RE: Oil hits $135/barrel- what does this mean for the economy?
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RE: Oil hits $135/barrel- what does this mean for the e... - 6/16/2008 7:55:42 AM
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Sophie11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
BUT, I still say none of this is possible to do with all of these insane environmentalists running around dictating law to our leaders. So I guess our option is.... great depression? Bummer.
Our options are more varied than some would have you believe.
Hydrogen fuel cells, natural gas, solar, wind, sugar ethanol, etc.
The technology is here, and it's viable. We just have to be willing to call the pundits on it when they lie about this matter. We have to start speaking up about these things.
Yes, a lot of the technology is there. But though you'd think the environmentalists would love the idea of putting just this kind of technology to good use, think again. For example, I just read a story of San Diego trying wanting to build a solar and wind plant in the southern CA desert. This plant is supposed to produce enough energy to provide 750,000 homes with electricity! Oh but wait, in order to complete the project they obviously need to run a transmission line into the city, which is where the environmentalists step in. These loco environmentalists don't want the company to be able to run this transmission line because of the 150 miles needed, 23 of those would run through a state park. So it comes down to possibly not being able to build this plant at all because of these environmentalists.
It's not going to be that easy to put any of this technology to good use. There is always going to be some lunatic environmentalist group there to stop the process. And maybe even trying to make the companies pay a large tax in order to build the new plants, because after all they are emitting carbon in the process of building new plants, and that's a big no no.
For these environmentalists, there is nothing that will ever make them happy. They would rather see this country sink into a deep economic depression over the price of energy rather than cut down one single tree in a state park or displace one single animal living in the area.
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RE: Oil hits $135/barrel- what does this mean for the e... - 6/16/2008 10:19:53 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1956
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Yes, a lot of the technology is there. But though you'd think the environmentalists would love the idea of putting just this kind of technology to good use, think again. For example, I just read a story of San Diego trying wanting to build a solar and wind plant in the southern CA desert. This plant is supposed to produce enough energy to provide 750,000 homes with electricity! Oh but wait, in order to complete the project they obviously need to run a transmission line into the city, which is where the environmentalists step in. These loco environmentalists don't want the company to be able to run this transmission line because of the 150 miles needed, 23 of those would run through a state park. So it comes down to possibly not being able to build this plant at all because of these environmentalists.
You'd think we would have other options. For example, there are several companies that run transmission lines from Arizona to San Diego- perhaps we could have them add capacity to their existing system. Or maybe we could broker a deal with the Sierra Club and Greenpeace where they help finance part of the process of running the wires around the park- or figure out a way to mitigate their environmental impact in the park.
quote:
It's not going to be that easy to put any of this technology to good use. There is always going to be some lunatic environmentalist group there to stop the process. And maybe even trying to make the companies pay a large tax in order to build the new plants, because after all they are emitting carbon in the process of building new plants, and that's a big no no.
First off, environmentalists aren't all lunatics. (I'll admit that many are, including perhaps people in this case) Many of them serve an important purpose by helping us figure out the true cost of the and they do serve a purpose by helping us determine the negative externalities of pollution. Obviously, many of us would be rather annoyed if the reservoir we got our water from was rendered undrinkable by groundwater pollution, so to some extent, environmentalism isn't always the terrible communist thing that people make it out to be.
quote:
For these environmentalists, there is nothing that will ever make them happy. They would rather see this country sink into a deep economic depression over the price of energy rather than cut down one single tree in a state park or displace one single animal living in the area.
You could say the same thing about the "Christian Right" or any other organized conservative movement. And you can find some occasional NIMBYism and craziness in any part of the country- and it may not necessarily be die-hard Greenpeace members engaging in it.
I think the solution is relatively straightforward- if whatever organization that opposes this is willing to pony up 20% of the additional cost, they can route the wires around the park or put them underground.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 6/16/2008 10:26:29 AM >
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RE: Oil hits $135/barrel- what does this mean for the e... - 6/16/2008 10:28:56 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I think the solution is relatively straightforward- if whatever organization that opposes this is willing to pony up 20% of the additional cost, they can route the wires around the park or put them underground.
And I think that is an excellent idea! If they want to pay for whatever additional cost is involved in making amendments to the plan, then let them go ahead and do that! I would have no complaint about it then!
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RE: Oil hits $135/barrel- what does this mean for the e... - 6/17/2008 9:22:28 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1984
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
Should gas stations still charge what they paid?
Yes-that would be fair.
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What if the price of oil goes down?
It's going up more than it goes down.
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What if other gas stations have lower prices?
It's not enough price difference to make a difference.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Oil hits $135/barrel- what does this mean for the e... - 6/17/2008 9:26:11 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1956
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Should gas stations still charge what they paid?
