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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 10:59:48 AM
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silvrstridr
Posts: 87
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter
quote:
ORIGINAL: silvrstridr
so, shouldknowbetter, would you post EXACTLY what you think should be done as far as tithes go, according to the bible, applicable to the way modern Christianity works?
Tithes are and always have been legislated (required) giving to the God selected recipient. They were collected at the national level and came right off the top of the increase of the citizen and were reconciled annaully. They had little to do with church operation.
We all pay tithes today, they are regulated required giving at the national and state level. They come right off the top of our increase and are reconciled annually. Our God appointed recipient is the state and federal government.
These funds today are use in a very similar manner to in the OT times under the Mosaic Law. Especially when considering 1 Sam 8...
What we call "church funding" funds have always been freewill offerings from the heart as each is prospered by God to give, not of necessity (regulation). God judges the giver not the size of the gift.
..... So pick a point to discuss and I'll show you the scriptural support (again)....
Can you elaborate more please. I want to know exact details of what you mean. For example, say I make 2000 a month after taxes. What should I contribute and to whom for my tithe?
quote:
ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter
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I still have faith that the Church is the most effective unit in the Army vs human misery and that we should give it our time and money.
I'm glad you have faith in the church, however
http://www.usaid.gov/locations/asia_near_east/tsunami/
I just did a quick sum and tax payers through the government contributed $1.748 BILLION
Yes Billion with a capital B, Billion... Remember our government is founded on Judeo-Christian values.
I don't know if that counts the military effort?
The church is just not equiped to handle things like that. This is another Theocracy filtering problem. Yes we are called to give and help the poor and needy and we should. We just should not discount the work done outside the church as if it is of no value or not sponsored by God.
If every American Christian contributed 10% of their green like they are supposed to, we could bring this entire world out of poverty. Without the aid of the Government.
_____________________________
We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 11:02:00 AM
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silvrstridr
Posts: 87
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also, have you read the entire Bible? If so, what version (s)? And what do you proclaim yourself as (catholic, pentecostal, etc etc)
_____________________________
We are here on Earth, only to love one another, and bring them to Christ. Nothing else matters, so why argue about things that don't matter?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 11:08:55 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2441
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quote:
We no longer have a Theocracy or live in the Promised Land.
False
The Church is governed by Christ. (theocary)
The Church has a promised land.
quote:
These funds today are use in a very similar manner to in the OT times under the Mosaic Law. Especially when considering 1 Sam 8...
First Samuel 8 is about God warning the people about how they would be TAXED by a King. They rejected him and he was warning them. They had to both tithe to God and pay taxes to the King. Jesus said give the Ceaser what is Ceaser's (pay your government taxes) and give to God what is God's (tithes and offerings)
quote:
Tithes are and always have been legislated (required) giving to the God selected recipient. They were collected at the national level and came right off the top of the increase of the citizen and were reconciled annaully. They had little to do with church operation.
Tithes were always a voluntary act on the part of the tither. There was no punishment given in the law for someone who refused to tithe or give less than a tithe. Mal. discusses how the people wearied God with their lack of having a heart towards him which showed itself in one way by the gifts they gave him. God told them to offer those gifts to "their government" to see if they would even accept them.
Shew this is just the "tip" of the iceburg. Don't study scripture with the idea that one wants to get out of tithing. It twist everything.
quote:
I just did a quick sum and tax payers through the government contributed $1.748 BILLION
Yes Billion with a capital B, Billion... Remember our government is founded on Judeo-Christian values.
I don't know if that counts the military effort?
The church is just not equiped to handle things like that. This is another Theocracy filtering problem. Yes we are called to give and help the poor and needy and we should. We just should not discount the work done outside the church as if it is of no value or not sponsored by God.
Paying your taxes is not tithing or giving to God. It's obeying him but it's NOT giving to him.
is another Theocracy filtering problem - yes it is. The CHURCH is governed by God. We obey God first according to his word and obey the gov. if they are inline with his word. If the gov. does not allow us to spread the good news of Jesus Christ we do what the early church did in ignoring the worldly government and obeying out High Priest and King Jesus Christ in spreading the Word.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/25/2005 11:12:12 AM >
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 11:19:18 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2441
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quote:
Go look for the answer to this question yourself if your really interested in the truth...
