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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 3:52:52 PM
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Harvie
Posts: 1219
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: california
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Shame on your Harvie! You missed several key points. Now hand me over those rubber duckies and you go back to page one and start all over again! 
I have reconsidered, recapitulated, reconstituted, reconoitered, recanted, reallocated, re-evaluated, reanalyzed, realized, rejoiced and repented, and have decided to donate 10% of my ducks to the universal church.
How's that?
_____________________________
 PRAISE THE LORD -- MY HUSBAND IS BACK FROM IRAQ
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 3:54:10 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
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What about the stock market?
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 3:54:50 PM
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shouldknowbetter
Posts: 350
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quote:
ORIGINAL: silvrstridr
also, have you read the entire Bible? If so, what version (s)? And what do you proclaim yourself as (catholic, pentecostal, etc etc)
Yes I have... Several but mostly KJV from front to back and not just read... Studied is more the thought here...
Your other comments prior are also baseless... Logic of man that clings to false doctrine and attempts to reason them from worldly logic as acceptable....
For instance, We've heard "God never asked for less than 10%"... Have we not...?
Well anyone looking for the truth better read Numbers 31... then read about Joseph and His setting up the economic system in Egypt... A man full of the Spirit of God and never set up tithing for church.... Gen 47
This last tidbit is for those other logicians like Euty...
True or False? 10. Since everyone is held to the same standard, tithing is fair to everyone.
False. Tithing is incredibly unfair. Ten-percent of the income of a poor person is a great burden, while ten-percent of the income of a rich person may be no burden at all. If a person only has a $1000 a month income, then $100 of that income will affect their lifestyle and may even impact their ability to take care of their children’s basic needs and pay their bills. If a person has a $10,000 a month income then giving $1,000 per month should have little affect on their lifestyle since they should have a good amount of disposable income beyond their basic needs. If a person has a $100,000 a month income, then $10,000 a month has no appreciable affect on their lifestyle at all.
HK,
Go look at http://www.tithing.christian-things.com/
_____________________________
Seek Wisdom from God in prayer and scripture
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:08:30 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: silvrstridr
say I make 2000 a month after taxes. What should I contribute and to whom for my tithe?
Tithing is a personal issue, not a biblical mandate for us today. For those who believe that tithing is a requirement, the insurmountable stumbling block of income versus increase is still present. Wage earners receive their wages not as a form of increase, but as an exchange for their time and labor. This alone places our wages outside any ability to compare them to the increase of the fields and herds.
Also, it isn't the responsibility of the Church to solve all the world's problems. All we should be doing is being that salt and light Jesus spoke of, and seeing to the needs of those in our midst.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:11:27 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
The Church is governed by Christ. (theocary)
The Church has a promised land.
I thought the Church was us, not a "land". Jesus isn't going to marry some "land". I still wonder what any of this has to do with an alleged requirement to support man-made, organized religion and its man-made leadership.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:14:53 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
No Aaron did not tithe he collected tithes because he was the High Priest. Today Jesus Christ is our High Priest.
Abraham tithed to Melchezdeck (sp) who was both the King and High Priest.
Today Jesus Christ is our King and High Priest.
Principle shows itself here. Paying tithes to the High Priest.
Well, I didn't see any pro-required-tithing defenders jumping onto this strange bandwagon. You still have a hard road to go when trying to defend the idea that giving to man-made, organized religion is somehow synonymous with giving to Christ.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:16:41 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Out of your 185 post I believe only two are not debating the tithe. I think you actions have given us a clue. Plus you "avoided" his question which tells me even more.
These cliche' one-liners still fail to posit your view with undeniable proof.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:16:47 PM
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shouldknowbetter
Posts: 350
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original quote: P31W
quote:
We also know that the early church met in the Temple and Paul preached in the temple. To teach/preach in the temple one "had" to tithe. So they were tithing. Why would I think under grace these folks would even consider giving God less. Even the "pagan's" gave their gods a tenth. Why would the Gentiles not have the desire to give The One True God more than they gave in their pagan worship?
This is just plain false assumption... Paul was not a farmer or a herdsman... A tithe paid from any other source was a sin.
Show me one scripture OT or NT that this is true. That to teach and preach in the temple one "had" to pay a tithe... You said yourself that Aaron did not pay tithes and He definitely preahed and taught in the temple. So you yourself have shown your assumption as false.
When you can't find that one verse, go read read about the fish with the money in it's mouth that paid the annual temple tax for Jesus and Peter... Mat 17:24
_____________________________
Seek Wisdom from God in prayer and scripture
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:17:16 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
Your other comments prior are also baseless... Logic of man that clings to false doctrine and attempts to reason them from worldly logic as acceptable....
For instance, We've heard "God never asked for less than 10%"... Have we not...?
Well anyone looking for the truth better read Numbers 31... then read about Joseph and His setting up the economic system in Egypt... A man full of the Spirit of God and never set up tithing for church.... Gen 47
Egypt was a pagan nation. Joseph collected for the Pharaoh. There was such thing as "a church" at that time.
