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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/27/2008 6:52:10 AM
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facedown
Posts: 907
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collifan
let's run through a little history here:
quote:
(44) collifan: This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.
quote:
facedown ah, the good ol' athanasian creed...i could have figured you'd change directions.
another interesting document. used to be most prayer books between 1549-1662 had it in for several occasions a year. and it was until the 19th century, and it began to decline. i'd actually be curious to know just how many prayer books it's printed in today. i really don't know what your point is, as again, i've never argued for universalism. even further, if you believe the creed 100% there's a lot of folks in this forum who will spend eternity in hell based off of that creed. folks who would label themselves christian/evangelical/fundamental/etc. is that what your suggesting? - that they are burning in hell, or that maybe something else is going on?
you see - the point wasn't an issue that "facedown" had, but that for you to use the athanasian creed as a weapon, as written, many evangelicals are thus going to burn in hell. let's progress a little further.
so, what's the deal?
stephanos
i'm well aware of what "catholic" and what "Catholic" means. thanks though.
colliefan
maybe more of an important question is what are you insinuating by your comment?
that if one says out loud "jesus" that magically because they have spoken the name, that they are saved?
what am i insinuating, in short, that god is omnipresent or in every place at every time - wholly unbounded and universally present. maybe a hint of mysterium tremendum and a dash of otherness.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/27/2008 12:35:32 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
you see - the point wasn't an issue that "facedown" had, but that for you to use the athanasian creed as a weapon, as written, many evangelicals are thus going to burn in hell. let's progress a little further
You haven't addressed my question! Which phrase is objectionable?
quote:
that if one says out loud "jesus" that magically because they have spoken the name, that they are saved?
It is trusting in what Christ accomplished on the Cross and then living that trust in an active faith.
iJames 2:18 - 19 (HCSB) 18But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.”£ Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works.£ £ 19You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe—and they shudder.£
Acts 2:21 (HCSB) 21 then whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.£
1 Tim 1:15 - 17 (HCSB) 15This saying is trustworthy£ and deserving of full acceptance: “Christ Jesus came into the world£ to save sinners”£—and I am the worst of them.£ 16But I received mercy£ because of this, so that in me, the worst ëof themû, Christ Jesus might demonstrate the utmost patience£ as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life.£ 17Now to the King£ eternal,£ immortal,£ invisible, the only£ God,£ be honor£ and glory£ forever and ever. £Amen.£
2 Tim 2:11 (HCSB) 11This saying is trustworthy:£ For if we have died with Him we will also live with Him;
quote:
Matt 7:15 - 23 (HCSB) 15“Beware of false prophets£ who come to you in sheep’s£ clothing£ but inwardly are ravaging wolves.£ 16You’ll recognize them by their fruit.
£ Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?£ 17In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.£
20So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.£ 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,£ but ëonlyû the one who does the will£ of My Father in heaven.£ 22On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons£ in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?£’ 23Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’£ £
There are many who "confess" the faith but do it in a works based righteousness. There are many who "confess" Christ but believe there are other ways to heaven. There are many who deny the authority, inspiration, and innerancy of God's word. The pulpits and pews are full of these individuals.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/27/2008 1:31:54 PM
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facedown
Posts: 907
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colliefan
quote:
You haven't addressed my question! Which phrase is objectionable?
and you've failed to understand that it's my that may or may not have objections. the point was and is - is this: if you demand a literal interpretation of the creed in question - then *any* objections to *any* phrase in the creed in question results in "eternal damnation".
for example:
- the Orthodox may be "damned" because of potential objections regarding the Holy Spirit.
- Others may have issue with the 30th line in that it seems to suggest that salvation is united with "right faith" and "belief" - i can think of folks from a calvinistic view having an issue in addition to folks who may object that this poses a rather modenistic view of what "faith" is all about in the first place.
- of course some will object to the "descended into hell" comment
- others will be damned because they really don't buy into the resurrection, well, they do, but the creed demands that is the very next thing for us after we die - whereas many folks would object because they envision a "soul straight to god's presence" sort of thing.
- others are damned becuase of the 42 phrase and the "own works" ordeal
same with the 43rd line and the "done good" and "done evil"
- lastly countless are damned because they object to creeds in the first place.
so don't try to use the creed as a weapon when it's convenient, if you don't mind.
and of course some issue may be raised in affirming that your argument after that demanding that our salvation is in the end a matter of linguistics cannot sustain itself without suggesting that god changes in how god relates to creation.
yes, there are many who confess - and that should make us all shudder - not point at one another saying "thank god i'm not like them!"
kyrie eleison
christe eleison
kyrie eleison
_____________________________
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/27/2008 2:44:11 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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quote:
the Orthodox may be "damned" because of potential objections regarding the Holy Spirit.
