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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/21/2008 11:05:24 AM
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peace77
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jbbaab44
quote:
Doesn't the Spirit have the authority (above any principle or law) to instruct a person or congregation to redirect their whole contribution elsewhere?
JimboFletch wrote:
quote:
Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit would instruct an individual or congregation to let the widows, orphans, aged, and others in need in their midst and in their community go without any assistance while they ship their whole contribution off elsewhere?
Some people teach that the whole tithe is to be given to the local church and nowhere else.
However, some churches are more like country clubs than 1st century churches. They have well paid pastors who drive expensive cars, fancy church buildings with designer furnishings but no benovolence fund. They don't take care of the widows, orphans, seniors or others in need. They aren't willing to give to others. If they give at all, they give a token payment that is far less than they could easily afford to give.
If this is your church and you feel led to care for the needy, giving outside the local church could mean giving to organizations that provide food, shelter, warmth, assistance with utilities, medical care, clean water, clothing and other needs either locally or in a distant community.
Peace,
Anne
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/21/2008 11:19:24 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
However, some churches are more like country clubs...
More than having a benevolence fund, my church is a launching pad where actual members visit, clothe, feed, provide transportation, and minister Christ as needed to not just members but the community around us. Many of us also go to countries in the Caribean, Latin & South America, and eastern Europe to minister and share the Gospel - at our own expense & in addition to our regular giving.
The church you mention is more like a tomb than a country club. In any case, it's certainly not a functioning body of Christ.
Giving might begin with an offering of money, but when the Holy Spirit is in it, the whole person is involved.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/21/2008 11:58:14 AM
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peace77
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quote:
In any case, it's certainly not a functioning body of Christ.
I agree.
And there are still more churches that are very small and too poor to even take care of their building and won't even consider giving.
They haven't yet learned God's principles.
Peace,
Anne
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/21/2008 4:20:00 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peace77
quote:
In any case, it's certainly not a functioning body of Christ.
I agree.
And there are still more churches that are very small and too poor to even take care of their building and won't even consider giving.
They haven't yet learned God's principles.
Peace,
Anne
Interesting... I grew up in a small church that might have 20-30 people on an unusual Sunday but usually less. I remember them as a very caring and giving family of believers, even though none had much money.
I remember when we called our first full-time pastor. We seldom had ever taken in the amount the church committed to give him, yet when he came there was always enough for our meager needs and his salary.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/23/2008 5:38:07 PM
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Roberta_
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I haven't read any of this thread (that I can remember). Sorry, if this has been covered already.
I really feel led to tithe. However, right now I really don't have a "home" church. I've been giving $5-$10 every Sunday to whatever church I'm visiting. 10% of my check would be closer to giving $25-$30 every Sunday or $50-$60 every payday.
To me that is a lot of money to give to a church that may or may not have a Biblical doctrine. I have no problem giving that money to God. I do have a problem with putting it in an offering basket and chancing that it may go to a doctrine that will lead others astray. I've always thought of giving to charities as gifts and giving to the church as a tithe.
Last week I was unable to attend church, but the week before I did. The message was about listening to God. A very strong conviction came over me about my lack of tithing. Am I making too much out of where the money goes?
Has anyone else experienced this?
Does anyone have any suggestions?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/23/2008 9:49:20 PM
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peace77
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Abbie,
I too, hesitate to give when I don't know a church. Alternatives could include giving to a church that you attended in the past or giving to a Christian charity that provides for the needy. The bible tells us to provide for the widows, orphans and those in need. Possible places to give include, the local Christian Rescue Mission or Christian homeless shelter, food bank, Salvation Army, Operation Blessing, or the local Crisis pregnancy center.
Hopefully, you will find a church home soon.
Peace,
Anne
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/23/2008 9:52:15 PM
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Harvie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peace77
Abbie,
I too, hesitate to give when I don't know a church. Alternatives could include giving to a church that you attended in the past or giving to a Christian charity that provides for the needy. The bible tells us to provide for the widows, orphans and those in need. Possible places to give include, the local Christian Rescue Mission or Christian homeless shelter, food bank, Salvation Army, Operation Blessing, or the local Crisis pregnancy center.
Hopefully, you will find a church home soon.
Peace,
Anne
I agree with Anne's advice.
_____________________________
 PRAISE THE LORD -- MY HUSBAND IS BACK FROM IRAQ
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/23/2008 9:53:23 PM
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Roberta_
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Hi Anne- thanks for your response.
