RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (Full Version)

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SonInMe1 -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (5/22/2008 8:28:21 PM)

quote:

Since my doctrine IS perfect, anti-christs must be...must...be those who disagree with me.


I tried to define an aspect of this discussion with this comment. To recognise anti-christs there must be a criteria and as often as not what I stated IS the criteria.

Ask a pentacostal what an anti-christ is and he might say a catholic.



pstrdebi -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (5/22/2008 10:58:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

quote:

Since my doctrine IS perfect, Antichrists must be...must...be those who disagree with me.


I tried to define an aspect of this discussion with this comment. To recognise Antichrists there must be a criteria and as often as not what I stated IS the criteria.

Ask a Pentecostal what an antichrist is and he might say a catholic.


I guess we would need to see your doctrine in writing in order to make any further determinations. No reflection on you... just a statement, but David Koresh believed his doctrine to be perfect also.

So... if your doctrine is, in fact, not correct... then you would be falsely calling an awful lot of people here, the antichrist.

Additionally, I have known quite a few very charismatic Catholics, and I am Pentecostal... and I would not call them antichrists.

Also... many denominations have slightly differing opinions on lesser issues, such as baptism. And they have integrated them into their doctrinal beliefs. So... if one denomination believes in sprinkling and disagree with your beliefs in dunking... then you would be calling them antichrists?!?! [8|]

Blessings...
Pastor Debi



SonInMe1 -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (5/23/2008 7:38:50 AM)

quote:

So... if your doctrine is, in fact, not correct... then you would be falsely calling an awful lot of people here, the antichrist.


I will say I wasn't talking about my specific doctrine. It was an example of how the defining of antichrists could be prejudicial.

quote:

Additionally, I have known quite a few very charismatic Catholics, and I am Pentecostal... and I would not call them antichrists


Again my example was just that, not a statement of fact.



just_Bryan -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (5/30/2008 1:31:36 AM)

I honestly believe there is a woman that is already at work ushering in the antichrist. This woman is of great wealth, power and influence. She entertains an audience of millions, has already denied Christ and now hosts (in addition to her own show) a show gaining in popularity featuring New Age theology that is confusing Christains all over the world. You know who she is. That in itself should tell you something.



kelman -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (5/30/2008 5:03:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Dear Pastor Debi,

You say the antichrist "spirit" is running rampant. Are we to assume that the antichrist is in fact a spirit (Satan, the devil) or is he/she/it actually a person as some posts here seem to suggest.

The Bible references aren't too clear about this. Also the references in 1 John and 2 John hint that he is here already - i.e. at the time of writing those words 2000 or so years ago. This suggests he is a spirit - i.e. satan.
I think 1John 2:18; 4:3 does a little more than "hint" that antichrist was already there when John penned the book. So, I would agree "the" antichrist is a spirit which would have to be Satan. Of course, he is not alone in his work...

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. -2Corinthians 11:13-15

2John 1:7 gives more relevant information. It speaks of one who is a "deceiver"; and, there is no greater deceiver than Satan. In fact, he is called the "father of lies".



4IMPersuaded -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (5/30/2008 7:42:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: just_Bryan

I honestly believe there is a woman that is already at work ushering in the antichrist. This woman is of great wealth, power and influence. She entertains an audience of millions, has already denied Christ and now hosts (in addition to her own show) a show gaining in popularity featuring New Age theology that is confusing Christains all over the world. You know who she is. That in itself should tell you something.

I was thinking the same thing. I saw her video on YouTube and I was physically nauseated-- and I immediately thought of THE Antichrist. Perhaps not her, but she could certainly be his "John the Baptist" paving the way. I used to watch her show without fail because of the positive, uplifting message. Little did I know what it was leading to. I know God has all of this under control, I have no need to fear-- I am just saddened at all of those who mistake her prettily packaged trash as gospel. It is, indeed, filthy rags. We need to remember, though, that she is not beyond salvation-- pray for her.



RevMick -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (5/31/2008 10:16:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

Debate is fun. However I don't believe anyone understands Revelation to the point a valuable debate can occur.

The Left Behind series colors many perceptions of what the end times will be.