Numbers 31 discusses the spoils of war and yes they did tithe. Moses told the people to give the Lord his portion from the plunders of war. Read Numbers 18
tithe.christian thing yep I agree with that because it sure ain't a non Christian thing.
sad sad sad
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:19:33 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
To respond to your question I will point you to 1 Corinthians 9.
Well, I can see what it says, but I don't see that it supports your position. Can you be more specific?
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:21:12 PM
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shouldknowbetter
Posts: 350
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Your other comments prior are also baseless... Logic of man that clings to false doctrine and attempts to reason them from worldly logic as acceptable....
For instance, We've heard "God never asked for less than 10%"... Have we not...?
Well anyone looking for the truth better read Numbers 31... then read about Joseph and His setting up the economic system in Egypt... A man full of the Spirit of God and never set up tithing for church.... Gen 47
Egypt was a pagan nation. Joseph collected for the Pharaoh. There was such thing as "a church" at that time.
Numbers 31 discusses the spoils of war and yes they did tithe. Moses told the people to give the Lord his portion from the plunders of war. Read Numbers 18
tithe.christian thing yep I agree with that because it sure ain't a non Christian thing.
sad sad sad
Dividing the Spoils
25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep or goats. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep, goats or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle." 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:22:25 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
This is just plain false assumption... Paul was not a farmer or a herdsman... A tithe paid from any other source was a sin.
Show me one scripture OT or NT that this is true. That to teach and preach in the temple one "had" to pay a tithe... You said yourself that Aaron did not pay tithes and He deninitely preahed and taught n the temple. So you yourself have shown your assumption as false.
When you can't find that one verse, go read read about the fish with the money in it's mouth that paid the annual temple tax for Jesus and Peter... Mat 17:24
These are not thing you are going to find in scripture. Jewish history will teach one this. You know the books of the law the Pharasees would use to interpet the law. That is where you can find this. Just as in scripture you will not discover that Tax Collectors were not allowed to worship in the temple.
Paul was a "top notch well repsected Pharasee". He DID tithe otherwise he would have been viewed with distain. To "be" a Pharasee one had to tithe...you know of dill and mint.
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:22:53 PM
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shouldknowbetter
Posts: 350
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Your other comments prior are also baseless... Logic of man that clings to false doctrine and attempts to reason them from worldly logic as acceptable....
For instance, We've heard "God never asked for less than 10%"... Have we not...?
Well anyone looking for the truth better read Numbers 31... then read about Joseph and His setting up the economic system in Egypt... A man full of the Spirit of God and never set up tithing for church.... Gen 47
Egypt was a pagan nation. Joseph collected for the Pharaoh. There was such thing as "a church" at that time.
Numbers 31 discusses the spoils of war and yes they did tithe. Moses told the people to give the Lord his portion from the plunders of war. Read Numbers 18
tithe.christian thing yep I agree with that because it sure ain't a non Christian thing.
sad sad sad
Dividing the Spoils
25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep or goats. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep, goats or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle." 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
Tithe - tenth right... That's 1 in 10....
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:28:21 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should earn their living by the gospel.
Can you explain how this has any implicit or direct ties to man-made, organized religion? Are you assuming that some dude who has the charisma to convince a group of people to stand behind a building project automatically qualifies as a leader within the Church, and therefore a true minister of Christ? How many of the so-called "pastors" within organized religion are true minister of Christ?
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:33:34 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
Dividing the Spoils
25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep or goats. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep, goats or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle." 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
Go to the top of the passage 12,000 soldiers.
Go to the bottom of the passage 0 were killed.
Do you know the population of Israel that remained at home to be able to calculate if God did the math right or now?
vs 12 of this passage shows us they brought all the spoils of war to Moses and the High Priest. Then God told Moses how to distribute the spoils.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/25/2005 4:39:52 PM >
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:34:06 PM
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shouldknowbetter
Posts: 350
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
This is just plain false assumption... Paul was not a farmer or a herdsman... A tithe paid from any other source was a sin.
Show me one scripture OT or NT that this is true. That to teach and preach in the temple one "had" to pay a tithe... You said yourself that Aaron did not pay tithes and He deninitely preahed and taught n the temple. So you yourself have shown your assumption as false.
When you can't find that one verse, go read read about the fish with the money in it's mouth that paid the annual temple tax for Jesus and Peter... Mat 17:24
These are not thing you are going to find in scripture. Jewish history will teach one this. You know the books of the law the Pharasees would use to interpet the law. That is where you can find this. Just as in scripture you will not discover that Tax Collectors were not allowed to worship in the temple.
Paul was a "top notch well repsected Pharasee". He DID tithe otherwise he would have been viewed with distain. To "be" a Pharasee one had to tithe...you know of dill and mint.
Gee I'm wrong again.... Imagiine that...
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
I guess Jesus was wrong to then.... Two men a pharisee and a "TAX COLLECTOR" went up to the temple to pray.... The tithing Pharisee was rebuked and the lowly tax collector left justified and without even offering a gift....... Luk 18 by the way.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:34:18 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Oh the temple Solomon built! It was something else! Would cost millions to build today! GOD told them to build it! It was pleasing to God for them to build the extravagant building.