- Others may have issue with the 30th line in that it seems to suggest that salvation is united with "right faith" and "belief" - i can think of folks from a calvinistic view having an issue in addition to folks who may object that this poses a rather modenistic view of what "faith" is all about in the first place.
Explain, precisely the objections an Orthodox would have about the HS
The right view about the faith is summed in the creed. And this is in no way a Calvinist/Arminian arguement. I guess it would be modernistic if one is coming from the view of a member of a EC-USA/PC-USA/UCC member.-
quote:
others will be damned because they really don't buy into the resurrection, well
Yes, they are dammed b/c they have denied the faith
quote:
and of course some issue may be raised in affirming that your argument after that demanding that our salvation is in the end a matter of linguistics cannot sustain itself without suggesting that god changes in how god relates to creation.
It is not a matter of lunguistics. Aparently you, like the EC-USA church deny the authority of the Bible and instead trust in your own tradition and reason!
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/27/2008 3:09:53 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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quote:
without suggesting that god changes in how god relates to creation.
God has never changed how he relates to creation
Heb 7:21 - 22 (HCSB) 21but He with an oath made by the One who said to Him: The Lord has sworn, and He will not change His mind, You are a priest forever.£ 22So Jesus has also become the guarantee of a better covenant.£
Lam 5:17 - 22 (KJV) 17For this our heart is faint; for these things our eyes are dim. 18Because of the mountain of Zion, which is desolate, the foxes walk upon it. 19Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; thy throne from generation to generation. 20Wherefore dost thou forget us for ever, and forsake us so long time? 21Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old. 22But thou hast utterly rejected us; thou art very wroth against us.
Mal 3:6 (HCSB) 6“Because I, £Yahweh, have not changed,£ you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.£
Mal 3:6 (ESV) 6“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 8/27/2008 6:45:56 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
the orthodox church has no "objections to the holy spirit" - but the phrasing of the creed. they don't recognize the creed at all, as far as i know.
if the "right view about the faith" is in the creed, and the creed is authorative, then the orthodox are damned, as well as numerous other folks already mentioned.
and i clarified the 'resurrection' more than enough - or are you suggesting that folks who believe that when one dies, one is in 'heaven' or in 'god's presence' are indeed damned "b/c they have deined the faith"?
no, it's (salvation) not a matter of linguistics. i'm glad you can affirm as much. and no, "god has never changed how he relates to creation". so glad we agree here!
_____________________________
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 1:00:17 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 1:09:33 PM
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jazzact13
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Thanks for the empireremix link, emergning. If that wingnut speaks for you, then it's clear you and I have nothing in common.
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there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 1:21:38 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 1:24:19 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 515
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From: Kearns
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quote:
quote:
quote:
I am sorry you believe Christians should not police officers, teachers, judges, doctors (health care can be violent) - we should leave those professions and responsibilities for those that are not born-again, that do not fear and love the Lord.
I never said I do not believe...
What I said was that for the first 300 years of the church that was what everyone believed - and they took it seriously.
We don't live in a black and white world, earthless.
emerging,
The discussion might have moved on from the issue of pacifism, but your contention that for the first three hundred years all Christians believed they should not be soldiers cannot go uncontested. Yes, some in the early church did take the position you espouse, but that position was far from universal. The views of early Christians concerning serving in the military and participating in other powerful government positions ran the gamut from non-participation to establishing rules of conduct for serving in those positions. IOW's, your statement that "all" Christians shared the same beliefs on the issue is not true.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 1:24:22 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1073
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Jazzact what wing nut are you talking about? 
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 1:53:42 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 515
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From: Kearns
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Emerging,
your belief that Jesus came to oppose domination systems reveals a fundamental flaw in the emergent understanding of the cross. Jesus' crucifixion was not the ultimate act of non-violent resistance against domination systems. Jesus was crucified to pay the penalty for the sins of the world. On the cross Jesus willingly endured the wrath of the Father. On the cross He suffered our punishment for our sins.
Any attempt to redefine the meaning of the Cross will ultimately lead to other doctrinal errors. If the cross isn't about paying the penalty for sins, then what is it about? How are words like redemption and saved reconciled with the reinvented purpose of Jesus' crucifixion. Emergents, with the help of extreme liberal theologians, attempt to answer these questions, but their answers require reinterpreting much of Jesus' teachings and actions. We can see this error in virtually every one your posts, emerging.
