RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 9:11:21 PM)

Euty,

Do you see what I see in this passage?

1 Corinthians 9

7 Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its fruit? Or who shepherds a flock and does not drink the milk from the flock? 8 Am I saying this from a human perspective? Doesn't the law also say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Do not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain. Is God really concerned with oxen? 10 Or isn't He really saying it for us? Yes, this is written for us, because he who plows ought to plow in hope, and he who threshes should do so in hope of sharing the crop. 11 If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12 If others share this authority over you, don't we even more? However, we have not used this authority; instead we endure everything so that we will not hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Do you not know that those who perform the temple services eat the food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the offerings of the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should earn their living by the gospel.

15 But I have used none of these rights, and I have not written this to make it happen that way for me.

*********

Is Paul using OT law to show us a principle to abide by? Notice that he said it was "his right" to be supported by those in the church. Is he using the OT law to "prove" his case?



Eutychus -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 9:55:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bobservations

notmycity, You have perfectly said the truth. Pastors who thump tithing are putting guilt trips on those who have not studied the Word. I believe it is a form of extortion or extraction. They are forcing the poor to give behond their means and not teaching the wealthy to give according to their means. Peace, boB

Bob, a tithe is not a forcing. If it is, you might as well keep it. But 10% for everyone is the most equitable system I can imagine. It is, in fact, according to every person's means.

[Interestingly and as I understand it, Muslims are expected to give 20%.]

But all that aside, when I was making near poverty wages and began to tithe, what it taught me, among other things, was that I could absolutely trust God to continue meeting my needs when I gave back to Him a portion in gratitude and worship. And when I increased my giving, He continued to bless me. It wasn't about getting more money, it proved that the Supplier isn't limited by my earning power to help His Kingdom financially - He has always replaced whatever He has led me to offer back to Him.

Is that something you'd consider a bad thing to teach poor or rich believers?



Eutychus -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 9:56:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

Euty,

Do you see what I see in this passage?

1 Corinthians 9

7 Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its fruit? Or who shepherds a flock and does not drink the milk from the flock? 8 Am I saying this from a human perspective? Doesn't the law also say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Do not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain. Is God really concerned with oxen? 10 Or isn't He really saying it for us? Yes, this is written for us, because he who plows ought to plow in hope, and he who threshes should do so in hope of sharing the crop. 11 If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12 If others share this authority over you, don't we even more? However, we have not used this authority; instead we endure everything so that we will not hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Do you not know that those who perform the temple services eat the food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the offerings of the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should earn their living by the gospel.

15 But I have used none of these rights, and I have not written this to make it happen that way for me.

*********

Is Paul using OT law to show us a principle to abide by? Notice that he said it was "his right" to be supported by those in the church. Is he using the OT law to "prove" his case?

An excellent, excellent observation and really worth some prayerful consideration.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 10:02:40 PM)

Try Also Matthew 10:10.

Matt 10:10

[The workman is worthy of his meat.] Tees trophees autou, of his maintenance. It is a maintenance, and that only, which a minister of God is to expect, and that he has a divine right to; but not to make a fortune, or lay up wealth: besides, it is the workman, he that labours in the word and doctrine, that is to get even this. How contrary to Christ is it for a man to have vast revenues, as a minister of the Gospel, who ministers no Gospel, and who spends the revenues of the church to its disgrace and ruin!
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1996, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Also:
Gal 6:6-10

6 And let the one who is taught the word share all good things with him who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we shall reap if we do not grow weary. 10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
NASB

Also:
Luke 10:6-8
upon him; but if not, it will return to you. 7 "And stay in that house, eating and drinking what they give you; for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not keep moving from house to house. 8 "And whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat what is set before you;
NASB

And again:
1 Tim 5:17-19

17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."
NASB

I particularly like the "be content with what is set before you" idea and the use of the term share. As further witnessed by supporting scriptures

Act 2:45 and 4:34-37

There is nothing in these verses that point to tithing as a system for funding church operation or as wages for the Apostles and teachers. It does however fit nicely with Spirit lead giving from the heart in a sharing manner so that NONE will lack.