Ted Dekker has a completely different view in his Red, Black and White series.

I also think we must be careful who we call and anti-christ. Because someone does not agree with your doctrines does not make them an antichrist.


I believe that the problem is that there are so many doctrines when there is only one doctrine that we should follow. I also believe that numerous conflicting ideas or doctrines is a tool used by the spirit of the anti-christ, the evil one, to confuse and confound us to keep our minds and hearts off the truth of the doctrine of the Holy God.



pstrdebi -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (6/1/2008 6:03:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RevMick

I also believe that numerous conflicting ideas or doctrines is a tool used by the spirit of the anti-christ, the evil one, to confuse and confound us to keep our minds and hearts off the truth of the doctrine of the Holy God.


This is so absolutely true! The body of Christ (the true body of Christ) is suppose to be united... ie: like mind, like spirit, etc. When we speak to young adults today... (between 18 and 25) it is amazing just how much they are bombarded with in regard to so many "church-ly" views. It's crazy. And it is sad that so much of the twisted doctrine is being preached from pulpits that were not founded on the un-truths they are teaching today.

[&o]



SonInMe1 -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (6/1/2008 6:44:14 PM)

Please...outline for us the "perfect doctrine"

Thanks.



pstrdebi -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (6/1/2008 11:32:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

Please...outline for us the "perfect doctrine"

Thanks.


This is a good list to begin with....

Basic Christian Doctrine

There is only one God - Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Gal. 4:8-9
God is a Trinity - 2 Cor. 13:14; 1 Pet. 1:2
There are no Gods before or after God - Isaiah 43:10
God knows all things - 1 John 3:20
God is all powerful - Psalm 115:3
God is everywhere - Jer. 23:23,24
God is sovereign - Zech. 9:14; 1 Tim. 6:15-16
God is spirit - John 4:24
God created all that exists - Gen. 1:1; Isaiah 44:24
Spirit does not have a body of flesh and bones - Luke 24:39
God has always been God - Psalm 90:2
Jesus is God - John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8
Jesus became a man - Phil. 2:5-8
Jesus has two natures: divine and human - Col. 2:9; 1 Tim. 2:5
Jesus was sinless - 1 Pet. 2:22
Jesus is the only way to God the Father - John 14:6; Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22
The Holy Spirit is God - Acts 5:3-4
The Holy Spirit is not a force. He is alive - Acts 13:2
The Bible is inspired by God - 2 Tim. 3:16
All people have sinned - Rom. 3:23, 5:12
Man did not evolve, he was created - Gen. 1:26
Adam and Eve were real people - Gen. 3:20; 5:1; 1 Tim. 2:13
Death entered the world because of Adam's sin - Rom. 5:12-15
Sin separates us from God - Isaiah 59:2
Jesus died for all our sins - 1 John 2:2; 2 Cor. 5:14; 1 Pet. 2:24
Jesus' sacrifice was a substitution, for us - 1 Pet. 2:24
Jesus rose from the dead in His physical body - John 2:19-21
Those who reject Jesus will go to Hell - Rev. 20:11-15
Hell is a place of fiery punishment - Matt. 25:41; Rev. 19:20
Hell is eternal - Matt. 25:46
The unsaved go to hell forever - Rev. 21:8
Salvation is a free gift of God - Rom. 4:5; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9
The Bible is the Word of God - 2 Tim. 3:16
Jesus will return visibly to earth - Acts 1:11
Christians will be raised from the dead when Jesus returns - 1 Thess. 4:14-17
There will be a rapture (being caught up into the clouds with Jesus) -
1 Thess. 4:14-17
There will be a final judgment - 2 Pet. 3:7
The damned will be thrown into a lake of fire - Rev. 20:15
Satan will be cast into the lake of fire - Rev. 20:10
There will be a new heavens and a new earth - 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1

Primary Essentials...
Stated specifically in scripture that these cannot be denied and still be a Christian. They deal with the nature of God, the atonement, and its method of salvation applied to the believer. Denial of any Primary essential constitutes lack of regeneration, lack of salvation. Note: Regeneration means the believer is indwelt by God, changed, and enabled to understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:15)

1. Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).
2. Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
3. Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).
4. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal.1:8-9).
5. There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)

Denial of any of the above doctrines is stated in scripture constitutes being non-Christian.

