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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 10:46:18 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
Why does giving to another country define the restrictions of freewill giving today?...
You have an immediate family. Providing for it is your first priority and greatest responsibility. You have an extended family that you should be willing to help when your first priority is met. They are not the same and do not have the same priority or level of responsibility.
The local church has local ministry needs which is it's first priority and greatest responsibility. The local church should also have concern for other, outside ministries. They are not the same. The NT instructions for freewill, Spirit-led giving only dealy with giving to the second group. As with Jesus' teachings, while local giving principles had been established, Paul informed us they we should commit to helping outside ministries too.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 10:55:01 AM
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P31W
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quote:
God gave us his Spirit to teach, train, convict, and guide us.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 10:59:01 AM
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jbbaab44
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The beauty of freewill giving is you can even be called to give when you don't have the money to provide for you local family either. If the Spirit is calling you to give your dying dollar, then God will provide for your needs because of your faith. If the Spirit is calling you to a foreign mission you go, right? Isn't this called faith? Didn't the widow give her last coins? Didn't the Galatians give out of their lack? Didn't the widow offer Elijah a cake from the last of her flour and oil?
The OT tithing law did not ask the poor to give, but the Holy Spirit can convict the poor to give. This is why it is greater than the law. The Spirit releases everyone from the meticulous path of giving to your local church from the tenth of your increase. The Holy Spirit released the Jewish apostles to go and teach ALL nations. The holy Spirit releases you to give to your sister who just lost her job instead of giving it to your church. The Holy Spirit releases you to give freely, but gives greater guilt than the law ever could.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:01:42 AM
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P31W
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Anyone who does not provide for their own family is worse than a non-believer.
I have watched people who could not and did not provide for their own family give money to a church. They according to scripture were NOT listening to the Holy Spirit. Had they "tested" the spirit they were hearing against the word they would know it was not a HOLY spirit they were hearing.
You appear to be falling for the "name it and claim it" type of giving. I see that happen often to people who listen to those types of preachers.
quote:
The OT tithing law did not ask the poor to give
It had nothing to do with being poor or rich. It had to do with God blessing you with something and you giving a portion of it back to Him.
If God blessed a poor person with a small crop they tithed from it.
quote:
The holy Spirit releases you to give to your sister who just lost her job instead of giving it to your church.
If this is true then the OT law is GREATER than the spirit and God has lowered his "perfect standars". In the OT one had to both care for their sister who was in need AND tithe. Is that what you are saying? On the Cross God's standards were lowered and not raised? Do you have scripture to support this belief of yours?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:09:45 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
The beauty of freewill giving is you can even be called to give when you don't have the money to provide for you local family either. If the Spirit is calling you to give your dying dollar, then God will provide for your needs because of your faith. If the Spirit is calling you to a foreign mission you go, right? Isn't this called faith? Didn't the widow give her last coins? Didn't the Galatians give out of their lack? Didn't the widow offer Elijah a cake from the last of her flour and oil?
The OT tithing law did not ask the poor to give, but the Holy Spirit can convict the poor to give. This is why it is greater than the law. The Spirit releases everyone from the meticulous path of giving to your local church from the tenth of your increase. The Holy Spirit released the Jewish apostles to go and teach ALL nations. The holy Spirit releases you to give to your sister who just lost her job instead of giving it to your church. The Holy Spirit releases you to give freely, but gives greater guilt than the law ever could.
You make it sound like if I have given 10% of my income to ministry that I am somehow immune to the leading of the Holy Spirit to give a penny more to other needs. I'm not sure if you missed it but, in case you did, 10% was just a baseline of my giving decades ago. That practice opened my heart to giving as a way of life - outside ministries and, even, community charities.
A committed tither is not locked into giving a mere begrudging tenth to meet some sense of obligation to OT examples. A tither is one that gives in gratitude for the material grace of God that He provides in order for us to bless others in His name. What He gives, He gives so that we might be channels of blessings to others for the glory of Christ Jesus.
Christian giving should ALWAYS exceed OT giving in amount and in attitude.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:11:51 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
If this is true then the OT law is GREATER than the spirit and God has lowered his "perfect standars". In the OT one had to both care for their sister who was in need AND tithe. Is that what you are saying? On the Cross God's standards were lowered and not raised? Do you have scripture to support this belief of yours?