Did Aaron and his family pay a tithe?
No Aaron did not tithe he collected tithes because he was the High Priest. Today Jesus Christ is our High Priest.
Abraham tithed to Melchezdeck (sp) who was both the King and High Priest.
Today Jesus Christ is our King and High Priest.
Principle shows itself here. Paying tithes to the High Priest.
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Enter here Mal 3 and the promise... Well... What do you suppose would happen if we all quit paying taxes? Total economic collapse maybe. But we do pay taxes and this has made the country/nation/people strong and prosperous.
What! The tithes were to go to the temple! They were under FOREIGN RULE. They had to do whatever their rulers told them to do. They were giving God less than what was worthy. That is what Mal. 3 is about. People whose heart was cold towards God and it showing itself by their substandard gifts to him. Not fit for our God.
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The word or concept of tithing does not appear anywhere in Acts or any other book of the NT except where Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for not knowing the weightier matters...
Jesus told the Pharasees they "should tithe" without neglecting the other more important things. They were not wrong tithing according to Jesus. They "should" do that he said.
The "word tithe" ROFL yes the Word tithe is mentioned by Christ and then in the book of hebrews. We also know that Jesus spoke "about" the tithe when the pharasees were asking Jesus if they should pay their taxes...in other words...who do we pay tribute to God or govenment....Jesus told them both.
We also know that the early church met in the Temple and Paul preached in the temple. To teach/preach in the temple one "had" to tithe. So they were tithing. Why would I think under grace these folks would even consider giving God less. Even the "pagan's" gave their gods a tenth. Why would the Gentiles not have the desire to give The One True God more than they gave in their pagan worship?
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/25/2005 11:41:04 AM >
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 11:50:58 AM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: silvrstridr
heavens, can I ask why you so persistently argue this thread? Can you establish your religious background and religious beliefs on tithing before constantly debating any further please? Only reason I ask this, is because when I see you making 5 posts to everyone elses 1, it starts to seem fanatical, or as if you have some sort of personal vendetta against tithing in church.
Fanatical? Your barometer indicates that I'm fanatical simply because I only come here occasionally, and have several posts to which I choose to reply, which forces my posts to be listed one after another? If I had nothing better in life to do than to sit around and wait for new posts in this thread, then perhaps your accusation would have merit.
Sheesh! Take a clue, man.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 11:58:05 AM
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P31W
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Out of your 185 post I believe only two are not debating the tithe. I think you actions have given us a clue. Plus you "avoided" his question which tells me even more.
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 1:00:33 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
GAHHHH!!!
Flashback! Flashback!
My eyes...my eyes....
Ahem.
Sorry, you may now go back to the never-ending tithe debate.
Good point. It does make one wonder why pro-required-tithing people continue to argue their case in the face of such overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 1:07:46 PM
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Harvie
Posts: 1234
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From: california
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Wow. I actually read my way through this entire thread and now my head hurts.
Bottom line: If you want to donate money to your church, donate money to your church.
If you want to donate your money to other ministries, donate your money to them.
If you want to donate your money to your local Rescue Mission, donate it.
If you want to donate your money to help the poor, the widows, orphans, donate it.
If you want to donate your money to a no-kill animal shelter, donate it.
If you want to donate 10% of your gross, your net, your tax refund, donate it.
If you want to donate more or less, then donate it.
If you need guidance on donating money, seek God in prayer and through scripture.
Understand that ALL money belongs to God, and He may ask you someday to account for it.
Donating money does not get anyone into heaven.
Not donating money does not keep anyone out of heaven.
There. Does that cover it? (happy sigh)
_____________________________
 PLEASE PRAY FOR MY DEPLOYED (AGAIN) HUSBAND ... THIS IS HIS FIFTH TIME
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 1:08:32 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: silvrstridr
In my opinion, based on the bible, your thoughts of sacrificing tithe to pay off your debt is not biblical. Tithe doesn't have to be to that 6 million dollar church, it could be as simple as taking 10% and walking around the ghetto giving homeless people food and telling them Jesus loves them and wants them to have a better life.
Although I agree with some of what you're saying, I will have to disagree with your understanding of priorities. Paul said this about this topic, in support of the other poster whom you disgreed with:
1 Tim 5:8, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."
The tithe was never about sacrificial giving. The tithe was ONLY of the increase. If a man had only nine calves born in the year, then he was not required to pay a tithe. If he had 19 born in a year, he was required to give only one as a tithe, not two. They didn't "round up" as we do today in mathematics.