Secondary Essentials...
Not stated in scripture as essential, but are derivatively essential since they deal with accurately describing the true God and they are based, in part, on the Primary Essentials. Denial strongly suggests lack of regeneration.

6. God exists as a Trinity of persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
7. Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary (nature of incarnation)
8. Jesus is the only way to God the Father (John 14:6).

God is a Trinity and though a person may not understand or initially affirm the Trinity doctrine upon regeneration, he will eventually come to accept it since it is a biblically true revelation describing the true God. Jesus was born of a virgin which is essential when defending the two natures of Jesus: divine and human. If Jesus were not born of a virgin, then His patronage would be in doubt as well as His divine nature. Without a divine nature, Jesus would not be able to atone for the sins of the world.

Additional essentials...
denial of these would bring into question a person's regeneration since acceptance of these show the work of regeneration of the heart

9. Moral integrity (Exodus 20:1-17)
10. Fidelity in marriage in heterosexual relationships
11. The condemnation of homosexuality.
12. Inerrancy of the Bible
13. Baptism is not necessary for salvation (Acts 10:44-48)

[;)]



SonInMe1 -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (6/2/2008 2:02:38 AM)

quote:

There will be a rapture (being caught up into the clouds with Jesus)


I agree with everything posted, even this quoited part but I think there is much debate on this.



pstrdebi -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (6/2/2008 7:18:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

quote:

There will be a rapture (being caught up into the clouds with Jesus)


I agree with everything posted, even this quoited part but I think there is much debate on this.


I'm glad we are in agreement.

And yes, I have heard many different opinions about the rapture also.

Did you happen to watch that special on the History Channel about the last days? We never put much credence into those shows (talk about the antichrist [8|])... but it was interesting to us that there were professors of Theology debating (or coming against) biblical principles. I think you can actually pull it up on line and watch it.... or at least see when they'll have it on again.

God bless...
Pastor Debi



oldmethuselah -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (6/2/2008 8:28:34 PM)

quote:

Basically, I consider those who actively fight and promote anti-Christianity or promote the idea that Christianity is a sham, those who actively purport a different gospel, are antichrists.


So...I suppose St. Paul was one? and then he changed?... so, can an antichrist repent?



makarizo -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (6/2/2008 9:06:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

Ask a pentacostal what an anti-christ is and he might say a catholic.


OR ask an amish man what an anti christ is and he will say a catholic.

quote:

So...I suppose St. Paul was one? and then he changed?... so, can an antichrist repent?


1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.


I think Saul fit into this catagory before he changed his name to Paul.

Paul was indeed a saint just like all the other believers.



oldmethuselah -> How High Can You Count? (6/2/2008 10:42:59 PM)

PSTRDEBI...

Well with the 41 points, the 5 primary, 3 secondary, and 5 additional rules and attributes that represent true doctrine, I think you are making a pretty good start on the 600 odd additional thoughts and ideas that religious wisemen of the past added to the original Jewish doctrines!

and you didn't even mention speaking in tongues as an essential to obedient servanthood!

now, the wonderful thing about your research (unlike the extemporizing of the Jewish learned men) is that it is based solidly on scripture. In fact I can find no point of disagreement with my personal stand, BUT that does NOT make all of the points ESSENTIALS (if I may explain)!

For example: Though you and I may agree with the rapture in the way you have described, I am MOST willing to acknowledge that those who think that we may have to go through the tribulation (instead of being swept away) can be Christians too - and jolly good ones!

ALSO... do you think a child can accept Christ in a simple way?... If you answer "yes", do you think they have internalized all our points and sub-points, secondaries and additionals before they are saved?

what about the thief on the cross - was he granted the time for a complete "run through" before he died?

Good Doctrine is essential, and your list an impressive serving of solid meaty concepts, are you willing to give baby Christians a little while to digest it? (this too, is scriptural)



pstrdebi -> RE: How High Can You Count? (6/3/2008 1:02:51 AM)

Absolutely!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldmethuselah

PSTRDEBI...

