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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 4:55:19 PM
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tdd1975
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quote:
Ezra -So unless you can prove from Scripture that regeneration precedes faith, you should believe what I have pointed out.
(Acts 16:14) One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
Ephesians, I pray that God opens the heart of your family to the gospel just as He did Lydia.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 8:32:49 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3142
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quote:
Put it this way: If God told you today that you would live for 15 more years, would you believe Him? Would I kill myself to prove you wrong? Or would you just conveniently say that God knew my actions all along? Ridiculous circular reasoning!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 8:43:07 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1262
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
There are many on this forum who believe in Limited Atonement, meaning that Christ died only for those whom God selected to be saved from the beginning.
Heavendweller
Limited Atonement? I've not heard that teaching before in all the 33 years I've been a christian. You mean there are actually christians who believe that Jesus died for only a few people and not for all humanity? And they believe that Jesus didn't take the sins of all the world upon himself at the cross but he only took the sins of a chosen few while the rest of humanity had to continue carrying their sins?
Wow, that is strange theology.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 8:46:19 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1262
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
1 Timothy 2
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
... Is God trying to save this person?
Eph 4_32
When a Christian reads the above passage, the first thing to be done is to believe it. It is a plain statement of God's perfect will and desire. And it includes two vital components:
1. That ALL men be saved
2. That ALL men come unto the knowledge of the truth
Such a verse is an over-arching declaration of the grace of God, and not to be trifled with by various cavils such as "all" really means "some" and "men" really excludes women and children. This is all too common among Christians who profess to believe the Word of God but deny fundamental Gospel truths.
Therefore the question in the heading of this OP is false. The question should really be "Is it God's perfect will to save all sinners?" God is not man that He should "try" and "fail". God is the Lord God Almighty who reveals to us through His Word that He has a perfect will and He also has a permissive will.
God's perfect will is that all human beings be saved. Why? Because the Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD, and God was in Christ RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF. Why? Because God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God's permissive will allows men to make choices -- good or bad -- and reap the results of those choices. At the same time, God has made full provision that (1) the Gospel should to preached to every creature, (3) the Holy Spirit should convict and convince sinners who hear the Gospel, (4) that faith be generated in human hearts through the Word of God, (4) that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit draw all sinners to the Savior. This is all God's work.
Nevertheless, every person must make a choice and a decision. To believe the Gospel, repent, receive Christ as Lord and Savior, and be saved. Or to disbelieve and be damned (Mark 16:15,16). God will compel none to be saved, yet He has made full provision for all to be saved. Believe it.
To teach, as some foolishly do, that God chooses some for Heaven and the majority for Hell is to impugn the character of God and to denigrate the infinite value of the finished work of Christ. That so many Christians have fallen for this lie of Satan reveals just how easy it is to be led astray if we do not hold fast to the words of truth.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Yet, Scripture says that He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. Those who would seek to undermine the Gospel would claim loudly that God's "will" to save sinners was really a sham, and that Christ intended all along that Israel would not believe on Him and therefore be damned. This is simply a lie from Satan.
Christ wept tears over Jerusalem, His beloved city and His beloved people. Why? Did He not have the power to compel every Israelite to believe on Him, repent, and be saved? Yes, He did. But salvation is not a contest of wills. Therefore He allowed by His permissive will to let the majority of Israel reject Him, even though His perfect will was expressed by Paul who said (Rom. 9:2-4) "I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. for I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen after the flesh, who are Israelites..."
This statement would never have been made if God indeed compels men to be saved. But because Israel (like all other human beings) was free to make choices, Israel did not believe God and Christ (by and large). The blame lies not with God but with Israel and all those who refuse to believe the Gospel.
Eph 4_32, since you have already been indoctrinated to disbelieve all that I have stated, you will probably simply dimiss this and continue to believe what you believe. Therefore you will never receive your answers. False questions always lead to false answers.
Amen! Amen! Excellent post, sound doctrine and good truth.
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MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 9:10:04 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
What reason do you Arminians give that all my siblings and my parents had equal opportunity to believe as I did? It certainly isn't apparent to me. I'm willing to be convinced of that if someone would actually explain it in a way that makes some sense. God gave me conviction. I didn't give it to myself.
For the same reason that a parent can have several children whom they treat exactly the same way, raise with the exact same rules, love equally, and one of them goes the wrong way and makes terribly self-destructive choices for their life and the others do not but go on to college and have happy marriages.
The inner workings of people's hearts and psychies are profound and we cannot say why some choose something good while others choose the bad. While God treats all with the same rules and extends the same love to all, there are those who will not choose the right and those who will.
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MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 9:16:50 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1778
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quote:
Amen! Amen! Excellent post, sound doctrine and good truth.
Thanks, Brother. And I thank the Lord that He has revealed His truth to many.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/20/2008 9:19:56 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3142
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
Wow, that is strange theology. Actually, it's a very logical feature of 5-point Calvinism in order to preserve God's Sovereignty at all costs in this man-made systematic doctrine. Since not all people are saved, it must follow that the Atonement is limited only to the elect who must be unconditionally justified by irresistible grace so they may be saved forever regardless of their future behavior. Wow, that is strange theology!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 1:42:39 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
There are many on this forum who believe in Limited Atonement, meaning that Christ died only for those whom God selected to be saved from the beginning.
