Patrick Henry College is personally white (Full Version)

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Mammoo -> Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/22/2008 12:50:50 AM)

I'm venting, but consider this a warning to anyone who hasn't checked the Patrick Henry admissions requirements the last year. My daughter's great love is politics, and we based her high school choices on what Patrick Henry requires ... that is, USED to require, before they became "accredited." She even took distance learning courses from them and made good grades. We found out with a sickening thud that as of the beginning of the 2007-2008 school year (last year) that they now require Algebra I, Algebra II, and Geometry AND (the worst of all) they now have a minimum SAT score requirement including the math portion. It was too late for us, though we hoped they would make an exception. Obviously, they did not, or I wouldn't be venting.

Yes, the college that trains homeschoolers to become future leaders in the world of politics, the college that wins national and international competitions time and again for its astounding debate teams (which obviously implies the young adults are gifted in English, not math), that college now requires its incoming students to waste their time and gifts spending two years studying "advanced math" they will never use in their careers in political science, in order to take a test. One test. So that it can impress the "real world." What's truly ironic is that our daughter did astoundingly well on the English portion of the SAT. Moreover, she did take four years of math - one of which was consumer math and the other was business math - math that actually matters for a lifetime. She scored in the top percentile nationwide on the President's Financial Literacy Quiz, which measures high school students' consumer and business math skills, while the nationwide average was 56%. I keep shaking my head, wondering how many of the students who don't know what the GDP stands for, or the difference between a P&L statement and a balance sheet ... how many of them aced the SAT geometry questions.

Anyway, what I'm venting about is that Patrick Henry sold out. Jumped in with both feet and decided to do it the way the "real world" does it, instead of honoring the individual choices of homeschooling parents who have chosen a different path ... a special path, specially chosen for a particular child. How could a college founded for homeschoolers treat THAT with such disdain? HOW?

Although my daughter was accepted into a great college, nevertheless, it's a public school. After studying for years to go to Patrick Henry, where they would have trained her for leadership, she will now be in a college where she'll have to defend the very constitutional principles she learned through PHC (instead of expanding and building upon them). In My Utmost for His Highest, Oswald Chambers more than once wrote about the danger of pursuing personal whiteness at the expense of knowing and serving God passionately.



cynthia -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/22/2008 12:59:31 AM)

You should write this to PHC.



my3boyshomeschool -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/22/2008 12:40:02 PM)

I agree!! Tell them how you feel. I think it is a shame that they would pass on your daughter. THEIR LOSS!
quote:

ORIGINAL: cynthia

You should write this to PHC.



2jsmom -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/22/2008 1:16:40 PM)

I don't understand why they are doing this. Even if they need to have certain standards for accreditation, many schools will wave some entrance requirements if the student is exceptional in other areas. I agree with the others who have said to write them. Maybe she could take a math class at PHC to get her on track with their new requirements.



creationtalk -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/23/2008 7:49:02 AM)

Go ahead and write with your complaint, but I'm going to play devils advocate here and give some reasons for the move that PH has made.

1) I do not know how you taught these classes, so it may not apply in your case, however, based on my experience with consumer and business math, these are the "dregs" of high school math classes. In the high schools I've dealt with (as a student and as a teacher and as a university math instructor of students who TOOK these classes) these courses were generally not taken by serious college bound students, or if they were, it was in addition to more advanced math courses. For example, I took business math--I completed every problem in the book the first month of the year-long course. Then when an assignment was made, I would copy the answers from my notebook onto another sheet of paper and hand it in. I had the highest score in the class. I could not do that in algebra or geometry.

2) Algebra, at the very least will be a prerequisite for every business class, economics class, science class, or statistics or advanced math class. Geometry teaches valuable reasoning skills and will also be useful/tequired in several classes. Many of the top universities no longer offer algebra to students. Students deficiant in algebra might have to take the course self-study, but this is very difficult and the success rate for students accepted on the condition that they pass these courses is low.

3) Every university/college I have been associated with had a math requirement for graduation beyond algebra. Math teaches reasoning skills needed by every person. For a small school like PH, the cost of teaching the lower math courses such as algebra and geometry may mean the choice of either raising tuition on all students, not offering courses like algebra, or not offering a selection of advanced courses so that the money that would have applied to the instructor's salary can instead go to someone to teach algebra. Ask yourself which of these you would prefer.

4) Your arguement that the the debate teams are gifted in English not math is fallacious. Most of the top debate teams I've known have won through superiour REASONING skills, which are not generally assoicated with English, but with math and science. In some cases, the better orator will win out over the more soundly based arguement, but this is more likely to happen in the general public than a debate comptetition.


