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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 5:42:29 PM
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hawkfan428
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quote:
Jesus said, Don't neglect the tithe (Matthew 23:23).
And that tithe consisted of what in that passage? It was cumin, mint and dill.
No mention of money.
Paul talks of giving, not tithing. There is a huge difference between the two. One involves money, the other involves products of your land.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 6:16:18 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hawkfan428
quote:
Jesus said, Don't neglect the tithe (Matthew 23:23).
And that tithe consisted of what in that passage? It was cumin, mint and dill.
No mention of money.
Paul talks of giving, not tithing. There is a huge difference between the two. One involves money, the other involves products of your land.
This is also true.
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 6:29:44 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hawkfan428
quote:
Jesus said, Don't neglect the tithe (Matthew 23:23).
And that tithe consisted of what in that passage? It was cumin, mint and dill.
No mention of money.
One of the funny things is that tithe teachers say that God required food for the tithe because that's what most people had back then.
If that's not putting words in God's mouth, than i don't know what is? 
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 9:06:48 PM
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peace77
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quote:
And that tithe consisted of what in that passage? It was cumin, mint and dill.
Jesus spoke of tithing spices and herbs in order to make a point. A point that you have missed entirely because you've missed the entire forest while looking at a single leaf.
Peace,
Anne
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 9:21:52 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peace77
quote:
And that tithe consisted of what in that passage? It was cumin, mint and dill.
Jesus spoke of tithing spices and herbs in order to make a point. A point that you have missed entirely because you've missed the entire forest while looking at a single leaf.
My guess- the point was that they neglected the weightier matters of the law, and they should have done both. The question here is whether tithing is a relevant law for us, not whether justice mercy or faith is. We all agree on that.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 11:14:53 PM
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peace77
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quote:
My guess- the point was that they neglected the weightier matters of the law, and they should have done both.
Yes. They should have done both but they were so busy counting out herbs and measuring spices by exact weight that they didn't or couldn't see what was most important. They were absolutely precise in their measurements but had no love, mercy or sense of justice.
Jesus knew that his disciples were listening. He didn't tell them that the tithe didn't apply anymore.
It was believed to continue just as we believe the sun will be there again in the morning.
Peace,
Anne
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 8:18:04 AM
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hawkfan428
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peace77
quote:
And that tithe consisted of what in that passage? It was cumin, mint and dill.
Jesus spoke of tithing spices and herbs in order to make a point. A point that you have missed entirely because you've missed the entire forest while looking at a single leaf.
Peace,
Anne
Good Morning Anne,
Jesus did make the point of the Pharisees neglecting justice and mercy while ensuring to tithe down to the nth degree of accuracy. That I'll give you. But.....
Show me in the OT where the tithe was ever about money. Additionally, show me in Paul's letters where Paul directed the Gentile Christian churches to tithe. You're not going to find it.
The tithe was products of your land (oil, grain, produce), not money. Remember, the tithe was to provide needs for the Levitical priests since they were not to own land and not to get an inheritance.
The Pharisees, in their compassion for laws, also expanded the tithe to include products from their spice gardens. A classic example of adding to God's word.
By comparison, any church today who wants a tithe of money has also added to God's word. It's about giving, not "tithing", money.
As I've stated before, if you feel compelled to give 10%, then give 10%. If you are compelled to give less, give less. If you are compelled to give more, then give more. But there's no biblical requirement for Christians to "tithe", and I'm willing to bet that any church who demands a tithe would be offended if someone put olive oil, grain and produce in the collection plate.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 8:30:47 AM
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draexo
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quote:
Would it be ok to tithe and then find out later on that the church I was tithing to was teaching something that was in contradiction to God's Word? I personally would not feel very good about that.
God cares about your heart and your attitude, not your pocketbook. If you gave in good faith and later found out it was misrepresented, it is natural to feel angry. However, I do not believe God is going to hold you accountable because you unknowingly supported a heretical church - that is if you stopped once you found out they were heretical.
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The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 9:43:49 AM
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Soxfan
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Not to mention that the tithe was on INCREASE, never on regular wages.
Funny that there is absolutely NO mention of tithing after Jesus death and resurrection. Not one mention of it in Acts when the early church was being implemented.
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 9:59:06 AM
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hawkfan428
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Not to mention that the tithe was on INCREASE, never on regular wages.
Funny that there is absolutely NO mention of tithing after Jesus death and resurrection. Not one mention of it in Acts when the early church was being implemented.
Nobody loves to preach tithing more than WoF... Oh, wait, that's a different thread. My bad.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 9:59:16 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peace77
quote:
My guess- the point was that they neglected the weightier matters of the law, and they should have done both.