Now, what teachings from the NT are you relying upon for support of what I disagreed with?
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 1:14:39 PM
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P31W
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You are forgetting first fruits! If it was the first born to ALL the animals they were to be dedicated to the Lord! In other words ALL NINE were to be given back to the Lord.
quote:
You appear to be willing to apply copious amounts of assumption in all this. It's one thing to be worthy of reaping benefit from one's service to the Lord, but you cannot show us one verse where the elders ceased to make their own living, therefore ceasing to be productive citizens within their respective communities. "Reaping benefit" doesn't automatically translate into the entirety of one's sustenance being a burden upon fellow believers. If an elder became itinerant in order to help maintain unity among the fellowships within a given city or locale, then they were certainly worthy of reaping benefit for survival. I don't think one will find anything akin to Robert Tilton in those passages. Far too much assumption is made these days concerning the elders, and even Paul, and what they received. Trying to force today's historic practice of anywhere from one to an entire group of men making their entire living from the people of a given man-made organization, well, you will search in vain to find any such parellel. Organized religion, and all its trappings, are nowhere exemplififed in any of the writings of the apostles.
Don't get me wrong. I have no problem with a man who is itinerant making his whole living from the support of fellow believers, because making a living while on the move is almost impossible. Local elders, who give two to three twenty minute sermons a week are not automatically qualified as biblical leaders, nor automatically worthy of recieving of the primary portion of believer's giving. Anyone can attend cemetary school, or Bible college, stand up and project professional sounding, aristotilian rhetoric, and not at all be called of God. I challenge anyone to show me where local elders were allowed to leech their entire living off fellow believers.
I can sell candy on the side and reap financial benefit from my labors in order to supplement the income from my full time job in order to cover costs, but that doesn't mean that I quite my full time job and demand that my pittly candy sales suddenly support all my expenditures.
And this was your reply to what I was saying about 1 Corintians being to "outside the local fellowship". OK so avoid talking about that FACT and jump to something else.
To respond to your question I will point you to 1 Corinthians 9.
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_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 1:18:48 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
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Overall, you made some good points.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter
It's clear and I think all agree that tithes went for much more than daily expense for church operations in the OT.
For the sake of clarification from my own perspective of what's written in the OT, the temple upkeep was provided by way of a seperate offering to the temple treasury, not the tithe.
quote:
Tithes in the OT went for specific purposes that we do not have today on the church level.
You can say that again. The Church (which is not the same thing as what most call their "church", small "c") was not focused upon real estate and buildings as religionists are today. Those who are truly spiritual lay little to no importance upon buildings so much as they do meeting needs, bringing the lost to Christ, and discipling new converts. The conceot that shepherding and discipling is the job of only a professional class (clergy) finds no expression in scriptures.
quote:
Tithes were never confined to "the church" in the OT. They were collected at the national level and were a requirement.
Very true indeed.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 1:21:22 PM
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P31W
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1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Don't we have the right to eat and drink? 5 Don't we have the right to be accompanied by a Christian wife, like the other apostles, the Lord's brothers, and Cephas? 6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working? 7 Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its fruit? Or who shepherds a flock and does not drink the milk from the flock? 8 Am I saying this from a human perspective? Doesn't the law also say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Do not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain. Is God really concerned with oxen? 10 Or isn't He really saying it for us? Yes, this is written for us, because he who plows ought to plow in hope, and he who threshes should do so in hope of sharing the crop. 11 If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12 If others share this authority over you, don't we even more? However, we have not used this authority; instead we endure everything so that we will not hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Do you not know that those who perform the temple services eat the food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the offerings of the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should earn their living by the gospel.
15 But I have used none of these rights, and I have not written this to make it happen that way for me.
quote:
I challenge anyone to show me where local elders were allowed to leech their entire living off fellow believers.
God speaking through Paul called it a RIGHT.
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 1:26:43 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
By outsider I mean someone who judges the organized acitives of the organized church from the "outside" rather than being an active participant.