And again I reiterate that I have never said that funding church operations is wrong.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 11:22:15 PM)

In the Bible what methods are shown and offered as an example of taking up collections for building a church/temple/tabernacle?

The scripture for the Tabernacle (Tent used while in the wilderness) is found in Exodus 25, 35 and 36.

Moses told the people of the need, they brought freewill offerings as each ones heart lead them to give. They brought until Moses had to tell them to stop. The workmen then constructed the Tabernacle.

The building of the Temple is in 1st Kings 5. Where Solomon purchased the cedars and sent laborers and paid wages.... Way to much to paste here.


What examples are listed in the OT for funding daily operation of the Temple/Tabernacle?

Look at:
Ex 30:11-16

11 The LORD also spoke to Moses, saying, 12 "When you take a census of the sons of Israel to number them, then each one of them shall give a ransom for himself to the LORD, when you number them, that there may be no plague among them when you number them. 13 This is what everyone who is numbered shall give: half a shekel according to the shekel of the sanctuary (the shekel is twenty gerahs), half a shekel as a contribution to the LORD. 14 Everyone who is numbered, from twenty years old and over, shall give the contribution to the LORD. 15 The rich shall not pay more, and the poor shall not pay less than the half shekel, when you give the contribution to the LORD to make atonement for yourselves. 16 And you shall take the atonement money from the sons of Israel, and shall give it for the service of the tent of meeting, that it may be a memorial for the sons of Israel before the LORD, to make atonement for yourselves."
NASB

Neh 10:32-33
We also placed ourselves under obligation to contribute yearly one third of a shekel for the service of the house of our God: 33 for the showbread, for the continual grain offering, for the continual burnt offering, the sabbaths, the new moon, for the appointed times, for the holy things and for the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and all the work of the house of our God.
NASB

So the maintenance and service (daily operation) was much less than a tithe.


Continuing with these verses:
Neh 10:37-39
We will also bring the first of our dough, our contributions, the fruit of every tree, the new wine and the oil to the priests at the chambers of the house of our God, and the tithe of our ground to the Levites, for the Levites are they who receive the tithes in all the rural towns. 38 And the priest, the son of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes, and the Levites shall bring up the tenth of the tithes to the house of our God, to the chambers of the storehouse. 39 For the sons of Israel and the sons of Levi shall bring the contribution of the grain, the new wine and the oil, to the chambers; there are the utensils of the sanctuary, the priests who are ministering, the gatekeepers, and the singers. Thus we will not neglect the house of our God.
NASB

Note that only 1% came to the Temple. It clearly shows that the Levites received the tithes. The people did not bring them to the Temple. The Levites received tithes in the "rural towns" and then brought a tenth of them to the Temple. A tenth of 10% = 1%.

First fruits and the 1% came to the Priests. First Fruits are not a tithe. They are the first of something. If you had a cow you'd bring the first born male calf, no matter how many calves the cow had in its lifetime, if it had no male calves then you brought nothing.
Likewise, the first fruit of a tree no matter how many were grown. If you had apple trees, your brought the first ripe apple from each tree, Whether the tree produced one apple or 500 apples.

If you look at tithing you'll see that the system made the Levites roughly equal to the other tribes for yearly sustanance.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/17/2005 11:33:31 PM)

SHEKEL

(shek'-'-l), (shek'-el), (she'-kel), (she'-kul) (sheqel): A weight and a coin. The Hebrew shekel was the 50 th part of a mina, and as a weight about 224 grains, and as money (silver) was worth about 2 shillings 9 d., or 66 cents (in 1915). No gold shekel has been found, and hence, it is inferred that such a coin was not used; but as a certain amount of gold, by weight, it is mentioned in 2 Chron 3:9 and is probably intended to be supplied in 2 Kings 5:5. The gold shekel was 1/60 of the heavy Babylonian mina and weighed about 252 grains. In value it was about equal to 2 British pounds and 1 shilling, or about $10,00 (in 1915). See MONEY ; WEIGHTS AND MEASURES . In the Revised Version (British and American) of Matt 17:27 "shekel" replaces "piece of money" of the King James Version, the translation of stater. See STATER .
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright © 1996, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)



Eutychus -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 7:17:33 AM)

quote:

Note that only 1% came to the Temple. It clearly shows that the Levites received the tithes. The people did not bring them to the Temple. The Levites received tithes in the "rural towns" and then brought a tenth of them to the Temple. A tenth of 10% = 1%.