From a personal stand point, I would not want a future leader who could not solve simple math problems (requiring algebra). I think that a big part of the problem that we have in this country today is most of our leaders have not had an adequate education in basic math (algebra), reasoning skills (algebra and geometry) or science (requires algebra and geometry).

Instead of complaining about this move by PH, perhaps your daughter should consider taking a year of math at a junior college near home, retake the SAT, then reapplying to PH. Taking classes at a jr college then moving up is a standard practice for students from small high schools that are deficient in areas required for admission at their university of choice.



shadowspring -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/23/2008 1:45:14 PM)

Well, I teach algebra and geometry because it will be needful in the sort of careers my students are talking about pursuing. But I do not see it as necessary for everyone, or the only way one can learn to reason and think logically.

Nor do I see college as the guarantor of our civilisation. [:'(] It is a necessary evil that must be endured in our modern society in order to gain entrance to many professions, since true apprenticeship is neither practiced nor accepted these days.

Until then, if that ever happens, parents/students will be forced to hand over a minimum of 20k up to 250k to educators, many of whom are committed to world views contrary to sound wisdom and godly living. Check out how many books are written to Christian young people with the aim of helping them "survive" college with their faith and good sense still intact.

And though many home school philosophies would seem to support a school that is open to all interests without a lot of seemingly irrelevant prerequisites, I myself never imagined that PHC would be one of them. The have always come across as rather rigid traditionalists in my estimation.

Isn't it interesting how different our perceptions can be?

I would also recommend just sucking it up and spending a gap year catching up on whatever math she needs, if she wants to go to PHC. Then she can retake her SATs or whatever other sort of proof of math proficiency they might want her to show. That is if it really is her dream to attend college there.

I know it is most definitely NOT the place for my students! [sm=eek.gif] We are way too hippified for PHC. [:D]



stellaluna -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/23/2008 8:19:58 PM)

Well...I've never heard of Patrick Henry College, but I took a look at their website and I don't see anything odd about what they're requiring.

Every student takes their core curriculum, which includes Euclidean geometry. I believe that actually picks up where high school geometry ends. This is part of their classical curriculum and I suspect it's been in place for some time. I also suspect this new requirement was put in place because there were a lot of applicants who had not had the three standard years of math.

I totally agree with this:
quote:


based on my experience with consumer and business math, these are the "dregs" of high school math classes. In the high schools I've dealt with (as a student and as a teacher and as a university math instructor of students who TOOK these classes) these courses were generally not taken by serious college bound students,

These courses are typically for students who do not plan on attending college. Algebra I, algebra II and geometry are the basis of college preparatory math study and most students headed to university are advised to take trigonometry, pre-calculus, calculus or geometry II. Even at community colleges, you take a placement test and if your math scores aren't high enough, you're placed in remediation/developmental math. Doesn't matter a lick what your grades were.

And regarding SAT/ACT, the site says "Generally, an applicant’s score on the SAT must exceed 550 per section (or a 24 composite score on the ACT) in order to be considered for admission." Generally to me means there may be some leeway.

I think a year at a community college would be the best way to handle the situation and get better prepared for PHC. Community colleges specialize in getting students ready to transfer to four-year schools and they are very cost-effective.



W.O.F. -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/24/2008 7:40:19 AM)

While I agree that you should write to them with your concerns...I also do not see how the courses of Math they require are a bad thing.

Those are STANDARD math courses required for college prep. And whether you believe it or not...you do use those courses regularly (or at least the principles that they teach) in many professsions regularly...from homemaking to political campaigns.



10SNE1? -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/24/2008 8:18:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mammoo

I'm venting, but consider this a warning to anyone who hasn't checked the Patrick Henry admissions requirements the last year. My daughter's great love is politics, and we based her high school choices on what Patrick Henry requires ... that is, USED to require, before they became "accredited." She even took distance learning courses from them and made good grades. We found out with a sickening thud that as of the beginning of the 2007-2008 school year (last year) that they now require Algebra I, Algebra II, and Geometry AND (the worst of all) they now have a minimum SAT score requirement including the math portion. It was too late for us, though we hoped they would make an exception. Obviously, they did not, or I wouldn't be venting.

Yes, the college that trains homeschoolers to become future leaders in the world of politics, the college that wins national and international competitions time and again for its astounding debate teams (which obviously implies the young adults are gifted in English, not math), that college now requires its incoming students to waste their time and gifts spending two years studying "advanced math" they will never use in their careers in political science, in order to take a test. One test. So that it can impress the "real world." What's truly ironic is that our daughter did astoundingly well on the English portion of the SAT. Moreover, she did take four years of math - one of which was consumer math and the other was business math - math that actually matters for a lifetime. She scored in the top percentile nationwide on the President's Financial Literacy Quiz, which measures high school students' consumer and business math skills, while the nationwide average was 56%. I keep shaking my head, wondering how many of the students who don't know what the GDP stands for, or the difference between a P&L statement and a balance sheet ... how many of them aced the SAT geometry questions.

