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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 12:11:47 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 552
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
2 Corinthians 5:15 has nothing to do with your assertion. You said He chooses all, scripture says differently. I side with scripture.
I do not wish to argue with you Jimbo, but it is with Scripture that you disagree. Christ died for all and He died "once and for all". If He died for all, then obviously all have the opportunity to accept His death, burial, and resurrection.
"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.." 1 Timothy 2:3-5
There are many on this forum who believe in Limited Atonement, meaning that Christ died only for those whom God selected to be saved from the beginning.
Heavendweller
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 1:28:08 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1980
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
1 Timothy 2
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
... Is God trying to save this person?
Eph 4_32
When a Christian reads the above passage, the first thing to be done is to believe it. It is a plain statement of God's perfect will and desire. And it includes two vital components:
1. That ALL men be saved
2. That ALL men come unto the knowledge of the truth
Such a verse is an over-arching declaration of the grace of God, and not to be trifled with by various cavils such as "all" really means "some" and "men" really excludes women and children. This is all too common among Christians who profess to believe the Word of God but deny fundamental Gospel truths.
Therefore the question in the heading of this OP is false. The question should really be "Is it God's perfect will to save all sinners?" God is not man that He should "try" and "fail". God is the Lord God Almighty who reveals to us through His Word that He has a perfect will and He also has a permissive will.
God's perfect will is that all human beings be saved. Why? Because the Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD, and God was in Christ RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF. Why? Because God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God's permissive will allows men to make choices -- good or bad -- and reap the results of those choices. At the same time, God has made full provision that (1) the Gospel should to preached to every creature, (3) the Holy Spirit should convict and convince sinners who hear the Gospel, (4) that faith be generated in human hearts through the Word of God, (4) that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit draw all sinners to the Savior. This is all God's work.
Nevertheless, every person must make a choice and a decision. To believe the Gospel, repent, receive Christ as Lord and Savior, and be saved. Or to disbelieve and be damned (Mark 16:15,16). God will compel none to be saved, yet He has made full provision for all to be saved. Believe it.
To teach, as some foolishly do, that God chooses some for Heaven and the majority for Hell is to impugn the character of God and to denigrate the infinite value of the finished work of Christ. That so many Christians have fallen for this lie of Satan reveals just how easy it is to be led astray if we do not hold fast to the words of truth.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Yet, Scripture says that He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. Those who would seek to undermine the Gospel would claim loudly that God's "will" to save sinners was really a sham, and that Christ intended all along that Israel would not believe on Him and therefore be damned. This is simply a lie from Satan.
Christ wept tears over Jerusalem, His beloved city and His beloved people. Why? Did He not have the power to compel every Israelite to believe on Him, repent, and be saved? Yes, He did. But salvation is not a contest of wills. Therefore He allowed by His permissive will to let the majority of Israel reject Him, even though His perfect will was expressed by Paul who said (Rom. 9:2-4) "I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. for I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen after the flesh, who are Israelites..."
This statement would never have been made if God indeed compels men to be saved. But because Israel (like all other human beings) was free to make choices, Israel did not believe God and Christ (by and large). The blame lies not with God but with Israel and all those who refuse to believe the Gospel.
Eph 4_32, since you have already been indoctrinated to disbelieve all that I have stated, you will probably simply dimiss this and continue to believe what you believe. Therefore you will never receive your answers. False questions always lead to false answers.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 1:33:43 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1980
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quote:
But I don't understand how one person makes the right choice and another doesn't.
There's nothing to "understand".
Some believe God and believe the Gospel while others do not believe God and do not believe the Gospel. The latter love darkness more than light (Jn. 3:18-21). Read and meditate on this passage in John's Gospel and the "mystery" is solved.
If you love ice cream more than chocolate, you will gravitate to the former and disdain the latter. If you love darkness more than light, you will do likewise.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 1:45:07 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1980
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quote:
All I want to do is understand this Prevenient Grace doctrine.