When I give to places like you've mentioned, I think of it as a gift rather than a tithe. Am I correct in my thinking that the two are separate?
I like the idea of giving to my old church.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/23/2008 11:50:26 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abbie_girl
Hi Anne- thanks for your response.
When I give to places like you've mentioned, I think of it as a gift rather than a tithe. Am I correct in my thinking that the two are separate?
I like the idea of giving to my old church.
You have a great heart to give, and am glad for your concern in obedience. I just want to throw my 2 cents out there. God does not ask his children under the New Covenant to designate certain amounts of gifts to separate ministries. There is no reason to withhold your giving just because you are worried about commands that were given to the Israelite nation under completely different circumstances, and under a different covenant. God gave us his Spirit to help us, to guide us, and to train us. His authority is above the old covenant and He can guide you on how to give, and where to give. If God had equipped the law with answers on how his church should support ministry, than God wouldn't have left us with a Spiritual gift of giving. Spirit-led giving answers these complicated and specific questions that the law or basic principles cannot answer alone. The Spirit should guide our actions in giving just like it guides our actions in other Spiritual gifts like love, teaching, wisdom, and administration.
The tithe and all of its complicated interpretations acts as a stumbling block to many Christians, and i don't want it to stumble your giving. As i said above, there is no reason to withhold your giving just because of the tithing circumstances under the old covenant. I don't wish to offend you with my 2 cents here, and i don't want to discourage you from giving your tithe. By all means i hope you set these goals for yourself and achieve them. I just know that for my own life lawful giving became a stumbling block, and am glad that God's revealed to me a more fulfilling type of giving.
Phillippians 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.
Exodus 35:21 and everyone who was willing and whose heart moved him came and brought an offering to the Lord for the work on the Tent of Meeting
_____________________________
Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/23/2008 11:57:06 PM
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Roberta_
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jbb- sorry if I worded that wrong. I have no problem giving those gifts. I just don't see that as part of a tithe. I think that gifts should be given in addition to a tithe rather than as part of a tithe. KWIM?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/24/2008 12:32:14 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abbie_girl
jbb- sorry if I worded that wrong. I have no problem giving those gifts. I just don't see that as part of a tithe. I think that gifts should be given in addition to a tithe rather than as part of a tithe. KWIM?
Yes, i know what you mean. i just struggled myself when i had to figure out the minimum tithe that should go here, and how much offering/gift should go there. There's so much grey area if we try to follow the guidelines of giving that Israel or Abraham did. I think its a good thing to figure a budget out and set minimum goals for giving to your local church, and other ministries. i just didn't want you to get locked up in the mentality that your tithe must absolutely go to your local church.
Many people ask questions about what to do with their tithe in this unique situation or that unique situation, but the truth is, that all you can get is educated guesses based on principles in the bible; because Israel's commands in giving were very unique and tailored to that religious system. It's impossible to fit their situations of giving into ours.
I personally don't think that God designates the tithe to the local church in the new testament, like he did it for the levites in the old testament. Although i do think it should be a priority of our giving to support our local fellowship. I believe God left us Spirit to guide us how much and where we should give. Does this mean that i think we shouldn't give 10% to our church if we want? No. By all means. Please do.
I guess i just rambled on, but i just want to say that ever since i started to pray and seek counsel from God about what i should do with my giving, is when my communication and relationship with God began to grow. When i just tithed to my church and just knew that's what i had to do without any questions asked is when my communication with God suffered. And that was a stumbling block.
_____________________________
Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2008 8:18:13 AM
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P31W
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quote:
When I give to places like you've mentioned, I think of it as a gift rather than a tithe. Am I correct in my thinking that the two are separate?
The main thing for me if I were between Chruches would be that the place I was giving my tithes to was doing the "work" of the Chruch and doing it in the name of Christ. Giving a drink of water for me is of little value if it's not attached to people being told that it's given in the name of Christ.
If you however don't feel comfortable with giving to para-shoot ministries then giving to your old church would certainly be a great place to give.
BTW you may not realize this but the Salvation Army is a church. The church is made up of many homeless and jobless folks so all outside donations are welcome. (I am not a member of that Chruch but am familiar with it)
< Message edited by P31W -- 2/25/2008 8:26:51 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2008 12:03:08 PM
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peace77
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quote:
BTW you may not realize this but the Salvation Army is a church
This is true.
However, the reason that I suggested the Salvation Army is because of the work they do to help the needy and the fact that they have among the lowest percentage of funds spent on fundraising and administration as compared to other non-profit organizations that help the needy.