Well with the 41 points, the 5 primary, 3 secondary, and 5 additional rules and attributes that represent true doctrine, I think you are making a pretty good start on the 600 odd additional thoughts and ideas that religious wisemen of the past added to the original Jewish doctrines!


Remember... at the beginning I said, "This is a good list to begin with...."
there are additional non-essentials too.

quote:


and you didn't even mention speaking in tongues as an essential to obedient servanthood!


Oh, but I do believe in speaking in tongues.... I don't, however, believe that it is an essential. The Word tells us, "To SOME are given..." (just my personal opinion... nothing to split a fellowship over)

quote:


now, the wonderful thing about your research (unlike the extemporizing of the Jewish learned men) is that it is based solidly on scripture. In fact I can find no point of disagreement with my personal stand, BUT that does NOT make all of the points ESSENTIALS (if I may explain)!

For example: Though you and I may agree with the rapture in the way you have described, I am MOST willing to acknowledge that those who think that we may have to go through the tribulation (instead of being swept away) can be Christians too - and jolly good ones!


I agree... My inclusion of "the rapture" was not in the Primary or secondary essentials or even the additionals... simply because I believe this is an "opinion" with no absolute proof (although some would disagree) of pre, mid or post trib to go off of.

quote:


ALSO... do you think a child can accept Christ in a simple way?... If you answer "yes", do you think they have internalized all our points and sub-points, secondaries and additionals before they are saved?


Yes. and nope! I received Christ at Christian camp when I was 13. I was a Catholic who had a praying Baptist older sister who sent me. (I knew even as a child that there was something not right with going to "the guy in the box" to tell him my sins!) I didn't have a clue about anything in those lists... I just knew that I finally found out that what I felt inside of me was right, and I could finally talk to Jesus myself!!

The same as when my now 22 and 23 year old kids sayt on my bed at 4 and 5 years old... prayed a simple prayer to ask Jesus in their hearts, fell back on my bed with their hands over their hearts and said, "Are the angers her now mom?".... I know that they meant it, Jesus heard them, and He entered their hearts!

quote:


what about the thief on the cross - was he granted the time for a complete "run through" before he died?


I just had a call from my mother-in-law who prayed the sinners prayer with her brother-in-law who is dying. His son-in-law, a Christian man, just can't accept the fact that this man, who lived a life of hell on earth, can pray to God at the end of his life and be accepted into heaven. [&o]

quote:


Good Doctrine is essential, and your list an impressive serving of solid meaty concepts, are you willing to give baby Christians a little while to digest it? (this too, is scriptural)


Absolutely!! Doctrine is important... however, it is something to be learned as we grow in Christ, in the principles of the Word, etc.

And btw... baby Christians are my heartbeat. I will always remember, oh so many years ago, trying to dicyfer "Christianese," the confusion I felt because I didn't know the Word, etc. Whenever I speak somewhere or write something... I always stop and think, how would a new believer receive this.

(and I apologize to any new believer's reading this... hope you're not confused by it all![:)])

Blessings...
Pastor Debi
[:D]



oldmethuselah -> RE: How High Can You Count? (6/3/2008 6:04:26 AM)

well answered pastor debi...

and, as an aside, we should have a special emoticon for "tongue in cheek" as that was the intention of my glossolia "essential" remark! ROFL

and we ALSO never touched on the whole WOMEN PASTORS essential either! [:D][:D][:D][:D]

but, as you WELL know, the speaking in tongues and women pastors issues have caused SO many heated debates (each side virtually accusing the other of being anti-christs) .... the list goes on.....

in the meantime... keep on keeping on... see you later!



Cloak -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (6/3/2008 7:34:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StronginGod

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi

Do you believe there is an antichrist? Is he here or when will he come? What does he look like to you? Etc.

Thanks!
Pastor Debi
[;)]


Yes... I believe there is THE antichrist to come... and I believe his spirit lives here now. The Word says so. I bellieve the antichrist spirit dwells in many churches across this world, including America. It's sad, but I believe that is so.



Well-said StronginGod! I believe that any one who teaches principles contrary to what the Holy Bible, the Word of God teaches is in deed an Antichrist and that includes churches, pastors, clergymen, individuals who claim to be Christians.