Anyway, what I'm venting about is that Patrick Henry sold out. Jumped in with both feet and decided to do it the way the "real world" does it, instead of honoring the individual choices of homeschooling parents who have chosen a different path ... a special path, specially chosen for a particular child. How could a college founded for homeschoolers treat THAT with such disdain? HOW?

Although my daughter was accepted into a great college, nevertheless, it's a public school. After studying for years to go to Patrick Henry, where they would have trained her for leadership, she will now be in a college where she'll have to defend the very constitutional principles she learned through PHC (instead of expanding and building upon them). In My Utmost for His Highest, Oswald Chambers more than once wrote about the danger of pursuing personal whiteness at the expense of knowing and serving God passionately.


Ok, I have never been a homeschooler. My four kids have all gone to public school and I rarely glance at this folder.

However, my second child ( only son) recently graduated from a very well known public university with a degree in Political Science and Economics( dual major).

Economics is extremely math intensive. And courses on Economic theory are a key component of any good Political Science education. The main reason ds was able to add the second major ( Econ) and graduate in four years was because several of the econ classes were a required part of his Poly Sci program.

The notion that "future leaders" in our society and government don't need higher math skills is frightening. Having now sent three of our four kids to college, I can assure you that Algebra II will not prepare your daughter for a entry level math class at a good university. High school Calculus is a must for any student who isn't prepared to spent time "catching up" to the expected competency level.



shadowspring -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/24/2008 11:08:11 AM)

This thread is not supposed to be about college and the necessity or lack thereof of higher math, so I think we are digressing here....[8|]



sen10tious -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/24/2008 11:44:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 10SNE1?

High school Calculus is a must for any student who isn't prepared to spent time "catching up" to the expected competency level.

With the rampant amount of grade-inflation going on in the public schools, that statement is probably accurate for public school kids. However, if your daughter has really nailed down the concepts of Algebra I and understands the basics of geometry, she ought to be able to get through the SAT without tanking.

(and since it is math credit & math SAT scores that kept the daughter from being accepted, I don’t see a discussion of that deficiency as being a digression.)

I don’t think a college degree would be worth much if it is conferred without ever having exposed a person to some higher mathematical thinking and reasoning patterns.

But I surely wouldn’t let your daughter give up on her God-given dream of going to Patrick Henry so easily. You are a homeschooler, for goodness sake! You have options!
* First, realize that many kids take five years to get through a baccalaureate degree, so take the time-pressure off the situation. Stop thinking "it’s too late," because that is an artificial barrier when compared to a lifetime career.
* You can plan her public college program with a lot of math up front, saving the political science courses for later and keeping an eye toward transferring. She can use the time to work the bugs out of the demands of college-style studying and gain an advantage of maturity for when she can enter PHC.
* You could take another year at home and add the algebra & geometry she needs to pass the SAT; her strong general math/business math background has probably given her calculating skill that will let her complete algebra faster than a regular high school kid. And even though most of the time math is sequential and progressive, algebra I and geometry could be taken at the same time. When she is not doing math class she can begin real-world experience through a job or volunteer work that will look really good on her application. This is a big election year so there should be tons of opportunities around.
* Find out exactly what PHC requires and realize this could be a test from the Lord; is your daughter really willing to go for what she believes is God's choice of school for her, or is she willing to settle for second?



W.O.F. -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/24/2008 12:39:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shadowspring

This thread is not supposed to be about college and the necessity or lack thereof of higher math, so I think we are digressing here....[8|]

true to a point..the mother in the OP stated that she felt that the college was wrong in expecting students to take higher math classes in order to attend the college since such math would not be used by a political science major...the post about math and college was relevant as it showed the link to political science majors and the need YES THE NEED for higher math courses.


Again...she needs to write to the school with her concerns and see if there is an alternative entrance agreement her daughter can make to attend the school of her dreams.....

she will probably need to do remedial math at best.



stellaluna -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/24/2008 9:00:33 PM)

If the OP's daughter wants to attend PHC so badly--which it sounds like she does--then she needs to do whatever it takes to go there. If she needs to take more math and raise her SAT score, then so be it. The OP thinks "higher" math is a "waste of time." PHC and most other colleges believe otherwise. Her daughter may very well run up against this same problem no matter where she goes to school.

There is no harm in writing to PHC or talking to an advisor to see if an exception can be made, but I do wonder...their new policies went into effect a year ago. Why wasn't the daughter taking extra math to comply?