The Salvation Army works all over the United States and in 109 foreign countries. Each leader is also a minster. If you check their international website (www.SalvationArmy.org), you can see that Evangelism is an important part of their work. Check the 2nd page of their Mission in Community booklet. Mission in Community
Their US website is www.SalvationArmy.org
When people need help to pay the rent, pay a utility bill, get food, medical care or help with other needs, they can turn to the Salvation Army.
They provide meals and shelter for homeless people. They provide rehab programs for alcoholics, drug addicts and former prisoners. They provide for the needs of people affected by disasters. During 2006, they spent over $3 billion dollars providing services to people.
Peace,
Anne.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/27/2008 2:11:02 PM
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hawkfan428
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OK, here's my 2 cents on tithing:
As we all know, tithing was from the OT. We also know that the tithe was used to support the levitical priests, since they were not to own property or land. This tithe was not money, but a share of the harvest from the land that you owned (herbs, vegetables, etc).
Fast forward to the NT. There is nothing in the NT that directs us to tithe, much less tithe money. Paul's letters were for the purpose of educating the Gentiles on how to run their churches. Not one mention of tithing at all by Paul. If this were so important to the Christian life, wouldn't have Paul mentioned this?
This is not to say that we are not to give. On the contrary, "God loves a cheerful giver". Some people define that as giving 10% of their income, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Others give what they can and give to the needy, and that's not wrong either.
The problem lies in churches that emphasize tithing and make it mandatory. This is not from the NT. It's a classic case of scriptural abuse.
Give what you are compelled to give. If it's 10%, give 10%. If it's less than that, then give less than that. If it's more than 10%, give more than 10%. If you give, you are not in the wrong.
If a church mandates a tithe, then they need to do their homework on the NT. If you're going to mandate a tithe, then you may as well bring back all the OT practices, including animal sacrifice. But, then again, animal sacrifices would then mean that you do not accept Jesus' blood as atonement for your sins. Some food for thought.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/27/2008 3:56:46 PM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hawkfan428
OK, here's my 2 cents on tithing:
As we all know, tithing was from the OT. We also know that the tithe was used to support the levitical priests, since they were not to own property or land. This tithe was not money, but a share of the harvest from the land that you owned (herbs, vegetables, etc).
Fast forward to the NT. There is nothing in the NT that directs us to tithe, much less tithe money. Paul's letters were for the purpose of educating the Gentiles on how to run their churches. Not one mention of tithing at all by Paul. If this were so important to the Christian life, wouldn't have Paul mentioned this?
This is not to say that we are not to give. On the contrary, "God loves a cheerful giver". Some people define that as giving 10% of their income, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Others give what they can and give to the needy, and that's not wrong either.
The problem lies in churches that emphasize tithing and make it mandatory. This is not from the NT. It's a classic case of scriptural abuse.
Give what you are compelled to give. If it's 10%, give 10%. If it's less than that, then give less than that. If it's more than 10%, give more than 10%. If you give, you are not in the wrong.
If a church mandates a tithe, then they need to do their homework on the NT. If you're going to mandate a tithe, then you may as well bring back all the OT practices, including animal sacrifice. But, then again, animal sacrifices would then mean that you do not accept Jesus' blood as atonement for your sins. Some food for thought.
Amen, Amen, and AMEN!
Did I also mention AMEN?
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/27/2008 4:56:17 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hawkfan428
If a church mandates a tithe, then they need to do their homework on the NT. If you're going to mandate a tithe, then you may as well bring back all the OT practices, including animal sacrifice. But, then again, animal sacrifices would then mean that you do not accept Jesus' blood as atonement for your sins. Some food for thought.
Good post and good facts.
It is written, “through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you...”
I’ve researched this unscriptural teaching in great detail and those who teach tithing as applicable for the Christian do so either out of not knowing Scripture, or worse yet out of the twisting of Scripture.
Giving is Scriptural. Helping fellow saints in need, widows and orphans is Scriptural. Tithing is not.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 10:21:43 AM
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oldmethuselah
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quote:
If a church mandates a tithe, then they need to do their homework on the NT. If you're going to mandate a tithe, then you may as well bring back all the OT practices, including animal sacrifice. But, then again, animal sacrifices would then mean that you do not accept Jesus' blood as atonement for your sins. Some food for thought.
HAWKFAN
I remember a story about a chap whose income went from $20,000 to $100,00 as he prospered...