It is a sad fact; yet the Bible talks somewhere about this phenomenon. So we would be wise to remember to be vigilant and not trust any one Religious or spiritual. We really have to pray for discernment and insight.



pstrdebi -> RE: How High Can You Count? (6/3/2008 10:52:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldmethuselah

and we ALSO never touched on the whole WOMEN PASTORS essential either! [:D][:D][:D][:D]


HA!!!!

How did I know that was coming??????? [:D][:)][&:][8|]

God Bless you!
Pastor Debi
[;)]



pstrdebi -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (6/6/2008 10:45:25 PM)

I said at the beginning of this thread that I had my idea's of what the antichrist would look or be like.

We just watched this person on TV... for as long as we could take it.

So, so sad... thousands of people.... all getting their ears tickled.... and not a word (up to where we listened) about Jesus.

Oh dear God... where is this world headed?
Save us Lord, Jesus.
[&o]



colliefan -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (6/6/2008 11:16:52 PM)

Many anti-christs have come and gone. I believe that individual is alive today. While I do not believe Obama has that role, I believe it will be someone who shares his characteristics.

Good looking. Articulate. On the surface, personable.

He will work miracles and make it apear he is almost divine. He will attempt to unite the world's major faith groups.

I just don't want to be here when he is made known.



HisFish -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (6/6/2008 11:55:41 PM)

He will have one over riding distinctive that will make him easy to spot, the Snidely Whiplash laugh.
(sorry, couldent help myself)[:D]
p.s. google him if your not old enough to recognize whom im referring to.



pstrdebi -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (6/7/2008 12:39:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

While I do not believe Obama has that role, I believe it will be someone who shares his characteristics.


I'm not refering to Obama... this one is on every Christian tv channel out there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisFish

He will have one over riding distinctive that will make him easy to spot, the Snidely Whiplash laugh.
(sorry, couldent help myself)[:D]
p.s. google him if your not old enough to recognize whom im referring to.


I remember Snidely [:)][&o][8|]
[:D]



frankman -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (6/9/2008 5:16:22 PM)

I believe we should be very careful in naming names on who we think the anti-christ may be. During Paul`s time they all figured it had to be the evil Emperor of Rome, Nero, but it wasn`t. In 1945 they all though it had to be the Chancellor of Germany, Adolf Hitler, but it wasn`t. So on and on it goes, for we don`t know who the anti-christ may be, nor the time period during which he will reign for 7 years. All we know is that he will reign before Christ`s retutn to earth because the Bible tells us so.

In Matt.24:36 we read "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." This means Satan doesn`t even know the hour in history he will have to have his man ready to rule the world for a short period of time in order to fulfil the prophecies of Rev.13. So because Satan doesn`t even know the time of the end of the ages, could it be that the Devil has had a man ready to play this role of being the anti-christ since Christ ascended up into heaven with the promise to someday return? If this is true, there`s always been a person waiting in the wind in every generation since Christ`s ascension to play the role of the anti-christ.

[:)] Just a thought for discussion!



pstrdebi -> RE: Have You Seen The Antichrist????? (6/9/2008 11:49:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankman

I believe we should be very careful in naming names on who we think the anti-christ may be.
So because Satan doesn`t even know the time of the end of the ages, could it be that the Devil has had a man ready to play this role of being the anti-christ since Christ ascended up into heaven with the promise to someday return? If this is true, there`s always been a person waiting in the wind in every generation since Christ`s ascension to play the role of the anti-christ.

[:)] Just a though for discussion!


Oh, I agree. We do need to be careful... that is why I said<

quote:


my idea's of what the antichrist would look or be like.


I don't think this person is the antichrist... just that the personality, the seeker friendly genre, etc... lends to the description of the antichrist. However, I do think the antichrist spirit is in that church.

quote:


So because Satan doesn`t even know the time of the end of the ages, could it be that the Devil has had a man ready to play this role of being the anti-christ since Christ ascended up into heaven with the promise to someday return? If this is true, there`s always been a person waiting in the wind in every generation since Christ`s ascension to play the role of the anti-christ.


A very real possibility.
[8|]



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