Prevenient grace simply means that "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL MEN" (Titus 2:11). In other words, since no sinner and no human being is excluded from God's grace (unless they choose to exclude themselves) this grace "appears" to all men through the preaching of the Gospel and the preaching of the Lord Jesus Christ.
"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom. 10:17), therefore all who hear the Gospel may also believe when the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces.
Why then will they not believe? Because they love darkness more than light. And they harden their hearts: "And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the Kingdom of God. BUT WHEN DIVERS WERE HARDENED, AND BELIEVED NOT, BUT SPAKE EVIL OF THE WAY before the multitude, he [Paul] departed from them..." (Acts 19:8,9).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 1:47:38 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1980
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quote:
How does one believe?
By taking God at His Word. Let God be true, though every man a liar.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 1:56:23 AM
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meerkat
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Ezra,
Your view on this presupposes that everyone has had a chance to hear the gospel and that they do have a chance to believe it once they have exposure to the gospel.
2 Cor 4:4 says that the god of this world has blinded the minds of those that don't believe lest the light shine unto them.
In this age comprising 6000 years not many have been exposed to the gospel.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 2:16:02 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 552
Joined: 12/22/2007
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Ezra,
Thank you for taking the time to post what you have thus far. You said it much better than I ever could have!
Heavendweller
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 2:33:25 AM
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apologist1948
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I have been following this (and one other) thread and whilst everyone is at each other's throats (Well, almost every one).
My question is important and I hope I convey it in a manner that makes some sense. The questions is, "Does it matter, really matter, just how one comes to faith? Is a Calvinist Born-Again Christian more saved or more properly saved than one who is an Arminianist Christian? Should not the goal of all Christians be to be with the Lord in the next life?
I have seen much vitrol tossed both ways in this debate and I can quite honestly say that I don't believe that the Lord would be pleased with many of the messages tossed back and forth with Biblical poison on the tips of many a barb with the intention of not carrying on a dialogue but trying to insult the other persons intelligence, character and lack of Biblical studies. This is shameful, You all need to repent and ask for forgivness. Not for your message, but for the delivery.
I'll say no more and pray for all of you (and myself) that in all that we say - God will be edified.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 7:19:26 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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Ephesians 4_32:
My family is practically the opposite of yours except for my youngest sister. She wants nothing whatever to do with Christianity. How long do I keep telling her she needs to turn to Christ? Until either she or I pass from this world. I would never stop telling her. Now, admittedly, most of my telling her at this point is simply living the Christian life in front of her because she has come to the point where she no longer desires to even talk about the things of God. There is nothing I would like more than to see her and her family come to Christ. However, I don't blame the fact that she doesn't on God. It's not His fault that she is refusing to hear anything about Him. That's her choice and ultimately, unless she comes to Him, she's gonna hafta pay for that choice. Is God trying to save her? I think He certainly wants her to be saved, but as long as she rejects Him, I don't think He'll do it. But again, as much as I love my sister, that's on her, not on God.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 9:31:42 AM
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FREELUTH
Posts: 174
Joined: 1/31/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_3
People who are dead spiritually can't accept Christ.
If that were true...
It is true!
1 Corinthians 2
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Romans 3
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
So, the spiritually dead have no hope I guess. Oh well, so much for God being all powerful.
It would appear you do already have your answers.
Peace
Spiritually dead people have no hope. Unless they are changed by the Holy Spirit working through God's word. Then they have faith and hope in Jesus the Savior !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
_____________________________
My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 10:37:17 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2276
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
All I want to do is understand this Prevenient Grace doctrine.
Prevenient grace simply means that "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL MEN" (Titus 2:11). In other words, since no sinner and no human being is excluded from God's grace (unless they choose to exclude themselves) this grace "appears" to all men through the preaching of the Gospel and the preaching of the Lord Jesus Christ.
So an Arminian refers to it as Prevenient Grace and a Calvinist refers to it as Common Grace. Is that correct?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom. 10:17), therefore all who hear the Gospel may also believe when the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces.