He went to the Pastor and said he was now having difficulty tithing, as he used to, so the Pastor prayed that his income would be REDUCED back to it's ORIGINAL number so he could then feel comfortable about TITHING!
ROFL
I am afraid, so MANY who have posted here are suffering the same dilemna as the Rich Man, we are having trouble with our VELCRO PURSES...
they SCREAM when we open them!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 12:16:00 PM
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hawkfan428
Posts: 238
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quote:
ORIGINAL: oldmethuselah
quote:
If a church mandates a tithe, then they need to do their homework on the NT. If you're going to mandate a tithe, then you may as well bring back all the OT practices, including animal sacrifice. But, then again, animal sacrifices would then mean that you do not accept Jesus' blood as atonement for your sins. Some food for thought.
HAWKFAN
I remember a story about a chap whose income went from $20,000 to $100,00 as he prospered...
He went to the Pastor and said he was now having difficulty tithing, as he used to, so the Pastor prayed that his income would be REDUCED back to it's ORIGINAL number so he could then feel comfortable about TITHING!
ROFL
I am afraid, so MANY who have posted here are suffering the same dilemna as the Rich Man, we are having trouble with our VELCRO PURSES...
they SCREAM when we open them!
Funny story. We all have to keep in mind, though, that any mandate to tithe is a church thing and not a scripture thing.
However, feel free to give all you want!!!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 1:13:24 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6966
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: oldmethuselah
I am afraid, so MANY who have posted here are suffering the same dilemna as the Rich Man, we are having trouble with our VELCRO PURSES...
they SCREAM when we open them!
LOL!!
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 1:18:53 PM
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LBolt
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From my understanding of tithing, it was well practiced before the Law was given as we see Avraham paying tithes to Melchizadek, Jacob tithe as well. We are all children of Avraham and we should follow in his foots steps. Yahshua said in Matt. 23:23, say"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."
Lu 11:42 - Show Context
But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Christ's eternal priesthood is after the order of Melchizadek, who received tithes from Avraham, therefore, 10% of our income is the least we ought to give. When we tithe today, we are not giving to man but to God's work. With that being said, I would certainly make sure this a work of God.
Paul speaks of "communicating" out of are carnel things to those who minister to us spiritual substance and that the workman is worthy of his hire. If you have a ministry that is truly commited to the work of Yahshua, we ought to be privelged to give to further the KoG. We always throw out the "this is OT, we are under the NT" argument. However, we don't know we are really saying.
The reason the Holy Spirit convicted you DenimDiva to tithe is because it's Biblical! I pray you find a church home to attend and get rooted in. Those who don't tithe will always find a reason not to. He promised to bless us if we do!
Oh well, that's my 2 cents or 10% on the matter.  LOL
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 3:14:09 PM
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notmycity
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
The reason the Holy Spirit convicted you DenimDiva to tithe is because it's Biblical!
Care to show where it is commanded (even once) for Christians to “tithe”?
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 3:22:06 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1176
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Would it be ok to tithe and then find out later on that the church I was tithing to was teaching something that was in contradiction to God's Word? I personally would not feel very good about that.
Help widows and orphans by all means, but anyone that teaches tithing is in error.
1 Tim 1:5-8
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 DESIRING TO BE TEACHERS OF THE LAW; UNDERSTANDING NEITHER WHAT THEY SAY, NOR WHEREOF THEY AFFIRM.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully....
Tithing was of the Mosaic law, for the house of Israel.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 3:54:49 PM
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peace77
Posts: 722
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Notmycity,
You quoted 1 Tim 1:8
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully.
The OT law required tithes to be given. Just as the 10 Commandment were never cancelled, the tithe was not cancelled either.
Jesus said, Don't neglect the tithe (Matthew 23:23).
Peace,
Anne
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 4:13:12 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1176
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peace77
The OT law required tithes to be given. Just as the 10 Commandment were never cancelled, the tithe was not cancelled either.
Then is it also reasonable to construe that you practice all of the laws listed in the OT?
Example:
Lev 23:1-8
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Do you observe the Jewish feasts? Do you observe the Sabbath?
Does the following apply to you and yours?:
Deut 23:12-13
12 "You shall also have a place outside the camp and go out there,
13 and you shall have a spade among your tools, and it shall be when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and shall turn to cover up your excrement.
(NAS)
Even though the law is referenced in the epistles pertaining to giving, can you show where the tithe is commanded via the apostles?
You will NEVER find command for disciples to tithe in the NT.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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