Yes-that would be fair.
quote:
What if the price of oil goes down?
It's going up more than it goes down.
quote:
What if other gas stations have lower prices?
It's not enough price difference to make a difference.
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quote:
What if other gas stations have lower prices?
But let's say you do the same thing with the stock market. You buy 100 shares of Chevron for $57/share.
If the price of Chevron goes up to $70/share, should you still have to sell it for $57?
If the price of Chevron goes down to $50/share, will anyone buy it from you for $57?
Or let's say we do the same thing with the housing market:
-You buy a home for $200K back in 1990. It is now worth $500K. Should you sell it for $200K?
-You buy a home for $500K back in 2005. It is now worth $300K. Will anyone buy it for $500K?
People should charge what market prices dictate, no?
Edited to correct a typo.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 6/17/2008 10:27:50 AM >
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RE: Oil hits $135/barrel- what does this mean for the e... - 6/17/2008 9:52:06 AM
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Sophie11
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Great analogy.
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RE: Oil hits $135/barrel- what does this mean for the e... - 6/17/2008 11:31:03 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1984
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
-You buy a home for $200K back in 1990. It is now worth $500K. Should you sell it for $200K?
According to the housing market in some areas, this is exactly what is occurring.
Point being, oil companies are making record profits, while we the people are not being heard for our concerns over the pricing. Gouging is occurring and we are suffering for it. Do you really believe this is ok?
Congress denied the ability for us to drill in the gulf and in Alaska. This drilling would have helped the American people-they said NO. You don't think that was greed? We wouldn't have to rely on foreign oil if WE drilled. Yet, our government doesn't seem fit to take care our it's countrymen.
The pools of oil found equaled the size of Saudi Arabia!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Oil hits $135/barrel- what does this mean for the e... - 6/17/2008 12:57:43 PM
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StephK
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Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
Congress denied the ability for us to drill in the gulf and in Alaska. This drilling would have helped the American people-they said NO. You don't think that was greed? We wouldn't have to rely on foreign oil if WE drilled. Yet, our government doesn't seem fit to take care our it's countrymen.
Then the people need to ride their congress critter's back until they allow the drilling to begin, until then we are at the mercy of OPEC.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Oil hits $135/barrel- what does this mean for the e... - 6/17/2008 1:50:15 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1961
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
Democratic Sen. Barack Obama joined the criticism, calling the idea of lifting the ban the wrong answer to out-of-control energy prices. "John McCain's plan to simply drill our way out of our energy crisis is the same misguided approach backed by President Bush that has failed our families for too long and only serves to benefit the big oil companies," Obama spokesman Hari Sevugan said.
It seems that some of our potential government still thinks it to be irresponsible to explore for new sources of energy. It seems it is OK to have an emery's hand on the oil valve.
One thing they miss is the fact...if oil stays above $80 you will be awash in other forms of energy in 10 years. Been there and done that and if oil would have stayed above $40 a barrel in the 70's we wouldn't be having this problem today. There has to be incentive for research and I don't mean government incentive.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Oil hits $135/barrel- what does this mean for the e... - 6/17/2008 3:09:37 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
Democratic Sen. Barack Obama joined the criticism, calling the idea of lifting the ban the wrong answer to out-of-control energy prices. "John McCain's plan to simply drill our way out of our energy crisis is the same misguided approach backed by President Bush that has failed our families for too long and only serves to benefit the big oil companies," Obama spokesman Hari Sevugan said.
More drilling and refining has been banned since before Bush. What kind of truth is in the above statement? 
Intelligence is beyond some people! 
There are other solutions other than drilling more oil. Cars that run off of hydrogen fuel cells and natural gas are already on the market through Honda. Toyota may not be far behind in releasing them as well. There's also solar, wind, methane and other resources we have that we don't look into because drilling is the easy solution.
Think outside the box. You may come up with something that no one's thought of before.
I am not saying do not consider alternatives. I am saying, "Quit cutting our own throats!" As for hydrogen cells, how many stations are in your neighborhood? It needs some serious infrastructure to take off. No pun intended. 
There won't BE an infrastructure unless people start supporting it. It's give and take in this situation, and actually Michigan has several fuel cell recharge stations in Dearborn, Ann Arbor and a couple other cities. They're growing in number, especially with Honda leasing the Clarity now.
We really need to start supporting these kinds of alternatives. The big three auto manufacturers have been spreading the lie that these solutions just won't work. We have to move away from that line of thinking and start rewarding cleverness and real solutions, not just the same old tactics from before.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Oil hits $135/barrel- what does this mean for the e... - 6/17/2008 3:13:24 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2451
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
There won't BE an infrastructure unless people start supporting it. It's give and take in this situation, and actually Michigan has several fuel cell recharge stations in Dearborn, Ann Arbor and a couple other cities. They're growing in number, especially with Honda leasing the Clarity now.