Is there anyone here who has not yet been on the inside, therefore qualified to judge it for what it is? Do you know of someone here?
quote:
they call "evidence" what they see a Chuch building looks like instead of knowing any Facts from first hand experience. Gossip and slander is what I call that type of talk.
So, are you saying that there's a legitimate reason for casting so much of our resources into extravagant architecture? What might that be? You make it sound like there is such a reason, so please share it.
quote:
BTW, I notice that you left off the copy of paste of my reply the FRIST sentence that put the rest of my paragraph in context. It was discussing that when we tithe the money goes to more than just keeping up buildings or paying the Lord's ministers.....notice you cut that out and then said you gave to everything that you left in the cut and paste......but not what you left out.
I fully understood what you said. What you missed in what I was saying is that applying one red cent to the building what should go for the meeting of needs is simply wrong, in and of itself. No amount of emotional appeal will ever make this reversal of biblical example and command to be any more right.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 1:29:12 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: christiancapitalist
i'm sorry for my extreme comment. i didn't come come across the way i meant. what i meant was this: I'm tired of fat, lazy christian taking up space in church. you know whom i'm talking about. they sit in church every sunday, feeling good as they soak up teaching and fellowship. they are always too "busy' to volunteer or help others. they'll show up for potlucks and parties, but street ministry of ministering to the homeless? nah, that's for "other people" to do. they don't tithe, they don't give to missions. i'm not talking about baby christians. i'm talking about people who've been saved for years. i'm sorry if i've offended anyone. i posted without thinking.
Do you have Divine insight into the fact that they aren't doing anything outside your immediate, physical vision?
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 1:36:59 PM
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P31W
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Oh the temple Solomon built! It was something else! Would cost millions to build today! GOD told them to build it! It was pleasing to God for them to build the extravagant building.
Today God still speaks to his people. He at times lays on their hearts to build for him buildings that are to be dedicated to Him and to help further his kingdom's work.
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 1:38:16 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Mt 23:23 -
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy, and faith. These things should have been done without neglecting the others.
Lu 11:42 -
"But woe to you Pharisees! You give a tenth of mint, rue, and every kind of herb, and you bypass justice and love for God. These things you should have done without neglecting the others.
1 Cor. 9:10a
Or isn't He really saying it for us? Yes, this is written for us,
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness,
This is mighty convenient when manipulatively used to your advantage. Jesus was addressing a people who were still under the Law, therefore bound to obedience to all its commands, tithing being one of them. Since Jesus was upholding ALL the Law, do you wear garments woven with mofe than one type of fiber? Do you offer up sacrifices?
Sorry, but the obvious element of convenience is much too obvious in all this.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 1:41:23 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Oh the temple Solomon built! It was something else! Would cost millions to build today! GOD told them to build it! It was pleasing to God for them to build the extravagant building.
Today God still speaks to his people. He at times lays on their hearts to build for him buildings that are to be dedicated to Him and to help further his kingdom's work.
This is so astounding. It's almost unbelievable that you would think that this is a legitimate defense. The temple was the actual dwelling place of the Lord. These so-called "church buildings" are nothing of the kind. WE are the temple of the Holy Spirit, not some dead buildings errected by the hands of men. Who are you trying to fool?
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 1:45:51 PM
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heavenskeys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: silvrstridr
If you are so "enlightened with higher understanding", then I guess you see that the only difference between you a normal Christian is that you tithe directly to the community, instead of using the Church as a means of distribution of funds.
I realize you didn't address this to me, but I felt compelled to ask: What support do you have that giving to organized religion is synonymous with giving to God?
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 1:51:58 PM
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heavenskeys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tfkeel
Why does a pastor need a salary? I think the pastor should be the pastor because God calls him to be the pastor, like He calls us to be witnesses, deacons, servers, teachers, etc. and gives the pastor the responsibility to oversee these activities, and teach us to do them. We don't get paid to do the work of the church, why should he?
Better be careful. The religionists won't like this one bit.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 1:54:55 PM
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heavenskeys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mom4christ2
just wondering? When people use the excuse to not tithe because it is in the Old Testament does that mean that we do not have to obey the 10 Commandments because they are in the O.T. ?
If this were the most common denominator, then you would have a point. However, this is a radical, therefore not applicable.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 1:58:25 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2441
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
Wow. I actually read my way through this entire thread and now my head hurts.
