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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 10:35:49 AM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/25/2008 10:37:22 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
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I believe you are a divinity student, right?
Have your professors taught you about the mercy seat yet?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 10:39:59 AM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/25/2008 10:59:22 AM
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sue244
Posts: 437
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
quote:
Don't put words in my mouth, no where have I said that matter is bad
You didn't, Sue. That's just the emergent way of dealing with certain biblical doctrine's, like the end of the world and God's power and sovereignty. You can read Pagitt's sadly but seriously misnamed "A Christianity Worth Believing" for such buckeyes (for what is a buckeye but a worthless nut, with apologies to OSU fans) as this...
quote:
Our image of God as the all-powerful, removed, holy king is really much more influenced by Zeus and other gods than by the story of our faith.
Doug Pagitt, A Christianity Worth Believing, p. 100
If we buy into the Greek version of god, and therefore the Greek version of sin and humanity, we are left with terrible consequences. There's an internal logic here that few of us talk about but that many of us live by all the same. If we believe that God is reachable only when we are fully changed, we're stuck with an afterlife-focues faith.
Doug Pagitt, A Christianity Worth Believing, p. 113
So any attempt to talk about God being close, involved, and integrated with humanity smacks of taking the deity right out of God, of turning God into little more than a really great guy. As if that weren't enough, the language of integration also brings with it concerns of glorifying humanity, of ignoring our supposed filth and sin and brokenness that goes along with the idea of the pure, unsullied God. Perhaps that's why Christians tend to get a little weirded out by the suggestion that God might be something other than up and out.
Doug Pagitt, A Christianity Worth Believing, p. 108
It's not your fault, Sue. It's what emergents have to say that you are saying in order to not see the truth in what you're saying.
Thanks Jazz. I know what he was doing I just don't like being used for a strawman.
_____________________________
"Indeed I Tremble for this country when I reflect that God is Just and His Justice cannot Sleep Forever"
Jefferson
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” Churchill
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/25/2008 11:04:10 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
So, if my choice is between arrogance or insanity, I gladly choose arrogance
I hate to write this but this is from not reading you scriptures right. Ezekiel 28:12-17 "You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden the Garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysollite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you O guardian cherb, from the fiery stones. Your heart became proud on the account of your beauty and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made you a spectacle of you before kings."
Notice the word proud that God uses to describe what caused satan to get the removal from heaven. I would rather be lest humble enough to hear God's voice. Then to say I have all the answers and miss the boat as it sailed away from me. Because I was to proud to hear him talk to me through someelse.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/25/2008 11:08:51 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
lol, crankius.
Why don't you stop being so evasive and tell me how you think the mercy seat fits into all of this.
You seem overly fixated on this one aspect and I don't know why.
It's funny. I've asked you many times to explain how EC theology understands the mercy seat. You keep turning the question back to me.
I am not emerging, so I can't explain how EC theology understands the mercy seat.
If EC theology has no understanding of the mercy seat, just say so.
MY understanding of the mercy seat is not at issue. This is the EC thread, not the Crankius thread.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/25/2008 11:10:21 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
I believe you are a divinity student, right?
Have your professors taught you about the mercy seat yet?
I really am curious. Have your professors talked about the mercy seat? Is it something you have studied?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/25/2008 11:39:27 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11695
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From: Here, now
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
This thread needs a time out. There are enough harrassing posts on both sides to warrant not reopening it--curiously, that has been the fate of all the other threads on this topic.
Take a few days to consider how you respond to one another, re-read the TOS and then we'll try one more time.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/1/2008 5:38:25 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6205
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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Are we still waiting for an answer to the mercy seat question? Sorry, I took a long break from this thread.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/1/2008 5:43:32 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Are we still waiting for an answer to the mercy seat question? Sorry, I took a long break from this thread.
I did too - was offline 9/19-9/28. Looks like while I was gone, he who dodged the mercy seat question has a new handle: Deleted User
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/1/2008 5:58:03 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
Joined: 4/12/2005
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I never did get an answer to the mercy seat question.
I was wanting to see which view of atonement EC theology embraces so that I could see if it is consistent with the passages in Leviticus 16:12-17 and Hebrews 9 (specifically, 9:11-18, and 9:24-28).