Heavendweller
Limited Atonement? I've not heard that teaching before in all the 33 years I've been a christian. You mean there are actually christians who believe that Jesus died for only a few people and not for all humanity? And they believe that Jesus didn't take the sins of all the world upon himself at the cross but he only took the sins of a chosen few while the rest of humanity had to continue carrying their sins?
Wow, that is strange theology.
If Christ took all the sin what are people judged on?
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 1:43:40 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Put it this way: If God told you today that you would live for 15 more years, would you believe Him? Would I kill myself to prove you wrong? Or would you just conveniently say that God knew my actions all along? Ridiculous circular reasoning!
God numbers a man's days...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 1:50:50 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
For the same reason that a parent can have several children whom they treat exactly the same way, raise with the exact same rules, love equally, and one of them goes the wrong way and makes terribly self-destructive choices for their life and the others do not but go on to college and have happy marriages.
How does the above equate to God's will and salvation? Your anology is painfully lacking...
quote:
The inner workings of people's hearts and psychies are profound and we cannot say why some choose something good while others choose the bad.
The Word of God is quite clear those in the flesh(man condition prior to salvation) cannot please Him.... That leaves only those in the Spirit. That leaves only leaves God changing folks in order for them to believe...
quote:
While God treats all with the same rules and extends the same love to all, there are those who will not choose the right and those who will.
Given your statement you must believe babies go to hell, correct? Or is there where you amend your statement?
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 5/21/2008 1:01:42 PM >
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 11:41:01 AM
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justajerk
Posts: 129
Joined: 4/30/2008
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quote:
Would I kill myself to prove you wrong? Or would you just conveniently say that God knew my actions all along? Ridiculous circular reasoning! My question was in regards to trusting His promise. Which I feel you would. But knowing this, would you say I don't have to eat any more? I doubt it, if your like me you enjoy good food and know that it gives you strength. And yet it also accomplishes the sustaining of this body.
I wasn't trying to set you up. I apologize for such a ridiculous proposal.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 12:00:22 PM
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justajerk
Posts: 129
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quote:
Limited Atonement? I've not heard that teaching before in all the 33 years I've been a christian. You mean there are actually christians who believe that Jesus died for only a few people and not for all humanity? Yeah this guy was one of those nuts....
John10:26 “but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” - Jesus
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 1:44:54 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1123
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
If Christ took all the sin what are people judged on?
John
We are judged on works, not sins.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 3:09:18 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
If Christ took all the sin what are people judged on?
John
We are judged on works, not sins.
Who is we?
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 3:20:33 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3142
Joined: 7/10/2006
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Arminians, John. How can Calvinists be judged on anything - their every breath is predestined, remember?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 3:22:00 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2383
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
What reason do you Arminians give that all my siblings and my parents had equal opportunity to believe as I did? It certainly isn't apparent to me.
Cool shoes, Ephie!! well thanks.  I just gave myself promise not to buy any more shoes anymore. Just last week i sucessfully fought my nature! Now I think i need a leopard ones..
i think the Bible call this situation " can a leopard change his spots....":)))
I am interested in your or anyone's reply to Drmark comment:
quote:
Grace is always "equal opportunity", but what one does with that grace is uniquely individual.
I agree with him, honestly yet to see that disproved that God doesnt give people equal chance.
Maybe i been brewing too much in liveral academia environment :)), but i dont see it!
PS i think we gotta move to Calvinism thread though before warned ;)
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 3:26:49 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Arminians, John. How can Calvinists be judged on anything - their every breath is predestined, remember?
Are you folks claiming that man isn't judged to hell for his or her sin?
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 3:30:02 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3142
Joined: 7/10/2006
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Are you claiming that God judges people for something they have no control over, is predestined by divine decree, and cannot therefore be accountable for? Interesting God you serve, John.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 3:48:29 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Are you claiming that God judges people for something they have no control over, is predestined by divine decree, and cannot therefore be accountable for? Interesting God you serve, John.
Yes, the God that moved enemies of Israel against His own people to punish them and later punished the enemies of Israel for doing so... Interesting to say the least...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 3:49:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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For the record, not believing is a sin...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 3:54:44 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3142
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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For the record, sin is the reason for not believing. God can fix that when people let Him!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 4:09:44 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
For the record, sin is the reason for not believing.
The act of not believing is a sin, since we are commanded to do so... Christ took all the sin, yet people are judged to hell... Very interesting...
quote:
God can fix that when people let Him!
Poor God... His word says "Who can stay His hand" as if nobody can yet it's seem some people can... Those must be some powerful folks...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 4:21:23 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3142
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
Poor God... Wrong again, John. God is actually quite rich because He knows His children love Him willfully and voluntarily instead of having "predestined grace" rammed down their throats whenever it suits His fancy.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 4:24:44 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Poor God... Wrong again, John. God is actually quite rich because He knows His children love Him willfully and voluntarily instead of having "predestined grace" rammed down their throats whenever it suits His fancy.
No they don't... They only love Him with the heart He gave them... Without Him you can doing nothing...
John
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/21/2008 4:26:33 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Poor God... Wrong again, John. God is actually quite rich because He knows His children love Him willfully and voluntarily instead of having "predestined grace" rammed down their throats whenever it suits His fancy.
Btw... Pharaoh was moved by the will of God when it suited His fancy...
John
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