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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 4:37:56 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
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ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
If I didn't bring it with me into the world, it's increase.
You want more scipture? Okay.
Jacob said to God in Genesis, "...of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You."
Excellent point and great verse.
To which I say:
2 Corinthians 9:6-7
6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
To which I say yet again, that passage was directed solely at needs outside the local church, foreign missions, if you will, and not for the local church. IOW, it was beyond normal giving.
The principle for local giving seems to be so obvious in the NT Church that Paul never addressed it - only extra outside giving. But since the OT is mostly window dressing to many today, I suppose that leaves us with nowhere to turn for instruction on local, regular giving...
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:05:52 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The principle for local giving seems to be so obvious in the NT Church that Paul never addressed it
SEEMS to me that you don't actually know, so all you are doing is guessing.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:07:59 PM
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Roberta_
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So, what is the problem with giving a 10% (or higher) tithe every week?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:09:39 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
So, what is the problem with giving a 10% (or higher) tithe every week?
There is no problem with giving 10% or higher tithe every week.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:14:56 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The principle for local giving seems to be so obvious in the NT Church that Paul never addressed it
SEEMS to me that you don't actually know, so all you are doing is guessing.
You just might be right, even though all that the Apostles and early Church had as God's written word was the OT, there's a possibility there was no need for Christians to give to any local needs after the book of Acts.
If I were a legalist, I'd expect a black & white, no-gray-areas NT statement commanding a 10% beginning as a return to God from grateful believers. But since I'm not, I simply try to find a biblical pattern, a principle to provide guidance.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:22:32 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I simply try to find a biblical pattern, a principle to provide guidance.
You are switching the principle with the pattern. The principle is not tithing, just as much as "selling all that you have giving to the poor" is not a principle. Tithing (as well as selling all you have) is a pattern, not principles.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:29:00 PM
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JimboFletch
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I haven't switched anything any more than giving cheerfully was a guide for local giving.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:29:39 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
a principle to provide guidance.
Tithing is not a principle.
So, let's get this straight: Tithing is a pattern to provide guidance.
Tithing can be A tool to teach stewardship(which is a principle).
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:32:17 PM
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JimboFletch
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The OT principle for giving was a tenth part of all that God gives us.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:34:31 PM
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Roberta_
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Could it be that tithing wasn't mentioned in the NT because nothing about it had been changed since the OT?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:34:32 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I haven't switched anything any more than giving cheerfully was a guide for local giving.
Wait a minute? doesn't God give Cheerfully? So why shouldn't local giving be done cheerfully?
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:38:40 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I haven't switched anything any more than giving cheerfully was a guide for local giving.
Wait a minute? doesn't God give Cheerfully? So why shouldn't local giving be done cheerfully?
How many promises made to God are required only if you feel cheerful about doing it? I think the biggest problems with so many marriages breaking up come from such notions.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:41:27 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Could it be that tithing wasn't mentioned in the NT because nothing about it had been changed since the OT?
OK, Woah there! What do you mean nothing changed about tithing in the NT? Um, you give money don't you? you give to a pastor don't you? You give to a church instead of a storage unit don't you? You don't honor the tithing feast. You give a the first fruits of you tithe, which was not allowed. What do you mean that tithing hadn't been changed. We made all these changes without any authorization to do so. We've just based it on how Israelite tithing best fits into the structure of the Church. I mean, how can pastors own land and take a tithe, unlike the Levites? How come our tithes could go towards buildings and maintenance? What do you mean there's no change? If anything tithers have changed God's commands on giving more than anyone.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:46:47 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
How many promises made to God are required only if you feel cheerful about doing it?
Well, isn't cheerful giving required or not? you can't narrow obedience down to just a few things, but neglect cheerfulness.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:51:44 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Could it be that tithing wasn't mentioned in the NT because nothing about it had been changed since the OT?
OK, Woah there! What do you mean nothing changed about tithing in the NT? Um, you give money don't you? you give to a pastor don't you? You give to a church instead of a storage unit don't you? You don't honor the tithing feast. You give a the first fruits of you tithe, which was not allowed. What do you mean that tithing hadn't been changed. We made all these changes without any authorization to do so. We've just based it on how Israelite tithing best fits into the structure of the Church. I mean, how can pastors own land and take a tithe, unlike the Levites? How come our tithes could go towards buildings and maintenance? What do you mean there's no change? If anything tithers have changed God's commands on giving more than anyone.
Ahh, I see, you have the legalist view. There's your whole problemo. See, it's spirit not the letter.
What!? I'm not the one who has to count my herbs and spices. I'm not the one who has questions on whether i should tithe on my taxes, or on my pension, what about bonuses? what about birthday gifts? What about my social security? what if i lose my job?
I'm not the one that has those questions or has to answer them. my friend, i am not the one that's a legalist.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:53:52 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Ahh, I see, you have the legalist view. There's your whole problemo. See, it's spirit not the letter.
My response came cause denimdiva said nothing changed. Hello! something did.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 5:56:36 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
How many promises made to God are required only if you feel cheerful about doing it?
Well, isn't cheerful giving required or not? you can't narrow obedience down to just a few things, but neglect cheerfulness.
Nope, not required. Read the passage, it'd take a legalist to come away with a required cheerfulness.
Cheerful is great, especially when promised for foreign missions, but scripture repeatedly asserts that obedience is required above all other characteristics, whether you have fun doing it or not.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 6:07:28 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Cheerful is great
Cheerful giving is either of God or it is of the enemy. It is not a wishy washy, middle ground "great"
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 11:10:14 PM
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TTABTG
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My 2 cents. I used to be a tither, i.e. giving under compulsion. Then I actually studied the topic and found that is not God's will for the Christian. Since He owns it all, He gets it all, after I have honored HIM by paying my bills, debts, feeding and clothing my family. After that, He gets whatever He leads me to give, wherever He leads me to give it.