I often hear emergents make light of the sacrifice God demanded for atonement. The mercy seat is our picture, directly from God, of the atonement God required for sin, and Hebrews gives us the clear explanation that Christ has permanently put away sin with His sacrifice. This theory of atonement is NOT a new theory--it is old, old, old,  AND most importantly, Scriptural.
Leviticus 16:12-17
Then he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from the altar before the Lord, with his hands full of sweet incense beaten fine, and bring it inside the veil. And he shall put the incense on the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the Testimony, lest he die. He shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the mercy seat on the east side; and before the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times. Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel.
Hebrews 9:11-18
But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.
Hebrews 9:24-28
For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another-- He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/1/2008 8:32:53 PM
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DWinMadison
Posts: 16
Joined: 9/29/2008
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I thought this was a good primer on the Emerging Church. Hope it helps.
Wikipedia on ECM
Perhaps a better discussion than whether the ECM is good or bad is how to respond to it since it is here, and many sincere Christians are finding meaning and purpose in it. I would post two questions:
1) What do you think were there origins of the emerging church (i.e. why now?), and/or
2) What do you think is the "take away" message the ECM is sending to traditional church?
Let's not discuss good vs bad at this point...just why. ok?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/1/2008 8:47:02 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
Joined: 4/12/2005
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DW,
You might be interested in this earlier post by Mushhead.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
quote:
Is the emergent church really a church or a community club for "beleivers"?
It is more along the lines of a movement that seeks to redefine Christianity. The EC began when a Texas based ministry known as "The Leadership Network" hired Doug Pagitt to discover the reason for the apparent disconnect between the church and younger generations. The Leadership Network provides, among other things, leadership training for some of America's largest congregations. They noticed that the same churches brought the same people to this gathering each year, which raised the concern that the reason these congregations weren't developing young leaders was because they were disconnected in some way from youner generations. So, Doug Pagitt was hired.
Pagitt scoured the country and assembled a group of [mostly] younger ministers who were experiencing success reaching youth. The original gathering was pared down to a much smaller group - a committee (for lack of a better term). After the Leadership Network ended its funding, this smaller group changed its name to the TerraNova Project, and is now called the Board of Directors of Emergent Village.
Even though the name has changed, the Board of Directors of Emergent Village (BoDEV) is the founding organization of the EC. It's members are responsible for developing the theory that the problem between the church and younger generations is not generational (as was the situation in the past), but philosophical - younger generations are fully postmodern, but the church continues teaching a gospel message developed for the "Age of Modernity or Enlightenment." The members of the BoDEV are responsible for developing and promoting this theory and it's theological offspring; they define what the movement is and is not; they enter into publishing contracts for the movement; and they are the recongized leadership of the movement.
The point of telling you this is to establish that the EC is a movement because:
1- it is a specific philosophy - developed and promoted by a specific group of ministers who still lead and speak for the EC - about what true christianity teaches and practices.
2- Many "Christians" from across denominational lines are embracing this new version of Christinaity - including more than a few evangelicals.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/1/2008 8:52:20 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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Isn't much of the Emergent Chuch's doctrine just repackaged Liberation Theology?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/2/2008 3:29:48 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6963
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DWinMadison
I thought this was a good primer on the Emerging Church. Hope it helps.
Wikipedia on ECM
Perhaps a better discussion than whether the ECM is good or bad is how to respond to it since it is here, and many sincere Christians are finding meaning and purpose in it. I would post two questions:
1) What do you think were there origins of the emerging church (i.e. why now?), and/or
2) What do you think is the "take away" message the ECM is sending to traditional church?
Let's not discuss good vs bad at this point...just why. ok?
Hi DW and welcome to the boards!
1- I'm not sure of the origins of the ECM. I probably should've checked that out before wasting my time attending the churches.
2- The ECM does have some good, however it's kind of along the lines of a broken clock being right twice a day.
One thing that really bothers me about the ECM is the lack of teaching on repentance. I'm not looking for a hellfire and brimstone preacher. However, a preacher who doesn't teach repentance does his congregation a great disservice.
The "come as you are" attitude sounds great in theory. It might even draw unbelievers into the church. However, you still have to let Christ change you. When Christ changes you, you get "growing pains" and they don't feel so good all the time. The "come as you are" attitude tends to discourage anything that doesn't "feel good."
Not encouraging change in a believer's life is discouraging growth. I've been a Christian for 14 years. I'm very saddened by the amount of Christians I know who claim to have been saved for 25-30 years or more, yet their knowledge is lacking severly.
