RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves????????

RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [General] >> Current Events

Message

davemiller7 -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (5/19/2008 1:21:43 PM)
Don't be ridiculous. The claim against you would have to have evidence to back it up. If they caught you wearing a suicide bomber belt, I'm sure you'd land in the "pokey" (old American term for jail/prison). -Dave quote: ORIGINAL: WormHeart quote: ORIGINAL: davemiller7 Only an American, arrested in America or its possessions (Puerto Rico, Guam, etc.) for criminal activities, is entitled to the protections guaranteed by the Constitution and Bill Of Rights. If, for instance, you, come over here and try to blow up things in America in an act of war, you should not be entitled to our rights. Wrong scenario. What you seem to be advocating is this: I visit your great nation. Someone takes a grudge toward me - maybe he's girlfriend takes an interest in me, pehaps he just dislikes my political views - in any event he claim I plan to perform a terroist attack on the US. And so - being a non-US-citizen - I get thrown into jail without a trail - without a lawyer - without any real possibility to defend myself. And since the rights are only for US-citizens, I can face life in some secret prison. Is that it? How can you make sure you got the right guy / girl without a trial? WormHeart

WormHeart -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (5/20/2008 2:14:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: davemiller7 Don't be ridiculous. The claim against you would have to have evidence to back it up. If they caught you wearing a suicide bomber belt, I'm sure you'd land in the "pokey" (old American term for jail/prison). -Dave You do realize that a lot of the people who went to Guantanamo had no evidence against them, but were handed over by locals for the bounty the US offered for any non-afghans, right? But never-the-less... if there is no defence, but only a prosecuter, how fair would that evaluation be? Theres a reason for the way our jurical systems work, you know. WormHeart

WormHeart -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (5/20/2008 2:17:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lightshineon Ok, how do you suggest we treat terorist, they are a different breed, as I said than domestic Terrorist. They are so brainwashed they blow themselves up. They are insane, if looking at the definition of insanity. You cannot deal with them as you can with even the most hardened criminal. Trust me, on this I know it from personal experience. They will kill if realesed in mass groups. Look stand up for them,a ndthey will behead or cut your head off anyway. I love my God, my family, and my country. Leave the ones who know what they are doing, to know what to do. You are not there, and do not know what they are dealing with. I said some of it maybe trial and error, but we are not just a bunch of criminals ourselfs wishing to torment people of the Middle East. The same way you treat suspected serial killers. I dont object to harsh punishments - I object to the obstruction of justice. You dont lock up suspected serial killers forever without a trial, do you? Build a case - if they are guilty, convict them and sentence them to life in prison or the death penalty. Just make sure you dont loose the very values you fight to protect... WormHeart

lightshineon -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (5/21/2008 6:28:10 PM)
WormHeart, I think they have people who are quilty, and have realeased some I know were quilty. They get what information they can to break these cell groups who are plotting your death as well as mine. The CIA is doing what is necessary, Terrorist are like cockroaches, where there is one they mutiply, and hard to kill. CIA does not really want these little muscle men, who just blow their crazy selfs up. They want to find information to get to the main leaders, who will do you and me harm. This is terrorist goal to kill an destroy, so why ,in the world do we, who are being protected, trash those who are looking out for our best interest? That just makes no sense to me, as hard as I try and get, what you and Henny are saying, and I really try, and see your side, but it just does not mesh. Do you think, really, think seriously the American CIA, Homeland security, even the President, just want to find people who are from the Middle East torture them, hold them prisoner, and persecute them, because, well, the goverment and powers to be just want too? Do you think I and others do not cry for these prisoners are just cold hearted, mean Christians whishing to see the innocent persecuted? quote: ORIGINAL: WormHeart quote: ORIGINAL: lightshineon Ok, how do you suggest we treat terorist, they are a different breed, as I said than domestic Terrorist. They are so brainwashed they blow themselves up. They are insane, if looking at the definition of insanity. You cannot deal with them as you can with even the most hardened criminal. Trust me, on this I know it from personal experience. They will kill if realesed in mass groups. Look stand up for them,a ndthey will behead or cut your head off anyway. I love my God, my family, and my country. Leave the ones who know what they are doing, to know what to do. You are not there, and do not know what they are dealing with. I said some of it maybe trial and error, but we are not just a bunch of criminals ourselfs wishing to torment people of the Middle East. The same way you treat suspected serial killers. I dont object to harsh punishments - I object to the obstruction of justice. You dont lock up suspected serial killers forever without a trial, do you? Build a case - if they are guilty, convict them and sentence them to life in prison or the death penalty. Just make sure you dont loose the very values you fight to protect... WormHeart

tracydolls -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (5/21/2008 11:15:53 PM)
quote: Terrorist are like cockroaches, where there is one they mutiply, and hard to kill. Terrorists are humans. That need Jesus just like everyone else. Jesus sees them as lost souls also. I try to think what would make me kill? Sitting in 120 degree weather, no water or electricity , my kids screaming, I would'nt want too, I Would want the Lord to give me Love enough to love my enemies.....