Do you advocate paying the pastor 1% of the money given to the church? That would place the vast majority of pastors on food stamps and welfare. But that's keeping in line with the thinking I encountered in my youth, "keep the pastor poor and humble even though I'd sling hamburgers before I'd work for the salary we pay him."



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 8:25:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jerseyguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: heavenskeys

What's even more sad are those who blindly "tithe" to their institutional "church" organization, most of which routinely abuse the primary portion of their giving in support of a dead structure rather than the meeting of needs


You said this a few times, do you have data to back it up?


Well, I doubt that Barna or Christianity Today did such a study in order to come up with data, because the proof of what I said is quite evident for all to see. I think we can all pretty much rest assured that even though benevolent outreaches are fairly common among many institutions, the fact that they applied even one red cent of the primary portion of their follower's giving toward the building, or any other institutional expednitures, is evidenced not only that they have a building, but also what they teach. Very few, if any, teach anything BUT the idea that giving to that institution is synonymous with giving to God. This appears to be the main supporting cornerstone of their defense of a practice that is known to have originated with the RCC.

Now, if you have an answer to the original question I put forth, then I'm all ears. Merely asking for data, which is pretty much self-evident in more ways than one, doesn't serve as an effective counter of what can be observed by anyone with just a smattering of discernment.

I know of one organization that separates the believer's primary portion for meeting needs from the support for the expenditures. As a matter of fact, the leaders of that organization told me that what is given for meeting needs is always more than what is given for the expenditures, and yet they've never had a problem paying the bills and the salaries, and they are a light in that community like no other organization I have ever observed. It appears that because they had leadership that believed in God's set of priorities rather than the many variations of man-made priorities that most institutiuons follow, God has blessed them far beyond the other institutions around them; which are green with envy, but unwilling to follow suit.

HK



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 8:32:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

more opinion based on very very very limited knowledge.


Only when you conveniently close your eyes and ears to the obvious.

I never said that ALL institutions do this. I clearly said MOST. If some take it personally and want data in the place of common sense obsrevation that anyone can perform, then perhaps they are experiencing a twinge of guilt rather than rational insight to a concept they had obviously never before given thought. Can't you answer the original question without trying to confuse the issue with impossible demands? Jumping onto a passing, nonsensical bandwagon won't lend strength to your position.

HK



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 8:40:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShouldKnowBetter

Now why wouldn't we use these same methods for funding the same things today?


I haven't read the responses to this as of yet, but I will say that following the OT commands and examples affords less money for the extravagance to which most institutionalized religion is prone, no matter how old their building may be. Bigger and better seems to be the trend here in my area, and most all others where I have traveled. It's almost impossible to drive through any given city without seeing a new religious structure going up somewhere...not necessarily because there are more believers in that community, but, sadly, because the interest rates have been much lower than in many years past.

HK



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 8:44:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

Euty,

Do you see what I see in this passage?

1 Corinthians 9

7 Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its fruit? Or who shepherds a flock and does not drink the milk from the flock? 8 Am I saying this from a human perspective? Doesn't the law also say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Do not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain. Is God really concerned with oxen? 10 Or isn't He really saying it for us? Yes, this is written for us, because he who plows ought to plow in hope, and he who threshes should do so in hope of sharing the crop. 11 If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12 If others share this authority over you, don't we even more? However, we have not used this authority; instead we endure everything so that we will not hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Do you not know that those who perform the temple services eat the food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the offerings of the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should earn their living by the gospel.

15 But I have used none of these rights, and I have not written this to make it happen that way for me.

*********

Is Paul using OT law to show us a principle to abide by? Notice that he said it was "his right" to be supported by those in the church. Is he using the OT law to "prove" his case?


I don't recall anyone saying that those who minister are not worthy of reaping some benefit from their work for the Lord. It appears that you're making an issue out of a non-issue.