Bottom line: If you want to donate money to your church, donate money to your church.
If you want to donate your money to other ministries, donate your money to them.
If you want to donate your money to your local Rescue Mission, donate it.
If you want to donate your money to help the poor, the widows, orphans, donate it.
If you want to donate your money to a no-kill animal shelter, donate it.
If you want to donate 10% of your gross, your net, your tax refund, donate it.
If you want to donate more or less, then donate it.
If you need guidance on donating money, seek God in prayer and through scripture.
Understand that ALL money belongs to God, and He may ask you someday to account for it.
Donating money does not get anyone into heaven.
Not donating money does not keep anyone out of heaven.
There. Does that cover it? (happy sigh)
Shame on your Harvie! You missed several key points. Now hand me over those rubber duckies and you go back to page one and start all over again! 
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 2:07:40 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter
Well, true but if you notice I rely heavily on OT scripture for my discernment, SO did the Apostles and still they did not pull out Mal 3 or tithing out as a tool for teaching about giving in the New Testament Church.
With this, you will be met with such things as, "Well, they were taught those things whether recorded in the NT or not. I mean, that's pretty much a no-brainer. It only makes sense that Paul taught what we are taught in our church. There simply can't be any disparity between the two."
What these poeple seem to miss is that the average citizen in places like Derbe were uneducated, dirt-poor slaves, who didn't have access to the OT scriptures, therefore knowing its content. The Corinthians had a problem supporting a full-fledged apostle, so how much more problem would they have had supporting some institutional dead-beat who thinks he can find support for his man-made lifestyle, as it exists today, in alsmost every other verse of the NT?
quote:
This is not an OT over NT or NT over OT topic, the OT is very good for discernment if use correctly.
Very true.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 2:10:46 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3292
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From: OKLAHOMA
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That's okay Harvey, you're among friends.
They're the ones with short snippet posts.
LOL
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 2:13:36 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: carlkeigley
Question?
How does one give a scriptural stance when the other
person disregards any scriptures given and holds to his/her own interpretations?
Answer:
Just because someone posts a verse in support doesn't mean that their position is defensible in relation to what ALL scripture has to say on a particular subject, of that their use of that verse is consistent with the context. That's why we try to have intelligent discussion of the applied verses when possible.
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My favorite version of the Bible is the KJV.
It can be twisted to say anything we want to if we choose to.
Not really, but if you want to believe that, you can do so. I would say that the more modern versions are much easier to manipulate because of the lower form of terminology they utilize within a language that is experiencing shifts and changes every decade.
HK
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/25/2005 3:50:16 PM
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heavenskeys
Posts: 167
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rufas2000
Maybe not on purpose but this is an unusual circumstance as you quoted someone but we have no way of knowing what the original poster meant. In the quote above any interested party can look back to post 14 to see what you meant. Nobody can do that with your quote because the post was deleted.
It wasn't deleted by me. So, who's to blame besides myself?
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If we don't support the church then who will we team up with? We can't do it ourselves and by and large I still have faith that the Church is the most effective unit in the Army vs human misery and that we should give it our time and money.
You seem to be confusing organized religion and the Church itself. They are not one and the same. There are many within organized religion (churches) who are not saved. Every member of the Church is saved. This is one of the main qualifiers, which alone draws a distinctive line of differentiation between organized religion (churches) and the Church.
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You can't do many of the good works churches do without access to buildings. You could rent them but what if the landlord throws you out or you can't get an "exclusive" on the building? In many cases it is financially and ministerally (word?) prudent to own the property you use.
You keep trying to force this to remain on the level of the temporal organization. The God portrayed within the pages of the Bible is able to equip just one man to do what 10 million religionists with buildings and real estate could not collectively accomplish in 10 million years. That same God is not limited to only being able to use what mankind errects with his mere hands. The One who created all that is certainly has the ability to go far beyond mere numbers and quantities of warm bodies and brick, wood and mortar edifices.
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Not all money that does not directly go to the needy is wasted. I understand your concerns. I'm sure many churches have luxuries as status symbols where they should be putting the money to good use but that doesn't mean that some niceties or ownership isn't money well spent.
This was never about not having niceties. My main contention has been against organized religion using the primary portion of believer's giving for such things. That's the difference between where I'm coming from and where you thought I was coming from. 
HK
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