lightshineon -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (5/21/2008 11:35:36 PM)
I agree with love, what makes them want to kill is they are just crazy, with that mission as the number one goal. Love does not change who they are, but can change us. They really hate you and I Tracy, and would slit our throats with no more thought than cutting a hogs throat. quote: ORIGINAL: tracydolls quote: Terrorist are like cockroaches, where there is one they mutiply, and hard to kill. Terrorists are humans. That need Jesus just like everyone else. Jesus sees them as lost souls also. I try to think what would make me kill? Sitting in 120 degree weather, no water or electricity , my kids screaming, I would'nt want too, I Would want the Lord to give me Love enough to love my enemies.....

WormHeart -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (5/23/2008 12:55:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lightshineon Do you think, really, think seriously the American CIA, Homeland security, even the President, just want to find people who are from the Middle East torture them, hold them prisoner, and persecute them, because, well, the goverment and powers to be just want too? Do you think I and others do not cry for these prisoners are just cold hearted, mean Christians whishing to see the innocent persecuted? Well, you can ask law-inforcement the same question. Would the police and the prosecuter really want to jail innocent people? Of course not. Then why have a defence at all? Because mistakes are made, particular in such edgy circumstances. Question - if someone is in Guantanamo for the wrong reasons - how do you suggest they clear themselves? WormHeart

lightshineon -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (5/23/2008 1:39:24 AM)
Well I suggest you pray for the innocent to be set free, maybe you and I could do that everyday. I pray that for those in prisons, that are innocent, as hokey as it sounds. I would bet you worm though, many of these men are not innocent, if I were a betting woman. quote: ORIGINAL: WormHeart quote: ORIGINAL: lightshineon Do you think, really, think seriously the American CIA, Homeland security, even the President, just want to find people who are from the Middle East torture them, hold them prisoner, and persecute them, because, well, the goverment and powers to be just want too? Do you think I and others do not cry for these prisoners are just cold hearted, mean Christians whishing to see the innocent persecuted? Well, you can ask law-inforcement the same question. Would the police and the prosecuter really want to jail innocent people? Of course not. Then why have a defence at all? Because mistakes are made, particular in such edgy circumstances. Question - if someone is in Guantanamo for the wrong reasons - how do you suggest they clear themselves? WormHeart

tracydolls -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (5/23/2008 2:40:12 AM)
quote: Question - if someone is in Guantanamo for the wrong reasons - how do you suggest they clear themselves? Is there a way they can? I just think right now if the gov't in France said pick up all americans, an american bombed x, y or z. We would scream bloody murder if those americans we're not given a chance even to tell their side. We could'nt even get reporters in? We would be ready to bomb France. I just don't like the Homeland act, what if the wrong guy gets ahold of it and says Christians are terrorists. they bomb clinics, kill doctors, etc. then what?

lightshineon -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (5/23/2008 9:55:55 PM)
These people are not for your good Tracy, they are a different breed. Not saying they are not human, but are trained killing machines.

tracydolls -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (5/24/2008 1:47:51 AM)
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/03/27/contractors/?rsssource=1 I know.

pbaribeault -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (5/24/2008 1:37:59 PM)
I think that terrorists are pretty much as you describe them, and the ought to be prosecuted and punished according to their crimes. The trouble is that there is no reliable way to find out which people are or aren't terrorists. A justice system that involves suspicion leading to CHARGES, prosecution, DEFENSE, EVIDENCE and a verdict is generally reliable, and it also has the advantage of being ethical. The whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing is important too, as well as a judgment needing to be "beyond reasonable doubt". When a "justice" system skips charges, disables adequate defense, and requires neither proof nor evidence beyond reasonable doubt -- well I can see how that would catch and imprison a lot more terrorists... and a lot of other suspicious people too... all of them presumed guilty, and incapable of defending their own innocence. That's just not "justice" to me. To me that's the wild west -- shoot them all and let God sort them out. (Imprison them all and let them rot, just in case they might be terrorists.) If the general idea is that some of you are OK with some random innocent foreigners rotting in your prisons, simply because it keeps you safe from the real terrorists that you can't prove anything against either... I guess that's sensible from a certain point of view, that the innocent are victimized for the greater good, and lots of Americans don't get attacked because of their sacrifice. I guess I can understand that point of view, I just don't call it justice. There's a reason that most nations consider America to be the schoolyard bully of the world. Maybe thats why some other nations are out to get America in the first place. quote: If you believe that we are not the only ones who are entitled to exclusive rights in our own country, but that others should have the same b/c of some unspoken worldwide right to humanity, I must say that it does not appear the United States of America is the right country for you to live in. This is exactly what I believe.