W.O.F. -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/25/2008 9:38:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

If the OP's daughter wants to attend PHC so badly--which it sounds like she does--then she needs to do whatever it takes to go there. If she needs to take more math and raise her SAT score, then so be it. The OP thinks "higher" math is a "waste of time." PHC and most other colleges believe otherwise. Her daughter may very well run up against this same problem no matter where she goes to school.

There is no harm in writing to PHC or talking to an advisor to see if an exception can be made, but I do wonder...their new policies went into effect a year ago. Why wasn't the daughter taking extra math to comply?

EXACTLY....if it was really her desire to go there...she would have stayed on top of the requirements and made sure that she qualified. Also, one wonders if it isn't just the math courses, but perhaps overall SAT score that did her in simply because they do make exceptions if only one area is low if the student shows the intiative to do the remedial work needed.

I think the title of the thread has a lot to say about it....while the OP states it is the math issue...I think it comes down to they think there is a racial bias instead.

While it is true that standardized tests can draw the lines among the ethnic groups....it isn't as clear cut as one might have once thought. It comes down to the effort any given student makes to study, learn and expand themselves...which is why, stereotypically Asians do better than any other ethnic group on SATs and ACTs....



crownlaurel -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/27/2008 12:54:46 AM)

I'm confused by what the OP calls "personal whiteness." I'm pretty sure Chamber's use of personal whiteness was different from WEB Du Bois' use of the term.

If I understand it correctly, and I may not because I am not a major Chambers follower, his use of the term means holiness or spotlessness rather than a racial indication.

I'm not sure what either sense of the term has to do with a college requiring math courses.

I hated math in high school and thought I'd never need it. I still struggle over matrices and logic problems. When I was in college taking psychology courses, I had to take statistics. Suddenly so much of what I'd "learned" in algebra and other classes began to make sense. I have every intention of teaching my children algebra and other higher math (even if I have to hire a tutor for calculus) and it has nothing to do with whether they go to college. Math is a very necessary element in the real world. It is important for everything from grocery shopping to project planning to church to politics.

I am sure it must be frustrating to have planned around what the college required only to have that change, but your daughter could take those courses now and apply to go to college in the spring. You may even be able to speak with admissions to see if she can do a dual enrollment and take college courses while she finishes her required math courses.



lifeisgoodwgod -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (5/28/2008 4:47:20 PM)

We are just starting high school next year, but all I have read about college requirements states they need higher level math courses. My dd loves music and history, but she will be required to take Algebra 1 & 2 and geometry and maybe another math course. Whether my dd goes to college or not she will be prepared.



locomom -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (6/11/2008 4:13:26 PM)

Algebra and geometry are subjects people use regularly in everyday life.



abby_girl -> RE: Patrick Henry College is personally white (6/23/2008 8:11:40 AM)

As a recent college graduate from an institution that has an educational philosophy somewhat similar to PHC, I have just a couple of things to bring to the discussion. I'm sure you are very disappointed and emotionally involved right now, but I think you should try to look at this from a different perspective.

I looked at the application online. I think PHC is trying to make it easy on homeschoolers. They are trying to be an academically rigorous college. It is no wonder they have difficult admissions requirements for the one subject it's pretty easy to teach from home. The science and language requirements are no more than 1/2 of what would be required at any other rigorous institution. Have you looked at other schools like PHC to see what their average requirements are? I believe a 21 is the national average on the ACT and PHC requires a 24 for the math section - only 3 points above average. Why doesn't your daughter study study study study and take the SAT or ACT again?

Furthermore, the ability to study something and do well in difficult classes is an important lesson and mathematics was probably the easiest way for PHC to check that. I was homeschooled K-12 so I speak from experience that most hs'ers can't teach advanced science or languages. Maybe they are looking not just at the math skills but at the academic character skills that would be evidenced in good scores on upper-level math.

I'll admit here that I don't really like PHC. I've known a few people who go there and I have never thought it helped any of them "grow up" like friends who went to other schools. I've heard horror stories from several different people who attended at diffferent times about an incredibly immature social atmosphere there. I don't know these things firsthand, so I wouldn't discourage someone from seeking admittance. However, I will say that I don't think PHC has sold out and I also think it's outrageous that anyone would say that. You're blaming this on their recent accreditation? Why would you pay money for something that WASN'T!?!? Strict standards is how PHC got the accreditation, which provides more respect for PHC from other colleges and potential employers.

Did you homeschool only with the PHC requirements in mind? Did you look at other schools? I'm not saying she shouldn't want to go to PHC, but don't you think she would be better served to shop around, so if she decides she still wants to go to PHC she'll know for sure it was her best choice. Maybe you guys did that, but I just thought I'd check. If a rigorous liberal arts education and a future in politics is what she wants (and I do highly recommend it!) you guys should also check out Grove City, Hillsdale, Kings College, etc., and see if one of those institutions has more flexible admissions policies.



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