HK



heavenskeys -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 8:59:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

quote:

Note that only 1% came to the Temple. It clearly shows that the Levites received the tithes. The people did not bring them to the Temple. The Levites received tithes in the "rural towns" and then brought a tenth of them to the Temple. A tenth of 10% = 1%.

Do you advocate paying the pastor 1% of the money given to the church? That would place the vast majority of pastors on food stamps and welfare. But that's keeping in line with the thinking I encountered in my youth, "keep the pastor poor and humble even though I'd sling hamburgers before I'd work for the salary we pay him."


The present-day, practical application of the verses used in support of the minister drinking the "milk" from those they oversee appears to have some serious flaws.

Are you, like most, assuming that an institutional leader automatically qualifies as a biblical leader? If so, then how did you arrive at this conclusion? What are the merits of such a belief?

Besides that, drinking the milk doesn't mean that the minister is then authorized to additionally take the hide and some of the muscle and teeth. Where do the NT scriptures lend any measure of credibility to the idea of the local elders ceasing to be productive citizens in their respective communities, therefore the responsibility for the entirety of their living being layed upon the people to whom they minister? The "milk" was specifically put forth by Paul as illustration. Well, guess what? Those who drink of that "milk" also eat meat, fruits and vegetables from other sources, which speaks of a far greater measure of self-sufficiency rather than feeding only upon just the milk.

Got milk?

Man does not live by milk alone. [:D]

HK



silvrstridr -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 9:30:20 AM)

heavens, can I ask why you so persistently argue this thread? Can you establish your religious background and religious beliefs on tithing before constantly debating any further please? Only reason I ask this, is because when I see you making 5 posts to everyone elses 1, it starts to seem fanatical, or as if you have some sort of personal vendetta against tithing in church.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 10:54:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

quote:

Note that only 1% came to the Temple. It clearly shows that the Levites received the tithes. The people did not bring them to the Temple. The Levites received tithes in the "rural towns" and then brought a tenth of them to the Temple. A tenth of 10% = 1%.

Do you advocate paying the pastor 1% of the money given to the church? That would place the vast majority of pastors on food stamps and welfare. But that's keeping in line with the thinking I encountered in my youth, "keep the pastor poor and humble even though I'd sling hamburgers before I'd work for the salary we pay him."


No.
I advocate using the methods of funding church operation as laid out in the Bible.

The method is:

Make the need known to the givers.

Let the givers fullfill the need as each one is prospered to give by God.

So let me borrow from P31W and ask...

Show me the data to back up you opinion on the statistics about the 1% giving to the pastor and income levels? We want data not opinions...[8D]

This is an individual church congregation thing. Each one needs to manage their resources as the needs dictate. Wise stewardship decisions based on a thorough understanding of Godly stewardship principles.

For Gods people, the giving was a lifestyle not a religious practice. A trip through the OT and the law will clearly show this to anyone with an open mind on the subject. The laws covered how to handle daily business dealings. From calibrating your scales to not telling lies or oppressing the poor. All these principles shown in the law are still very valid today. They have nothing to do with "church" and everything to do with lifestyle.

The other major component we've not covered yet is the effect of the Theocracy system of OT times.

There are many things we don't have today starting with a Theocracy made up of Levites....

While I'm not as geared up as HK on the issue, I see much perversion in the institution we call the church today. All you have to do is watch CNN or the Insperation Channel to see it. There are many a "pastor' fleecing the flock, living in luxury while deceiving many and leading them down the broad path. Anf their favorite topic, tithe for financial freedom or a form therof. Prosperity preaching, name it claim it.... THis is not aimed at anyone here or the pastor of the previously linked sermon so don't anyone start accuse me on that.

But you know it's true, that there are many who pervert the Word to thier own gain. I'm sure this probably happens in other religions as well and is not confined to Christianity.



Eutychus -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 12:26:58 PM)

quote:

Are you, like most, assuming that an institutional leader automatically qualifies as a biblical leader? If so, then how did you arrive at this conclusion? What are the merits of such a belief?