lightshineon -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (5/24/2008 3:25:05 PM)
There may be innocent imprisoned, and they need to to make sure they are tried. I think they truthfully are trying to obtain information from these people in prison to get to the head of the cell groups. there is a war on terror, if we want to admit it or not. These people are different, as far as your average killers. Does anyone have proof these men, any of them are not out to harm us? I really do not care if the world sees us as Bullies. Bullies, flew helpless people into buildings. I imagine it felt so helpless, to know there was no way out. I am not a cold person, I pray for the innocent to be realesed. I also pray those who wish our harm, are kept there. I maybe misunderstanding you, but, these cowards are crazy, finding any excuse to kill, steal, and destroy. Did you lose anyone on 911? I did not, but had an adventure during the whole thing, so I really do not care if a suicide bomber judges my morals as an American. Give the ones trying to protect you and me some grace, instead of judgment. quote: ORIGINAL: pbaribeault I think that terrorists are pretty much as you describe them, and the ought to be prosecuted and punished according to their crimes. The trouble is that there is no reliable way to find out which people are or aren't terrorists. A justice system that involves suspicion leading to CHARGES, prosecution, DEFENSE, EVIDENCE and a verdict is generally reliable, and it also has the advantage of being ethical. The whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing is important too, as well as a judgment needing to be "beyond reasonable doubt". When a "justice" system skips charges, disables adequate defense, and requires neither proof nor evidence beyond reasonable doubt -- well I can see how that would catch and imprison a lot more terrorists... and a lot of other suspicious people too... all of them presumed guilty, and incapable of defending their own innocence. That's just not "justice" to me. To me that's the wild west -- shoot them all and let God sort them out. (Imprison them all and let them rot, just in case they might be terrorists.) If the general idea is that some of you are OK with some random innocent foreigners rotting in your prisons, simply because it keeps you safe from the real terrorists that you can't prove anything against either... I guess that's sensible from a certain point of view, that the innocent are victimized for the greater good, and lots of Americans don't get attacked because of their sacrifice. I guess I can understand that point of view, I just don't call it justice. There's a reason that most nations consider America to be the schoolyard bully of the world. Maybe thats why some other nations are out to get America in the first place. quote: If you believe that we are not the only ones who are entitled to exclusive rights in our own country, but that others should have the same b/c of some unspoken worldwide right to humanity, I must say that it does not appear the United States of America is the right country for you to live in. This is exactly what I believe.

pbaribeault -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (5/24/2008 5:12:13 PM)
quote: There may be innocent imprisoned, and they need to to make sure they are tried. How? quote: I think they truthfully are trying to obtain information from these people in prison to get to the head of the cell groups. there is a war on terror, if we want to admit it or not. I agree that this is probably 'their' goal. quote: These people are different, as far as your average killers. Yes, the actual terrorist are very different from killers by other motivation... but those imprisoned under false suspicion are also different from ordinary killers -- not being killers at all. quote: Does anyone have proof these men, any of them are not out to harm us? Should any man or woman have to PROVE that they are not out to harm others? How would anybody do that? How would you prove to me that you are not a terrorist? Difficult under any circumstances right? Now imagine you were already in military prison, had never spoken to a lawyer, were not allowed any outside contact, and were being interrogated and threatened by people who were already sure you were guilty. What kind of 'proof' could innocent-you manage to supply? quote: I really do not care if the world sees us as Bullies. Bullies, flew helpless people into buildings. I imagine it felt so helpless, to know there was no way out. Fair enough. It's your reputation... but a reputation like that has international repercussions. quote: I am not a cold person, I pray for the innocent to be realesed. So, at least you find the injustice regrettable, even though you consider it either justified or necessary. (Which one, BTW?) quote: I also pray those who wish our harm, are kept there. Me too. quote: I maybe misunderstanding you, but, these cowards are crazy, finding any excuse to kill, steal, and destroy. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. I've already agreed that the terrorists are pretty much as you describe. I just don't grasp why that fact justifies imprisoning other people. quote: Did you lose anyone on 911? I did not, but had an adventure during the whole thing, No. I am sorry for whatever occurred to you personally that day. quote: so I really do not care if a suicide bomber judges my morals as an American. You're right, that's really the pot calling the kettle black, but I was thinking more about you overall international reputation, not just how the enemies of your state think about you. quote: Give the ones trying to protect you and me some grace, instead of judgment. It is not my intention to judge, as in being judgmental, but I think we are all responsible to make moral judgments, as in evaluations of right and wrong. I have very little respect for people who are trying to "protect me" through methods that I consider unethical. I'm the kind of person who would rather have wrong done to me (and my nation by extension) than to do wrong myself (or as a nation). As for grace, I certainly offer grace; America has been sorely provoked and has taken a defensive position out of fear. That's a tough thing, and my grace abounds -- but grace doesn't change whether an action (or national policy) is wrong or right.

