn't a bruise but fingersmarks. My mistake if I said otherwise.
There is more ot the story that the kids fail to tell their mom LIKE WHEN....
The youngest goes home and tells his mom he hit is head on a computer.
He failed to tell her that he was wrestling with his brothers in their room(which is not that big) and fell off the bed. The computer is in a closet a couple feet from the bed.
The oldest told her mom that I took her to church(which I probally should of asked her mom first but the dad was right there and heard her ask me)She didn't tell her mom that she beg me to go and it was all her idea.
The incident with the uncle grabbing her she failed to tell her mom why.
She is a bit greedy and has a habbit of taking others peoples money. She claimed her brother might have it but in all truth she was going to take his money because she left her money on the steps and lost it. Her mom knows she does this and has punished her for it.
The ex wife wants my boyfriend to discipline the kids consistantly yet when they go home she calls up upset about what happened over here and then she wonders why they run wild over here because when anyone does anything over here the ex wife doesn't like the boyfriend hears about it.
We love spending time with his kids but there are times my boyfriend and I feel like telling her that if you feel it is such a danger for us to have the kids then you give your weekends off up and stay at home with your kids. It has been really frustrating dealing with her.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/2/2008 7:38:25 AM
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Ellie-Mae
Posts: 4274
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From: The EMPIRE state!
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quote:
This is so sad. The thought that this father would give up seeing his kids simply because he can't seem to get along with his children's mother is so very, very sad. A loving father wouldn't give up time with his kids (ESPECIALLY if he only has them on the weekends) no matter what.
That isn't always true. I have seen parents whose x's have made life so miserable and dangerous for not just them but also the other members of the family that they come to a breaking point even though it is obvious how much they love their child. Temptation is especially normal under times of extreme stress.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/2/2008 12:09:32 PM
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briar-rose
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Hislittleone,
The whole thing with me disciplining them is that my boyfriend and I have agree that if they are not listening, doing something they are not suppose to or being mouthy I will be able to send them to their room for 5-10 minutes or take away their toys for a certain amount of days. The ex wife is aware of this and if she objects to this then she has the right to keep them home and will have to explain to the courts why she is denying visitation.
As for the phone calls we are frustrated with them. It seems every time the kids go home my boyfriend gets a call from the ex wife who is extremely mad about something that happened over at the Dads house. Her first response is to call up the ex husband yelling and 99% of the time it is something minor that happened and responding in this manner wasn't necessary. But this has been the typical MO of her blowing up first then saying it wasn't a big deal after all.
Any ideas of how my boyfriend and I can deal with this that the ex wife angry phone calls stop.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/2/2008 4:09:09 PM
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Hislittleone
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Ellie-May, you're right that sometimes it may be best to back off for a while or at least to be very careful in how things are handled if you're dealing with a dangerous x. I just know that I would have to be facing EXTREME danger (or a court order) in order for me to give up time with them. And I would NEVER, EVER walk away from my children just because I couldn't get along with my x. Does that make more sense? Maybe I should have clarified in my earlier post that I know there are EXTREME cases where a parent may need to give up time with a child for a while. And I do know of one case where the woman was forced to give up her child by the courts. Her x had lots of money and lied to the courts so she lost custody. So yes, you're right that there are extreme circumstances sometimes when a parent does all they can do but it's just taken out of their hands. I've been divorced and had to deal with an x. So I can understand the situation somewhat. But I know that I would face death before I would just walk away from my children.
And this situation does not sound extreme to me. Unless the op is leaving something out? It just seems like the dad is irresponsible and doesn't care that much if he's willing to walk away because his x is causing stress in his life. So what if it's stressful for him? He should be doing what's best for the (the x) instead of against her. And a man who doesn't watch over his kids like he should when they're in his kids not what's easiest for him. It would be more beneficial for him to try and work with her custody is working against the mother. He's creating a stressful situation by being an irresponsible parent.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/2/2008 4:51:42 PM
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rainbowtvp
Posts: 1051
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From: The Unted State of Confusion
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quote:
ORIGINAL: briar-rose
As for the phone calls we are frustrated with them. It seems every time the kids go home my boyfriend gets a call from the ex wife who is extremely mad about something that happened over at the Dads house. Her first response is to call up the ex husband yelling and 99% of the time it is something minor that happened and responding in this manner wasn't necessary. But this has been the typical MO of her blowing up first then saying it wasn't a big deal after all.