It was believed to continue just as we believe the sun will be there again in the morning.
My list of tithing inconsistencies in the new covenant era:
I know there is no verse in the new testament that rescinds the tithe, but there's also no command to change it how we've done so either. Here's what i mean. We've said that our tithes should come from our first fruits, when the first fruit offering was very different, and was given separately. The tithe did not consist of the first and best until we've decided to mingle it in the church era.
We've said the tithe is a representation of Jesus, although there were two other types of giving in the old testament that actually were representations of Jesus. First fruit offerings, and sacrificial lambs were actual representations of Jesus. The tithe is not pictorial in that manner. (the lamb was spotless and was slain. Jesus was the first fruit of the harvest of God. Sure the number 10 might have a numerical meaning, but the tithe is not pictorial.)
Of course as we recently mentioned, giving from our income when the bible is clear that God asked the tithe from the land and animals. Sure we can say that this is the grace age and that is the letter of the law, but can one interpret grace to cover only the product and not the percentage?
Another thing is the OT priests had no land portion or inheritance and so therefore they were given a tithe. First thing, we don't support this principle of prohibiting our pastors an inheritance of land. Second thing, the priests were pictorial of Jesus Christ and were given the tithe, but our pastors are not pictorial of Jesus Christ, but we've given them a portion of the tithe.(Yes, Yes! i believe that our ministers should be blessed beyond even their wants, and can own land)
There are so many inconsistencies here, and all we do is just sweep these inconsistencies under the "grace" rug.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 12:06:17 PM
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LBolt
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I believe by virtue of Christ's Melchizedec's ministry which is a continuation of the ministry who bless Avraham, offered up prayers and intercessions etc, and if the earthly ministry of the tabernacle and priesthood was indeed an earthly representattion of the heavenly one, we ought to follow the pattern and serve God with our money through our gifts. If Avraham paid tithes we should as well.
We serve God with our obedience to His Word, our love for the saints, fullfilling the call on our lives and with our money!
I find that the one's who argue against tithing are the main one's who don't give anyway. 
Most people are not farmers or cattle herders as was the people in the old-Testament.
Heb. 7, Matt. 23:23
Remember, the New Covenant is nothing more than God's Torah being written on our hearts and minds, the sending of the Holy Spirit to indwell us, forgiveness and acceptance of God as His people. The covenant was given to "The house of Israel and the House of Judah."
Gentiles are grafted in.
Torah teaches tithing therefore we are to tithe.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 12:45:28 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I believe by virtue of Christ's Melchizedec's ministry which is a continuation of the ministry who bless Avraham, offered up prayers and intercessions etc, and if the earthly ministry of the tabernacle and priesthood was indeed an earthly representation of the heavenly one, we ought to follow the pattern and serve God with our money through our gifts. If Avraham paid tithes we should as well.
i have no problem with those that want to give a tithe because of Avraham's example. Although I don't feel that it is commanded, a minimum requirement, or even anything that God asks for his NT church. It is an assumption that Avraham gave the tithe because God commanded it. It is a fact and is recorded that a tithe was a Babylonian tax at that time. That is the clearest and most direct evidence we have to assume any of Avraham's motives. All other assumptions are based on interpretations and opinions. Further in the scriptures there is more supporting evidence that God had not commanded it yet, because of Yacob's voluntary tithe offering later on.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 12:56:16 PM
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LBolt
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This is pretty interesting.
I recently read a copy of the scroll of Yahsher (Jasher) and it states that Shem was Melchizedec and that he taught Torah at that time. Avraham learned from him as the scroll reads. This is not a canonized scroll but it does offer good insights. I don't think it's coincidental to say the least. Clean and unclean animals was before the Law of Moses as well as the Unleavened Bread feast is alluded in, I believe Gen. 18, Avraham was said that he kept God's statues, judgements and laws (Torots or Torah) before the giving of the Law of Moses.
I don't believe it was anything new just repeated later to a nation He covenanted with.
Interesting indeed.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 1:07:16 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I recently read a copy of the scroll of Yahsher (Jasher) and it states that Shem was Melchizedec and that he taught Torah at that time. Avraham learned from him as the scroll reads. This is not a canonized scroll but it does offer good insights. I don't think it's coincidental to say the least. Clean and unclean animals was before the Law of Moses as well as the Unleavened Bread feast is alluded in, I believe Gen. 18, Avraham was said that he kept God's statues, judgements and laws (Torots or Torah) before the giving of the Law of Moses.
I don't believe it was anything new just repeated later to a nation He covenanted with.
A lot of people do think that Melchizedek was shem, but most of them will say, there's no way to tell.