I can't figure out why thee protests so much. I mean, if you'd just leave us ignert tithing schmucks alone, you can continue to get your free ride.
[:D]



Ps103 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 12:32:05 PM)

GAHHHH!!!

Flashback! Flashback!

My eyes...my eyes....


Ahem.

Sorry, you may now go back to the never-ending tithe debate.



christiancapitalist -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 1:49:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

quote:

Are you, like most, assuming that an institutional leader automatically qualifies as a biblical leader? If so, then how did you arrive at this conclusion? What are the merits of such a belief?

I can't figure out why thee protests so much. I mean, if you'd just leave us ignert tithing schmucks alone, you can continue to get your free ride.
[:D]

preach it brother! i couldn't agree more. it must be nice to go to church for free, not conributing to the costs involved. but, hey, that is what freeloaders do.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 2:10:38 PM)

It's not just the Church building that our tithes and offerings go to support or the Lord's ministers. It's hospitals, orphanages, millions of bibles being handed out in all differant languages, prison ministries, homes for abused women and children, missionary work, reconstruction of communities ravaged by war, food for the hungry, cloths or the naked, and medical attention for the sick, shelter for the homeless,......the list is simply to long to mention. Things that cannot be "seen" by an "outsider" or by the naked eye driving past a church or cutting on a tv set. Folks who are "involved" know about these things and that is where their "heart" is. That's why their treasure is there also. Churches feed millions of people per year IN the church building, bring countless lost souls to Christ IN the Church building, equipt saints and minister to those who are suffering IN the Church Building.

How sad to encourage brothers and sisters in Christ to give less than the min. God demanded from the people who worshipped Him in Scripture. If the Jews living under the law were "happy" to give their 33-34% in tithes and then gave offerings and sacrifices on top of that how much more happy should we today in America be happy to give much more under grace. How sad to be a "naysayer" about the Bride of Christ and the organized work of the church. How sad and ignorant.

Euty your post made me laugh too! Thanks for looking at the passage and post I put up. For some reason that just "hit me" for the first time. I know I have studied the passage many times in the past but this time the HS took me even deeper! How neat.

Ps103 - Fritz the Adm. knew how much you enjoy these debates and he dedicated this thread to you! So you must read EVERY post![:D]



Psalm22 -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 2:43:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103

GAHHHH!!!

Flashback! Flashback!

My eyes...my eyes....


Ahem.

Sorry, you may now go back to the never-ending tithe debate.


Captures my reaction, too, although I have found it profitable, as well, to read especially the 1 Cor 9 passage P31 posted.



ShadeIsHe -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 2:59:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: christiancapitalist

preach it brother! i couldn't agree more. it must be nice to go to church for free, not conributing to the costs involved. but, hey, that is what freeloaders do.


Yikes. This is one of the main reasons I sometimes stay away from attending a church....due to feeling like I'm being judged by people who don't even know me, my heart, or my financial circumstances. At the last church I attended regularly there were two choices: Give money to the church to help pay the principal and interest on their garish new $6 million building, or use the money for my family's expenses, which include a large amount of medical debt, in order to stave off the possibility of losing our small home, keep the debts from going to collections, make sure we had food to eat, etc. The choice was easy....our family.



Lapidoth -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 3:32:32 PM)

I only read the last page of this debate.
Glad to find one of Euty's hangouts. haha.

Why does this issue get so much attention?
Because it hits us all in the same place, the pocket book.

There are many smoke screens, but it's the pocket book.
The givers give to God from their thankfulness and perspective of obedience.
The non-givers come up with whatever excuse seems handy and even blame
God for their excuses.

For one, I just don't get it.
And like many, feel ostricized when I leave. lol.



silvrstridr -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 4:29:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShadeIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: christiancapitalist

preach it brother! i couldn't agree more. it must be nice to go to church for free, not conributing to the costs involved. but, hey, that is what freeloaders do.


Yikes. This is one of the main reasons I sometimes stay away from attending a church....due to feeling like I'm being judged by people who don't even know me, my heart, or my financial circumstances. At the last church I attended regularly there were two choices: Give money to the church to help pay the principal and interest on their garish new $6 million building, or use the money for my family's expenses, which include a large amount of medical debt, in order to stave off the possibility of losing our small home, keep the debts from going to collections, make sure we had food to eat, etc. The choice was easy....our family.