So all evangelical Christians agree that faith is a work of the Holy Spirit. Is that correct? My family doesn't have this conviction. The word of God is not heard by them because they are deaf to things of the Spirit. Is that not agreed upon by all evangelical Christians?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Why then will they not believe? Because they love darkness more than light. And they harden their hearts: "And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the Kingdom of God. BUT WHEN DIVERS WERE HARDENED, AND BELIEVED NOT, BUT SPAKE EVIL OF THE WAY before the multitude, he [Paul] departed from them..." (Acts 19:8,9).
I know that all men are sinners under the power of Satan until they know Christ. So what causes one person to know Him and another to not know Him? What have I done to know Him? Was I intrinsically different from the rest of my family?
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 10:46:04 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2276
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Ephesians 4_32:
My family is practically the opposite of yours except for my youngest sister. She wants nothing whatever to do with Christianity. How long do I keep telling her she needs to turn to Christ? Until either she or I pass from this world. I would never stop telling her. Now, admittedly, most of my telling her at this point is simply living the Christian life in front of her because she has come to the point where she no longer desires to even talk about the things of God. There is nothing I would like more than to see her and her family come to Christ. However, I don't blame the fact that she doesn't on God. It's not His fault that she is refusing to hear anything about Him. That's her choice and ultimately, unless she comes to Him, she's gonna hafta pay for that choice. Is God trying to save her? I think He certainly wants her to be saved, but as long as she rejects Him, I don't think He'll do it. But again, as much as I love my sister, that's on her, not on God.
Thank you for responding. That's the perspective I'm trying to unravel. What does 2 Timothy 2:25 mean?
2 Timothy 2
25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 11:01:58 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2276
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From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FREELUTH
Spiritually dead people have no hope. Unless they are changed by the Holy Spirit working through God's word. Then they have faith and hope in Jesus the Savior !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mormons have suggested to me that God puts a ladder down into the pit, but man has to climb the ladder to get out.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 12:14:08 PM
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Heavendweller
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Dear Ephesians,
It seems from all you have said thus far, that your heart is still not comforted. You are seeking an answer that perhaps only the Holy Spirit in His wisdom can give you.
Now I would like to be a bit personal here with you. I can empathize with the sadness you are feeling. My son is very much opposed to the things of God. Actually he has de-converted and become a hardcore atheist with a nihilist worldview.
My husband and I raised him in the Christian faith. When he was 10 yrs. old, he approached us and said "I want to be saved." We were staunch evangelical Christians at that time and our hearts rejoiced in hearing those words. I remember that night as if it were yesterday. We went into the living room and our son asked the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus Christ, to save him. He repented of his sins and asked for the gift of the Holy Spirit. Afterward, we all held each other and wept. We sang "Amazing Grace" and rejoiced for what it seemed were hours.
Our son became what some might call an "on fire" Christian. He began listening to Christian music. He loved reading the Bible and praying. We would read Christian books together and such joy filled our hearts. When he turned 14, he was baptized. Again, this was another event in which we cried and rejoiced with our son.
His knowledge, love and understanding of the Scriptures grew. He would go witnessing with my husband and I and speak to others about Jesus Christ. What joy for my husband and I to see such a wonderful change and growth in our son.
Around the time he entered high school, he went through a period of deep depression. I understood his plight well since I lived with the same struggle. The depression worsened and it seemed to overshadow his faith. When he turned 18, he went into the service. His faith was tested there on many occasions, and he gave up fighting the good fight of the faith. He was able to get a general discharge a year and a half later.
Soon after he left the service, his Christian faith seemed to take flight. He loved attending church, and became involved in the young adults Sunday school. He started bring all his friends whom he knew from high school. He grew very close to the pastor and would visit him regularly.
Soon he met a girl who was an unbeliever. He made it his goal to bring her to Christ. His life and witness had such an effect on this young lady and she came to faith in Christ. Shortly thereafter, they were married.
Fast forward. Three years ago our son came to visit us on a Sunday morning before church. He broke down and confided in us that a few months prior he had completely gave up on his Christian faith. He used the word "deconverted." He told us he no longer believed in the Christian God or any god. He could no longer live with the intense highs and lows of being a Christian. We engaged then and have since in deep theological discussions with our son, but all for naught thus far. Or so it seems. I cannot know what goes on in the depths of his heart.