The "cheerful" giver is a contrast to the one who gives under compulsion. God love a cheerful giver.
As for cheerful giving being giving to those "outside" the local church...what local church would the Corinthians have been giving to? They had no building, no paid pastors or deacons or Sunday school teachers. Everything was done on a voluntary basis as God called them. It was only after Christainity became "legal" in the empire that buildings were built, and later cathedrals and other expensive trappings. The giving then went to support these infrastructures that were unheard of before.
NT giving is to missions, widows, orphans, the sick, the homeless, itinerant ministers, and over the paster 1800 years, the local church to support the local meeting place and the paid staff (if there is one).
You can pay your tithe off the top of your check every two weeks if you like, but don't say you are "honoring God" if doing that puts you behind on your bills, has your creditors calling for payment (or worse yet, you are using debt to pay the tithe), is denying your family necessary things like food and clothing.
Thanks, Alec
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 7:56:42 AM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TTABTG
My 2 cents. I used to be a tither, i.e. giving under compulsion. Then I actually studied the topic and found that is not God's will for the Christian. Since He owns it all, He gets it all, after I have honored HIM by paying my bills, debts, feeding and clothing my family. After that, He gets whatever He leads me to give, wherever He leads me to give it.
The "cheerful" giver is a contrast to the one who gives under compulsion. God love a cheerful giver.
As for cheerful giving being giving to those "outside" the local church...what local church would the Corinthians have been giving to? They had no building, no paid pastors or deacons or Sunday school teachers. Everything was done on a voluntary basis as God called them. It was only after Christainity became "legal" in the empire that buildings were built, and later cathedrals and other expensive trappings. The giving then went to support these infrastructures that were unheard of before.
NT giving is to missions, widows, orphans, the sick, the homeless, itinerant ministers, and over the paster 1800 years, the local church to support the local meeting place and the paid staff (if there is one).
You can pay your tithe off the top of your check every two weeks if you like, but don't say you are "honoring God" if doing that puts you behind on your bills, has your creditors calling for payment (or worse yet, you are using debt to pay the tithe), is denying your family necessary things like food and clothing.
Thanks, Alec
Amen!!
I know churches (mine included) that allow you to pay your "tithe" online via Pay Pal. Uhh..that makes sense...NOT!
Let me pay my 10% via a credit card that charges 20% interest. 
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 8:42:40 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Nope, not required. Read the passage, it'd take a legalist to come away with a required cheerfulness.
Cheerful is great, especially when promised for foreign missions, but scripture repeatedly asserts that obedience is required above all other characteristics, whether you have fun doing it or not.
Cheerful giving is either of God or it is of the enemy. It is not a wishy washy, middle ground "great"
Cheerfulness can come from a warm fuzzy feeling due to learning your favorite football team won its game last night.
Or it can come from a grateful heart to God. Or anything in between.
The enemy doesn't have to be involved at all.
We are human and do not always have the purest of motives OR feelings.
As I've said before, I began intentional giving out of a sense of obedience to what I believed was God's will for me. I wasn't cheerful about it until AFTER I was obedient - and that didn't happen overnight.
You continue to seem to want a black & white, carefully mapped out answer for everything. That's as legalistic as anything you've said against my POV.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 9:03:43 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TTABTG
You can pay your tithe off the top of your check every two weeks if you like, but don't say you are "honoring God" if doing that puts you behind on your bills, has your creditors calling for payment (or worse yet, you are using debt to pay the tithe), is denying your family necessary things like food and clothing.
Alec, I wanted to address several things in your post but I am truly amazed at that statement. I started honoring God with 10% of my gross income off the top when I was only marginally above the poverty level, married, and with two small children - before I had a mortgage.
That was in 1980.
Since then, I've put the children through college, paid off my mortgage, been laid off, and began a new career at 54 at one third lower salary than before. All while giving at least a tenth of the top of my income - often more.
Never, ever during that time did a single, solitary bill go unpaid, did my family miss a meal, nor go without adequate housing or clothing.
I have serious issues with any Christian who implies that God cannot be trusted to provide for anyone who would worship Him with a tenth of their income. I have been poor, higher middle class, and down again and I have not suffered from honoring God first in my life in any area - including financially. People who are poor stewards at 90% of whatever they are making will be bad stewards with 200% of what they are making. Don't blame God for that.
There should never be a time in a mature Christian's life where there is an area that God doesn't have first place - whether marriage, job, raising children, or finances. It is a big red flag to me to hear that God should get the leftovers of anything.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 9:12:01 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TTABTG
As for cheerful giving being giving to those "outside" the local church...what local church would the Corinthians have been giving to?
You answered your own question with:
quote:
NT giving is to ...widows, orphans, the sick, the homeless, itinerant ministers...
Not that I have issues with having a building dedicated to worship and prayer, but a church that isn't ministering beyond their 4 walls is not exhibiting Christ-like behavior and is little more than a club. Either directly or indirectly, ministry within the community costs the local church. That's what the local church would be giving to.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 9:17:32 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
I know churches (mine included) that allow you to pay your "tithe" online via Pay Pal. Uhh..that makes sense...NOT!
PayPal accounts are generally setup as checking account transaction. People too lazy or ignorant to go to that trouble can use a credit card. There are poor stewards and good stewards of the money that God gives us in many arenas.
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