I think both of your views are a little off target. Church should not require contribution to the costs, but ShadeIsHe, you are a little off as well, tithing is not the ONLY reason to go to Church.

People who go to church and don't pay tithes are not freeloaders. People who don't go to church because they think there is too much pressure placed on tithes are insecure with their own beliefs about it.

In my opinion, based on the bible, your thoughts of sacrificing tithe to pay off your debt is not biblical. Tithe doesn't have to be to that 6 million dollar church, it could be as simple as taking 10% and walking around the ghetto giving homeless people food and telling them Jesus loves them and wants them to have a better life.



silvrstridr -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 4:30:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkeigley

I only read the last page of this debate.
Glad to find one of Euty's hangouts. haha.

Why does this issue get so much attention?
Because it hits us all in the same place, the pocket book.

There are many smoke screens, but it's the pocket book.
The givers give to God from their thankfulness and perspective of obedience.
The non-givers come up with whatever excuse seems handy and even blame
God for their excuses.

For one, I just don't get it.
And like many, feel ostricized when I leave. lol.


agreed.



shouldknowbetter -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 4:37:36 PM)

P31W quoted:
It's hospitals, orphanages, millions of bibles being handed out in all differant languages, prison ministries, homes for abused women and children, missionary work, reconstruction of communities ravaged by war, food for the hungry, cloths or the naked, and medical attention for the sick, shelter for the homeless,......the list is simply to long to mention. Things that cannot be "seen" by an "outsider" or by the naked eye driving past a church or cutting on a tv set.

Some many assumptions about the other party and no knowledge or attempt at understanding. I used to tithe and talk like you. Since I have quit doing it (as you would define it) and came to a higher understanding the blessings have poured down.

My giving also goes for all these things and more and by the way my total is way more than ten percent. True, I don't tithe "to my local fellowship" if that was even possible to do today.

See I'm not one to pigeonhole other people gifts and disqualify them because they don't meet my qualifications.

And by the way, calling or inferring someone is an "outsider"..OUCH.. Think about the ramifications of that wicked tongue or fingers... [:(]

HK is going down a little different path than I am on the subject. I agree that the tithe as used in the OT is not used the same way today (sort of). But it's for a very different set of reasons that hinge on Theocracy. Whether money collected today is used rightly or wrongly has no bearing on the validity of tithes being a requirement for Christians or the validity of tithe principle definitions. When someone says 10% is a minimum then it becomes a requirement. I choose not to lay that yoke on my brothers and sisters understanding that God equips each of us differently.

I believe that we all are under a form of tithe today but just don't understand the truth about it. My definition is 180 degrees from many who preach and teach tithing, who's definition of tithing is something different than God reveals in His Word. IMHO

It's clear and I think all agree that tithes went for much more than daily expense for church operations in the OT. Tithes in the OT went for specific purposes that we do not have today on the church level. Tithes were never confined to "the church" in the OT. They were collected at the national level and were a requirement. Just as attending feasts, circumcision, diet, etc... were requirements.



P31W -> RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 5:02:23 PM)

quote:

And by the way, calling or inferring someone is an "outsider"..OUCH.. Think about the ramifications of that wicked tongue or fingers...


By outsider I mean someone who judges the organized acitives of the organized church from the "outside" rather than being an active participant. Someone who uses "evidence" to prove their case by saying they watch CNN (funny that's a new's station where I live) or they call "evidence" what they see a Chuch building looks like instead of knowing any Facts from first hand experience. Gossip and slander is what I call that type of talk.

BTW, I notice that you left off the copy of paste of my reply the FRIST sentence that put the rest of my paragraph in context. It was discussing that when we tithe the money goes to more than just keeping up buildings or paying the Lord's ministers.....notice you cut that out and then said you gave to everything that you left in the cut and paste......but not what you left out.

Here is my first sentence that you chose to leave out.

It's not just the Church building that our tithes and offerings go to support or the Lord's ministers.



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