The cross didn't "feel good." The Creator of the universe loves us so much that He was willing to endure that pain.
Please don't misunderstand me. I am all for Christians uplifting and encouraging each other.
However, preaching that change (aka repentance) is not necessary, makes a mockery out of what Christ did for us on the cross.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/2/2008 11:16:59 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: DWinMadison
I thought this was a good primer on the Emerging Church. Hope it helps.
Wikipedia on ECM
Perhaps a better discussion than whether the ECM is good or bad is how to respond to it since it is here, and many sincere Christians are finding meaning and purpose in it. I would post two questions:
1) What do you think were there origins of the emerging church (i.e. why now?), and/or
2) What do you think is the "take away" message the ECM is sending to traditional church?
Let's not discuss good vs bad at this point...just why. ok?
Hi DW and welcome to the boards!
1- I'm not sure of the origins of the ECM. I probably should've checked that out before wasting my time attending the churches.
2- The ECM does have some good, however it's kind of along the lines of a broken clock being right twice a day.
One thing that really bothers me about the ECM is the lack of teaching on repentance. I'm not looking for a hellfire and brimstone preacher. However, a preacher who doesn't teach repentance does his congregation a great disservice.
The "come as you are" attitude sounds great in theory. It might even draw unbelievers into the church. However, you still have to let Christ change you. When Christ changes you, you get "growing pains" and they don't feel so good all the time. The "come as you are" attitude tends to discourage anything that doesn't "feel good."
Not encouraging change in a believer's life is discouraging growth. I've been a Christian for 14 years. I'm very saddened by the amount of Christians I know who claim to have been saved for 25-30 years or more, yet their knowledge is lacking severly.
The cross didn't "feel good." The Creator of the universe loves us so much that He was willing to endure that pain.
Please don't misunderstand me. I am all for Christians uplifting and encouraging each other.
However, preaching that change (aka repentance) is not necessary, makes a mockery out of what Christ did for us on the cross.
Say I heard a person just Sunday talking about; do everything without arguing and complaining, so that you might become blameless and be pure children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe.
Where my I ask that there is no talking about repentence. In a emergent gathering. When you are told to get off your seat and go help someone. To watch the words or by the way in which you treat someone. I just don't get it with people talking about repentence. And not understanding what the whole picture involes in doing it.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/2/2008 12:26:15 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3144
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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^^ Repentance and good works are two entirely different things. Some of the most sinful people in the world (think Hollywood) do good works.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/3/2008 12:18:48 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
^^ Repentance and good works are two entirely different things. Some of the most sinful people in the world (think Hollywood) do good works.
Repent(verb) to wish one had not done something; to feel remorse or regret(for); to regret and change from evil ways.~repentant (adj)
So repent and not do good. Hum... seems strange to me that someone would talk about repenting and not do good. Unless they were repenting from doing good and now want to do evil.
Tell me what Isaiah wrote in the first chapter then in the 58 he went and told them the same story (message) over again. Which may I add was to repent and start doing good.
I also thought they (repenting& good) went hand in hand. But because someone does good in Hollywood then I guess we (christians) need to be evil. Right?
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/3/2008 12:26:53 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
seems strange to me that someone would talk about repenting and not do good.
Quote? Who said this?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/3/2008 12:29:05 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Biblically, Repent means to agree with God's way and do a 180 degree turn from your way to His. It is far more than just regret.
That is always followed by doing good - His way and for His purposes, not for publicity, tax write-offs, or personal glory.
quote:
But because someone does good in Hollywood then I guess we (christians) need to be evil. Right?
You are not responding appropriately. The obvious meaning was that good works alone is meaningless without repentance first and proper attitude.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 10/3/2008 2:16:00 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Again you are trying to make a mountian out of a mole hill. Just because I said good works you come back and say hollywood does it. Is it not sad that hollywood would get the spot light instead of our Saviour? Makes sense to me does it you? We would want that to be that way. Or some other religion appearing it has the answers to life difficulties. And we sit idlely by to make sure we are lookig like we could care, but really don't down inside.
You missed the entire point - and I'm not the one who made it. Plus, you are arguing much of what I said to you.
I was simply trying to help you out - and nicely, I thought - but it seems you only want to fuss. It's no wonder nobody wants the "emergent" snake oil.
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