Please show me the verse that says God raised his standards. God always required 100% stewardship. He always was against hatred. The new testament did not reveal anything new about God's character that we shouldn't have already known.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:13:59 AM
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P31W
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You have contridicted yourself once again.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:14:10 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
The beauty of freewill giving is you can even be called to give when you don't have the money to provide for you local family either. If the Spirit is calling you to give your dying dollar, then God will provide for your needs because of your faith. If the Spirit is calling you to a foreign mission you go, right? Isn't this called faith? Didn't the widow give her last coins? Didn't the Galatians give out of their lack? Didn't the widow offer Elijah a cake from the last of her flour and oil?
The OT tithing law did not ask the poor to give, but the Holy Spirit can convict the poor to give. This is why it is greater than the law. The Spirit releases everyone from the meticulous path of giving to your local church from the tenth of your increase. The Holy Spirit released the Jewish apostles to go and teach ALL nations. The holy Spirit releases you to give to your sister who just lost her job instead of giving it to your church. The Holy Spirit releases you to give freely, but gives greater guilt than the law ever could.
You make it sound like if I have given 10% of my income to ministry that I am somehow immune to the leading of the Holy Spirit to give a penny more to other needs. I'm not sure if you missed it but, in case you did, 10% was just a baseline of my giving decades ago. That practice opened my heart to giving as a way of life - outside ministries and, even, community charities.
A committed tither is not locked into giving a mere begrudging tenth to meet some sense of obligation to OT examples. A tither is one that gives in gratitude for the material grace of God that He provides in order for us to bless others in His name. What He gives, He gives so that we might be channels of blessings to others for the glory of Christ Jesus.
Christian giving should ALWAYS exceed OT giving in amount and in attitude.
I am sorry you miss my point. I am not against giving 10%, nor am i against personal standards. I am against saying 10% is a minimum, or a standard, or a requirement for other saints besides yourself. If you've reached the 10% mark out of the leading of the Spirit, then by all means my argument isn't with you.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:15:28 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
You have contridicted yourself once again.
please enlighten me!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:20:07 AM
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P31W
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The tithe is the biblical min. standard of giving back to God according to scripture. It was God himself who set this standard. He never revolked it under the new covenant and He knew we would be discussing it today.
When I teach I teach the Bible God's Holy Word. I do not teach people to follow a spirit they hear until they have compared it to God's word....all of it not selected passages. Then and only then can they know for sure they are hearing from God and not satan.
Even a child is known by their actions.
The "average" American Christian living in the most affulent country in the world gives less than a "fraction" back to God than the poor nation of Isreal gave living under the law and without the indewelling of the Holy Spirit to transform them. Before Christ died on the Cross for their sins.
Those poor people gave more than we do today as an average. Why is that? Maybe they are listening to spirits and not checking to see where that spirit is coming from?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:22:29 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
The tithe is the biblical min. standard of giving back to God according to scripture. It was God himself who set this standard. He never revoked it under the new covenant and He knew we would be discussing it today.
presumptuous arguments are not biblical.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:23:57 AM
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jbbaab44
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i didn't know God asks us to start our stewardship at a certain amount? Kind of like saying i'll start out my sacrificial life by giving 10%.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:25:10 AM
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P31W
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Believe it or not it's TRUE.
The tithe is Biblical and it was set by God Himself not man.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:30:29 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
i didn't know God asks us to start our stewardship at a certain amount? Kind of like saying i'll start out my sacrificial life by giving 10%.
Interestingly, perhaps the first thing I realized when I started worshipping God with a tithe was the realization that 10% isn't His, but that 100% of it is His, I'm only a steward of His money. If that means giving everything in my pocket to minister financially to another, then He has the full right to tell me to do so.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:34:41 AM
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P31W
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quote:
i didn't know God asks us to start our stewardship at a certain amount? Kind of like saying i'll start out my sacrificial life by giving 10%.
God did not ask us to "start our STEWARDSHIP" at a certain amount. We are stewards of all that He has blessed us with. Because we are "HIS STEWARDS-----a steward is one who manages the property/assets of another_______ we are to obey His instructions on Giving. We begin by obeying the baby basics set forth in scripture. (the most odvious I might add)
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:36:37 AM
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P31W
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quote:
I started worshipping God with a tithe
I am soooo glad to read this. Often times people view tithing or giving to God as "paying my tithes" or "paying God". It always makes me wonder what they think they are doing and why.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:39:13 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
I started worshipping God with a tithe
I am soooo glad to read this. Often times people view tithing or giving to God as "paying my tithes" or "paying God". It always makes me wonder what they think they are doing and why.