We really need to start supporting these kinds of alternatives. The big three auto manufacturers have been spreading the lie that these solutions just won't work. We have to move away from that line of thinking and start rewarding cleverness and real solutions, not just the same old tactics from before.
While that is very true, it becomes categorically impossible for some of us from a financial aspect. Examine the cost difference at the present. I certainly hope that in the near future the market will have accelerated enough to make this an obstacle of the past, but, for the present, it is a solid barrier. 
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
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<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Oil hits $135/barrel- what does this mean for the e... - 6/17/2008 3:32:42 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1961
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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jkdjr25...maybe you didn't hear what I said. When the oil price is too low, industry will not invest in the alternate energy development. When the price of oil gets above a certain level and looks like it will remain they will begin the new development. All of this takes in excess of 5 years to bring to market
With oil above $80 and staying there, new sources will come and people will purchase them because they will be a less expensive way.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Oil hits $135/barrel- what does this mean for the e... - 6/17/2008 5:48:41 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1956
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
According to the housing market in some areas, this is exactly what is occurring.
Generally, it's the folks who bought their house in 2004 trying to sell it for the 2004 price. You'll notice that it isn't selling.
You are free to go around offering quarters for 30 cents. That doesn't mean you'll get any takers. You have to charge the market price to sell something, so it's only fair for people to pay the market price to buy something.
quote:
Point being, oil companies are making record profits, while we the people are not being heard for our concerns over the pricing. Gouging is occurring and we are suffering for it. Do you really believe this is ok?
Gouging is generally done in the context of the market price. If you show up at a gas station in the middle of nowhere, and the attendant finds out you don't have enough gas to make it to the next station and immediately raises the price to $50/gallon, that would be an example of price gouging.
But if you are selling a car at auction and people bid it up to 10% higher than what it sold for yesterday, that's not price gouging. The buyers set the price.
In the oil markets, the buyers are setting the price. Your gas station then takes this price, tacks on taxes, costs, and a 5-10 cent/gallon markup, and that's the price you pay.
quote:
Congress denied the ability for us to drill in the gulf and in Alaska. This drilling would have helped the American people-they said NO. You don't think that was greed? We wouldn't have to rely on foreign oil if WE drilled. Yet, our government doesn't seem fit to take care our it's countrymen.
The US has roughly 1% of the world's oil reserves. Saudi Arabia has about 65%.
You can make the case that the US is the Saudi Arabia of coal and oil shale and push for alternative energy, but you can't pin the blame on the supply side on the US congress when opening up all of the US's currently closed oil reserves would amount to increasing the supply of oil by 1/12th of a major Saudi oilfield (Ghawar).
quote:
The pools of oil found equaled the size of Saudi Arabia!
Perhaps the Bakken Shale field (of which the USGS estimates is 1-5% technically recoverable), but certainly not any conventional reserves.
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RE: Oil hits $135/barrel- what does this mean for the e... - 6/17/2008 6:03:14 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1956
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
jkdjr25...maybe you didn't hear what I said. When the oil price is too low, industry will not invest in the alternate energy development. When the price of oil gets above a certain level and looks like it will remain they will begin the new development. All of this takes in excess of 5 years to bring to market
With oil above $80 and staying there, new sources will come and people will purchase them because they will be a less expensive way.
Bob
I agree with you here, but I think the place where we disagree is how much the government should get involved in all of this.
Whether or not we open up ANWR, I think it's pretty clear that oil won't be able to meet the needs of half the world's 6 billion people trying to live a western lifestyle, which we seem to be gearing up for in the next 15 years. Despite record prices and serious investments in E&P by various oil companies, we have had trouble increasing oil production capacity over the past three or four years. Perhaps we haven't given the market quite enough time to respond, but it does appear, at least, as though the conventional oil market isn't able to offer any more production increases in the face of higher oil demand.
I think that nuclear and wind via hydrogen can at least meet further increases in demand. I believe that Honda has announced the release of a hydrogen-powered vehicle, and I don't think that Toyota will be much further off.
Drilling in ANWR is a short-term solution to a permanent problem that also has the potential to generate a permanent cost- and it appears that a permanent solution is developing itself anyways.
The US already has 17 new nuclear reactor licenses under application, last I checked, and several closed reactors have now reopened. Oil Baron T. Boone Pickens is investing $2 Billion into a wind turbine project, as well, so it appears that the market may be deciding to go the alternative energy route in the first place.
As a side note, this is excellent news for the anti-Al Gore types, as carbon-free wind and nuclear will render carbon-credits moot.
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