Any ideas of how my boyfriend and I can deal with this that the ex wife angry phone calls stop.
The best way to get the calls to stop would be for your bf to make sure the kids are properly supervised and safe while in his care. If nothing is happening while they are with him, there will be no reason for her to call.
Another idea would be to make sure an adult gives her any news at drop off (whoever is there when the kids are exchanged) rather than letting her hear about it from the kids. Especially when any kind of injury is involved (even a bump on the head).
If everything has truly gone well during a visit, but she calls to complain about something simple (I would call simple being something that does not involve injuries--like a kool-aid stain left to set in on a shirt) then your bf could just not answer- let her leave voice mail and respond in a few hours when she may have calmed down. He can also record the calls in case there are problems later. They could have a mediator help them with communication if necessary.
And, BTW, leaving finger marks is bruising.
Your role in the realtionship should be to 1) help your bf be the best dad he can 2) help your bf to be wise and gentle in his responses to his ex-wife 3) help him comply as best as you can with her requests. It can be easy to just feed the anger he has towards her, but that isn't going to help him, you, or his kids.
Tara P
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/3/2008 1:02:08 AM
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Christian30
Posts: 185
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From: Stafford, TX (Houston suburb)
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A number of adults in this thread need a good BUTT WHOOPIN!!!! the Kids are not so bad.
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RE: Disaplining family's kids - 6/3/2008 1:37:37 AM
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purplepixie87
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Christian30---Sorry, I have to comment on a couple of things that jumped out at me.
quote:
our friends were so thankful that I spanked their 4yo for lying and talked to him about God's perspective on lying
Spanking a FOUR year old for lying? Why on earth would you spank a child that doesn't even know what lying is or really *how* to lie. To a 4 year old, when they "Lie" it may just be their own little fantasy, it doesn't mean it's an actual lie. My 3 year old (who will be 4 in september) lies occasionally, but I know it is not an actual lie because she is not old enough to even know what lying is. I could understand if the child were 6 or 7, or older. But 4? That's ridiculous, IMO. Have you ever read scientist's and doctor's notes on child development? Children don't develop the ability to lie until they are at least 5, most of the time it's 6 or older. Most children don't know what lying is up until that point, and when they do "lie" it's something they imagined, because children that age DO have imaginary friends, and they DO have very overactive imaginations, so they may see something or hear something that wasn't even there. Is that lying? NO it's just being a child. So I'm sure the 4 year old was absolutely clueless as to what on earth you were talking about.
I don't mean this to be offensive, but it's the scientific and psychological fact of child's cognitive development. You shouldn't punish children younger than 5 for lying, and even at 5 years old you need to watch them FIRST to see if the lying is a habit (which means that they KNOW what they are doing) or if it is once in a while (which most likely means that the child is using his/her imagination)
quote:
We have different perspectives on this, which will happen among Christians. I did not state a hard-line moral boundary on this issue, but I think if others are caring for your children that it is not preferable to insist that others use alternate disciplinary techniques on your children. The main emphasis on driving sin out of the child is through the Word of God and the rod. I am not trying to argue spanking (as we agree on that conceptually anyway), I just think that it is sad that this flexibility is fading from Christian circles.
Why is it not OK to insist that others use alternate disciplinary techniques? I mean really, I want to know why it's not. Some parents do not believe in certain disciplinary techniques and consider them borderline abusive and not ideal for a child's emotional and mental and individual growth.
Case in point: Any time my parents (whom I live with) or my grandma (who watches the kids one at a time every now and then, she'll call and ask to watch them for a day or two) even as much as give my children a swat on the behind, they get an earful out of me. Spanking, they get me yelling at them. Why? Because to me, spanking should only be the very very last option, and ONLY if the child is doing something extremely harmful to his/herself (Example: playing with knives, electrical outlets, etc.) and to me, spanking seems very......WRONG. I don't understand why anybody would want to hurt a child on purpose, and invoke fear into a child on purpose. Many people will argue that spanking teaches them respect. No, it teaches them respect out of FEAR of being hurt again. That's one thing I will never be flexible on, if ANYBODY other than family was to spank MY child, EVER, I would have them in the courtrooms faster than they could blink. They'd be lucky if I didn't have them arrested for it. Nobody has the right to spank another's child, nobody.
Again, I don't mean this to be disrespectful, it's just my POV and my opinion.
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Proud Army Wife 
Mom to Jake, Hannah, Emma, Jackson, and Justice 