I've met a few who think they are giving to get, where tithing is simply a worship of gratitude for what God has already given us. We cannot obligate God to give us anything.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:43:21 AM
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P31W
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Do you think it has something to do with the way you and I view God Himself? How we see him?
I know before I was "tested" (tithed when we were broke and bad financial shape) it did not have for me the meaning that it does today. I could not understand the power of God until I experienced it and lived it in my life. I KNEW that we could not do anything to help ourselves in our situation. I knew when God stepped in and preformed miracles. I know it was God showing Himself to us. Looking back I realized that it was during those hard times and God forcing us to remain in a state of limbo that He was teaching us about Himself. He was preparing us for a new type of work.
God told us that the purpose of the tithe was so that we could "learn to revere the Lord your God always". I guess that is what I learned by continuing to trust God with the tithe and allowing him to work out the other details. I know my faith is much stronger today than it would have been had I used that money that belonged to God for our medical bills, etc. because I would have been trusting in my ability to do things and not forced to trust in God's ability.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:47:49 AM
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jbbaab44
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There are numerous testimonies from my blog of people who have tested God through Spirit-led giving and have been blessed, and spiritually challenged. It doesn't matter if you believe in tithing or freewill giving, the testing of our faith will land on both sides of the coin of giving.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:53:33 AM
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P31W
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The ONLY time in scripture anyone is told to "test God" is in the area of tithing.
Mal. 3
10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the Lord Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:54:04 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
There are numerous testimonies from my blog of people who have tested God through Spirit-led giving and have been blessed, and spiritually challenged. It doesn't matter if you believe in tithing or freewill giving, the testing of our faith will land on both sides of the coin of giving.
Let me say this one more time: We cannot obligate God to give us anything.
If someone is giving to get, I don't care what their mode or method is, they are spiritual pigmies at best and have yet to grasp NT giving.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 11:56:21 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Let me say this one more time: We cannot obligate God to give us anything.
If someone is giving to get, I don't care what their mode or method is, they are spiritual pigmies at best and have yet to grasp NT giving.
uh. . . yeah. . i know. You're preaching to the choir.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 9:54:21 AM
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P31W
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Jimbo,
Explain your term obligate?
OK never mind. I have been thinking about what you said. Correct I agree we cannot obligate God to do anything. However I do believe God has obligated himself to do certain things.
When I read Foxes Book of Maryters and then reflected back on my own life experiences and that of others I began to repent of the way I viewed God's blessings. I realize that God has promised to meet our needs, give us blessings and so on but what I realized is that "I" feel "I" have a need and it's not being met it "me" who is wrong not God. If I don't have it then it's not a "need". (even if that is food, clothing, shelter, health or even physical life....it's not a need) God promises to meet my "need".....my need is for salvation, I need a Savior, I need forgiveness, I need God in my life etc."
I use to view my "needs" and the needs of others in the physical relm. Now I realize it's not of this world. That's why my church places spiritural food well above physical food. The lost world cannot understand that and want to judge us by "worldly standards" when they don't believe we give enough to meet the physical needs of people. They can only see what is in front of them and have no understanding of the eternal things.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/8/2008 10:01:17 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 10:26:12 AM
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JimboFletch
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If I put $100 in the offering plate, God is not obligated to have someone send me $1,000 or $10,000 in the mail to "pay" me for giving. There are a number of con-artists on TV like Mike Murdock and Kenneth Copeland and, before them, Oral Roberts that tell people you can get rich by feeding in a dollar to God's ministries (always theirs) and getting back ten or a hundred. It's just a variation on the God-is-our-celestial-geni.
God will honor good stewards but on His terms, not ours.
I only said that because invariably someone will make the false claim that tithers give in order to get.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/8/2008 11:59:13 AM
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P31W
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quote:
God will honor good stewards but on His terms, not ours.
I only said that because invariably someone will make the false claim that tithers give in order to get.
Yes I realized that after I though about it for a minute. We have on this thread people accuse many of us who teach and practice the tithe of believing the name it and claim it garbage. Most of their anti-tithing agruments are really aimed at that false teaching rather than trying to see what "we" (most christians) teach and believe on the topic.
I think many of the anti-tithers have fallen pry to that false doctrine and that is one reason why they are dogmatic in their stance.
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