I don't know what Bible you read, but the KJV says otherwise:
1 Chr. 28:2-3
2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:
3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.
Did David take away the credit for the idea of a temple? No. It was his to begin with, not God's. David recognozed the folly of thinking that a mere building could hold the Glory of God for His dwelling place.
quote:
Today God still speaks to his people. He at times lays on their hearts to build for him buildings that are to be dedicated to Him and to help further his kingdom's work.
Can you prove this? If so, I would really like to see it.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:37:49 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
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quote:
Can you explain how this has any implicit or direct ties to man-made, organized religion? Are you assuming that some dude who has the charisma to convince a group of people to stand behind a building project automatically qualifies as a leader within the Church, and therefore a true minister of Christ? How many of the so-called "pastors" within organized religion are true minister of Christ?
HK
No I can't explain it to you or SKB. Your minds have hardened.
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:42:25 PM
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silvrstridr
Posts: 87
Joined: 7/27/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heavenskeys
quote:
ORIGINAL: silvrstridr
In my opinion, based on the bible, your thoughts of sacrificing tithe to pay off your debt is not biblical. Tithe doesn't have to be to that 6 million dollar church, it could be as simple as taking 10% and walking around the ghetto giving homeless people food and telling them Jesus loves them and wants them to have a better life.
Although I agree with some of what you're saying, I will have to disagree with your understanding of priorities. Paul said this about this topic, in support of the other poster whom you disgreed with:
1 Tim 5:8, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."
The tithe was never about sacrificial giving. The tithe was ONLY of the increase. If a man had only nine calves born in the year, then he was not required to pay a tithe. If he had 19 born in a year, he was required to give only one as a tithe, not two. They didn't "round up" as we do today in mathematics.
Now, what teachings from the NT are you relying upon for support of what I disagreed with?
HK
You need to think about it more. You answered yourself in your post. When he had 19 born in a year he still gave one, he didnt keep it in order to have more food for the winter.
I'm saying that if you are in overwhelming debt, you should be taking from your own lifestyle before you take from God.
Your verse is taken out of context and twisted. That chapter is about widows, and it is referring to providing for them.
_____________________________
We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:47:36 PM
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silvrstridr
Posts: 87
Joined: 7/27/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heavenskeys
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Mt 23:23 -
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy, and faith. These things should have been done without neglecting the others.
Lu 11:42 -
"But woe to you Pharisees! You give a tenth of mint, rue, and every kind of herb, and you bypass justice and love for God. These things you should have done without neglecting the others.
1 Cor. 9:10a
Or isn't He really saying it for us? Yes, this is written for us,
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness,
This is mighty convenient when manipulatively used to your advantage. Jesus was addressing a people who were still under the Law, therefore bound to obedience to all its commands, tithing being one of them. Since Jesus was upholding ALL the Law, do you wear garments woven with mofe than one type of fiber? Do you offer up sacrifices?
Sorry, but the obvious element of convenience is much too obvious in all this.
HK
HK maybe you need to learn how to read scripture contextually better or something, i see alot of mistakes.
These verses in matthew and luke are saying that God places more importance on the faith than the works (tithing), however, he says "without neglecting the others" meaning we are still to tithe 1/10.
_____________________________
We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:54:36 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Numbers 31 discusses the spoils of war and yes they did tithe.
Wrong. They gave 1/500th, which is VASTLY smaller than a tithe (tenth). You appear to be proportionally challenged. Perhaps you should go to the library and refresh your understanding of the difference bwtween 1/10th and 1/500th (which is not a tithe).
quote:
Moses told the people to give the Lord his portion from the plunders of war. Read Numbers 18
Yes, but it was nowhere near a tenth. Either you didn'r read that chapter carefully, and therefore missed the obvious, or you're downright dishonest for the sake of winning the argument. Which it is can only be left up to you. I would hope that you have enough humility to admit your error.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 4:55:05 PM
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silvrstridr
Posts: 87
Joined: 7/27/2005
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also, I'd like to ask, why is this such a dire issue to you HK? Do you feel conviction from God in this area or something? Alot of your posts (and there are ALOT of them) could be taken offensively because you have such strong opinion towards this subject, I was just curious... I mean, most ppl don't even put this much thought into tithing beacuse of its irrelevance to salvation.
_____________________________
We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 5:00:31 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Can you explain how this has any implicit or direct ties to man-made, organized religion? Are you assuming that some dude who has the charisma to convince a group of people to stand behind a building project automatically qualifies as a leader within the Church, and therefore a true minister of Christ? How many of the so-called "pastors" within organized religion are true minister of Christ?
HK
No I can't explain it to you or SKB. Your minds have hardened.
I think it safe to say that this has nothing to do with the alleged hardness of our minds so much as it has to do with your inability to defend your position from scripture. This is too easy...a copout. I asked this same question long before you ever assumed my mind was hardened, and you refused to answer it back then in this very thread, so the portrait is now complete.
HK
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