The sad truth is that this reinterpretation of the cross is a classic example of forcing the text to fit one's preconceived beliefs rather than allowing the Scriptures to inform those beliefs. It is a classic example of unbelief (I'm not judging here, as emergents openly say they don't believe). Another sad truth is that emergents are not particularly honest in their portrayals of history, evangelicalism, philosophy, or the Word of God. These portrayals sound scholarly and make sense to many people, but they are factually inaccurate, and anyone that falls for it is the victim of false teaching.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 9/10/2008 2:12:09 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 2:05:28 PM
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crankius
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quote:
...but their answers require reinterpreting much of Jesus' teachings and actions.
Exactly.
Good post, Mushhead.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 2:22:06 PM
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jazzact13
Posts: 485
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quote:
It appears you have forgotten it.
Nope. If anything, that tagline is against you and the emergent attempts to use the poor as a political tool.
quote:
are you the same jazz that posts at .info?
You mean crn.info? It would be better to say "posted" there, but I got well and sick of the place a bit ago.
_____________________________
there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 2:27:49 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 2:36:15 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 2:38:56 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 2:43:27 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 2:53:05 PM
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crankius
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quote:
oppose domination systems?
This is why He died on the cross? You can't seriously be saying this.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 2:58:03 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 3:06:29 PM
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crankius
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Do you really think that is why He died on the cross?
The answer is, no, I don't think that is His major concern, and Scripture doesn't make it out to be His major concern. There will always be people who dominate. It's called sin.
The Jews also had this same false understanding--they thought Jesus was supposed to liberate them from the current political oppressive forces. Didn't happen.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 3:11:46 PM
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 3:16:33 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 515
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
As I said earlier, committment to nonviolence is not about rolling over and playing dead and allowing evil to run amok. In the face of the evil you describe I would obviously step in and attempt to intervene, even if that meant sacrificing my own life. I would do all in my power to avoid killing him (in this way we leave space for an evil person to one day repent of their wrongdoing).
There are no cookie-cutter answers, earthless. Did you or anyone read my post about walking the extra mile? Jesus calls us to be creative in our subversity of the powers of domination (and evil) in our world. With the aid of the Holy Spirit leading us into truth and as a church that gathers to pray for one another (INCLUDING our enemies!) we have a hope that we can be leaven in this world of violence - showing to a broken world the wounds of Jesus that lead to resurrection.
Emerging,
I don't understand how you reconcile your position in this post with your pacifistic views. On the one hand violence is never the will of God - on the other hand you say that sometimes violence is warranted. On the one hand, Jesus teaches non-violent resistance - on the other you are not committed to non-violent resistance in every situation.
It seems to me that the real question you must answer is when, where, how, and why violence is justified.
quote:
Let me say it again: committment to nonviolence, a committment that Jesus himself inaugrates, is not to roll over and play doormat.
I'm curious, in practical terms how does one avoid being a doormat and also avoid using violence to resist evil? What standard do you use to determine when it is appropriate for an individual to use violence to resist evil?
quote:
And as Ghandi and MLK and Jesus have shown, you can work against evil and bring wonderful change without resorting to violence.
Yes, sometimes non-violent resistance can work, but only in the right socio-political circumstances. If MLK or Gandhi had attempted their methods in a different time they most likely would have been slaughtered.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Emerging/Emergent Church Movement. - 9/10/2008 3:18:08 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 515
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
quote:
quote:
quote:
I am sorry you believe Christians should not police officers, teachers, judges, doctors (health care can be violent) - we should leave those professions and responsibilities for those that are not born-again, that do not fear and love the Lord.
I never said I do not believe...
What I said was that for the first 300 years of the church that was what everyone believed - and they took it seriously.
We don't live in a black and white world, earthless.
emerging,
The discussion might have moved on from the issue of pacifism, but your contention that for the first three hundred years all Christians believed they should not be soldiers cannot go uncontested. Yes, some in the early church did take the position you espouse, but that position was far from universal. The views of early Christians concerning serving in the military and participating in other powerful government positions ran the gamut from non-participation to establishing rules of conduct for serving in those positions. IOW's, your statement that "all" Christians shared the same beliefs on the issue is not true.
Mush,
Who are some early Christian writers before Augustine that advocated government service, particularly military service?
You don't know! If you really need me to post that info, I will.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 3:19:27 PM
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