I agree, that many laws had been implemented before Moses. We can see that in altar sacrifices, first fruit offerings, and clean and unclean animals. All these are specifically mentioned in scripture long before Moses came along. Many people don't understand that tithing, if it was commanded before Moses, was still under the law. Abraham's practices do not make tithing any more universally binding, just because it was before Moses.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 1:23:25 PM
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LBolt
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I think I might have stated this before, that the New Covenant is nothing more than the old covenant written on our hearts. Of the priesthood changed and the sacrifices have been suspended due to the Temple being destroyed and our far superior sacrifice in Messiah. The New Covenant could be termed the Renewed Covenant or Unused Covenant because that generation fail to obey the voice of God
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 1:38:17 PM
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hawkfan428
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quote:
I find that the one's who argue against tithing are the main one's who don't give anyway.
My wife and I give to the needy all the time, and support a drug rehab ministry.
Kind of a blanket statement there.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 1:52:14 PM
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LBolt
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I meant they don't tithe to their church. Sorry!
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 2:10:38 PM
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hawkfan428
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I meant they don't tithe to their church. Sorry!
Now see, you said "give" earlier. And now it's "tithe". My point all along is that "tithing" involves produce, oil and grain from your land.
"Giving" involves money. The word "tithe" is abused by too many churches these days, and is justification for pastors driving Escalades and living in houses worth a half-million, time shares, etc, to justify this practice.
I don't begrudge pastors making a decent living, but when they live better than most of the congregation, then there's an issue.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 2:40:57 PM
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LBolt
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To my understanding money in that time frame was measured in gold, silver, cattle, livestock, produce etc. because it was a means of exchange. Such as dollars are today. I admit that some pastors have overindulged themselves and behaved like Hophi and Phineas did in I Sam. 3-4, but their many responsible God fearing man and women of God who will not take advantage of the flock.
Now a days more emphasis is about a big building, massive building fund drives etc, which in the early church they all had things in common and sought to meet the needs of each other. Of course if you were able to work you did so but if you needed assistance it was certainly provided for. I or II Cor. 9 speaks of giving to the needy church in Jerusalem who was impoverished due to a famine. I know this is one of the scriptures used to get people to give however the context is dealing with freewill offerings which was used to care for the needy and not the greedy.
Hawkfan428, I'm finding out that there are a lot of practices today that have nothing to do with what the Bible taught!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 2:45:05 PM
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hawkfan428
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quote:
Hawkfan428, I'm finding out that there are a lot of practices today that have nothing to do with what the Bible taught!
Agreed!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 2:58:29 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hawkfan428
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I meant they don't tithe to their church. Sorry!
Now see, you said "give" earlier. And now it's "tithe". My point all along is that "tithing" involves produce, oil and grain from your land.
"Giving" involves money. The word "tithe" is abused by too many churches these days, and is justification for pastors driving Escalades and living in houses worth a half-million, time shares, etc, to justify this practice.
I don't begrudge pastors making a decent living, but when they live better than most of the congregation, then there's an issue.
You may not think tithing is appropriate today, that's fine, but tithe means 10%. From the dictionary:
From Dictionary.com
1. Sometimes, tithes. the tenth part of agricultural produce or personal income set apart as an offering to God or for works of mercy, or the same amount regarded as an obligation or tax for the support of the church, priesthood, or the like.
From the American Heritage Dictionary:
1.
a. A tenth part of one's annual income contributed voluntarily or due as a tax, especially for the support of the clergy or church.
b. The institution or obligation of paying tithes.
c. A tenth part.
d. A very small part.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 3:07:18 PM
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hawkfan428
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: hawkfan428
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I meant they don't tithe to their church. Sorry!
Now see, you said "give" earlier. And now it's "tithe". My point all along is that "tithing" involves produce, oil and grain from your land.
"Giving" involves money. The word "tithe" is abused by too many churches these days, and is justification for pastors driving Escalades and living in houses worth a half-million, time shares, etc, to justify this practice.
I don't begrudge pastors making a decent living, but when they live better than most of the congregation, then there's an issue.
You may not think tithing is appropriate today, that's fine, but tithe means 10%. From the dictionary:
From Dictionary.com
1. Sometimes, tithes. the tenth part of agricultural produce or personal income set apart as an offering to God or for works of mercy, or the same amount regarded as an obligation or tax for the support of the church, priesthood, or the like.
From the American Heritage Dictionary:
1.
a. A tenth part of one's annual income contributed voluntarily or due as a tax, especially for the support of the clergy or church.
b. The institution or obligation of paying tithes.
c. A tenth part.
d. A very small part.
My bible dictionary defines tithing as a practice that was performed in the Old Testament times, and consisted of products from your land.
In addition, here is a link that discusses tithing:
http://bible-truths.com/tithing.html
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