I have cried tears over our son and have been in such deep anguish over his spiritual condition at times that I feel frozen and unable to speak. A hardening has taken place within him that has manifested itself in some very ugly ways. It is obvious to all of those who know him that he is more stiff-necked than ever in his opposition toward God.
Recently while cleaning, I came across something that he had written while still professing faith in Christ. The beauty of what he said, the love of Christ that was evident in what he had written stuck deep within my heart. Who I wondered, is this son that we now know? There seems to be no resemblance to the young man who wrote these words of love and compassion toward God, and the young man that now boldly rejoices in rejecting Christ. How could this person who has deconverted ever written such God glorifying ideas?
All I can tell you at this point is that I pray for his soul. I do not know the outcome. However, I do not and cannot blame God for his spiritual condition. This experience has served to make me ever mindful of paying heed to all the admonitions of Scripture to the believer in Christ.
May the Lord Jesus bring comfort to your heart this day and always.
Heavendweller
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 1:04:52 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1980
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quote:
Your view on this presupposes that everyone has had a chance to hear the gospel and that they do have a chance to believe it once they have exposure to the gospel.
This is not "my view" but what Scripture reveals:
"But I say, Have they not heard? Yes, verily, their sound went INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS UNTO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD" (Rom. 10:18).
This is stated in the context of the preaching of the Gospel (Rom. 10:8-21).
God uses whatever means are necessary to bring the Gospel to hungry hearts. We must believe it. And we must presume nothing, since only God knows hearts, and only God has the power to reach them.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 5/17/2008 1:16:04 PM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 1:09:48 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1980
Status: offline
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quote:
Mormons have suggested to me that God puts a ladder down into the pit, but man has to climb the ladder to get out.
This is false. What man has to do is simply "call upon the name of the Lord":
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him. For whosoever shall CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD shall be saved" (Rom. 10:12,13).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 4:02:38 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2276
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
And we must presume nothing, since only God knows hearts, and only God has the power to reach them.
What good is His power to save if it doesn't bring conviction?
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 4:08:09 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2276
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Mormons have suggested to me that God puts a ladder down into the pit, but man has to climb the ladder to get out.
This is false. What man has to do is simply "call upon the name of the Lord":
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him. For whosoever shall CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD shall be saved" (Rom. 10:12,13).
Matthew 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 18
3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
John 3
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 6
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 4:14:49 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2276
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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Thank you for sharing, Heavendweller. I won't try to deciper or analyze what has happened. Just realize that I don't blame God for anything. He is wiser than any of us are.
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 6:54:24 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1980
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
And we must presume nothing, since only God knows hearts, and only God has the power to reach them.
What good is His power to save if it doesn't bring conviction?
What if it does bring conviction, yet those convicted refuse to repent, and love their sins and idols more than their salvation? Love darkness more than light, because their deeds are evil? How do you know what occurs in someone else's heart?
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is God trying to save all sinners? - 5/17/2008 7:05:35 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1980
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Mormons have suggested to me that God puts a ladder down into the pit, but man has to climb the ladder to get out.
This is false. What man has to do is simply "call upon the name of the Lord":
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him. For whosoever shall CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD shall be saved" (Rom. 10:12,13).
Matthew 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
This verse is speaking of false professors, therefore has no place here.
Matthew 18
3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
To call upon the name of the Lord is to also repent and be converted. They are two sides of the same coin.
John 3
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Those who call upon the name of the Lord are saved. To be saved is to be justified by faith, to receive forgiveness of sins, and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. To receive the gift of the Holy Spirit is to be born again by His power.
John 6
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Exactly. Those who are saved are given to Christ by the Father, and those who truly call upon the name of the Lord are never cast out.
All you have done is confirm from Scripture that the sinner must call upon the name of the Lord in order to be saved.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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I don't know why I keep asking for an explanation. If God is trying to save people, I don't understand why He doesn't try harder. And I don't understand why one person would have more pride than another unless God made the person that way.