lightshineon -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (5/24/2008 6:01:50 PM)
Hi, well I agree with you on some points, maybe we could pray for the innocent, if there are innocent people imprisoned. I stated earlier this is a trial an error probaly on the part of officals. It is a necessary evil, not justfying it, but can see the necessity for it, at this time. I am not willing to lay down other lives, friends, family, so on for this. It is one thing to lay down our own lives, but, not everyone elses. The reputation of these other countries is lacking, and I am sorry thier askewed thinking does not define me or other citizens of the United States. I do not have all the moral wisdom, none of us do. Praying would be a good start for our leaders, the men and women who interogate these prisoners, and the prisoners themselves guilty or innocent. One prayer can change a nation, and terrorist, and release the innocent. I do, however, honestly think, they are looking for our best interest, though things need to change, this is all new, and confusing. I imagine FBI profilers are all over this, it is just something that is not perfected, lets pray and see what happens. Blessings[:)] quote: ORIGINAL: pbaribeault quote: There may be innocent imprisoned, and they need to to make sure they are tried. How? quote: I think they truthfully are trying to obtain information from these people in prison to get to the head of the cell groups. there is a war on terror, if we want to admit it or not. I agree that this is probably 'their' goal. quote: These people are different, as far as your average killers. Yes, the actual terrorist are very different from killers by other motivation... but those imprisoned under false suspicion are also different from ordinary killers -- not being killers at all. quote: Does anyone have proof these men, any of them are not out to harm us? Should any man or woman have to PROVE that they are not out to harm others? How would anybody do that? How would you prove to me that you are not a terrorist? Difficult under any circumstances right? Now imagine you were already in military prison, had never spoken to a lawyer, were not allowed any outside contact, and were being interrogated and threatened by people who were already sure you were guilty. What kind of 'proof' could innocent-you manage to supply? quote: I really do not care if the world sees us as Bullies. Bullies, flew helpless people into buildings. I imagine it felt so helpless, to know there was no way out. Fair enough. It's your reputation... but a reputation like that has international repercussions. quote: I am not a cold person, I pray for the innocent to be realesed. So, at least you find the injustice regrettable, even though you consider it either justified or necessary. (Which one, BTW?) quote: I also pray those who wish our harm, are kept there. Me too. quote: I maybe misunderstanding you, but, these cowards are crazy, finding any excuse to kill, steal, and destroy. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. I've already agreed that the terrorists are pretty much as you describe. I just don't grasp why that fact justifies imprisoning other people. quote: Did you lose anyone on 911? I did not, but had an adventure during the whole thing, No. I am sorry for whatever occurred to you personally that day. quote: so I really do not care if a suicide bomber judges my morals as an American. You're right, that's really the pot calling the kettle black, but I was thinking more about you overall international reputation, not just how the enemies of your state think about you. quote: Give the ones trying to protect you and me some grace, instead of judgment. It is not my intention to judge, as in being judgmental, but I think we are all responsible to make moral judgments, as in evaluations of right and wrong. I have very little respect for people who are trying to "protect me" through methods that I consider unethical. I'm the kind of person who would rather have wrong done to me (and my nation by extension) than to do wrong myself (or as a nation). As for grace, I certainly offer grace; America has been sorely provoked and has taken a defensive position out of fear. That's a tough thing, and my grace abounds -- but grace doesn't change whether an action (or national policy) is wrong or right.

lightshineon -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (6/5/2008 11:51:58 AM)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080605/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/guantanamo_sept11_trial I told you these are a different breed of terrorist, now do you agree, how do you deal with these people?

davemiller7 -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (6/5/2008 4:39:19 PM)
People like him march to a different drum. He believes that it's an honor and his duty to martyr himself for his cause. (Not to mention the 72 virgins waiting for him in his "heaven") This will serve as a rallying cry to his people and we'll probably be in for more suicide bombings, etc., if not something even more horrific. -Dave quote: ORIGINAL: lightshineon http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080605/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/guantanamo_sept11_trial I told you these are a different breed of terrorist, now do you agree, how do you deal with these people?

lightshineon -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (6/6/2008 9:49:55 AM)
It is ridiculious, how many here on CW cry here for these peoples release, saying they will even die for these terrorist freedom from Gitmo. That is so selfish, I am not willing to die for any God but my own, and how arrogant to turn these monsters on our families. Now can the whining stop please from the, Freedom for terrorist group. Freedom for them is death for themselves and others, and like Dave said the 72 virgins.

darren.beene -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (6/6/2008 1:04:01 PM)
All this here points to is what I've done be saying all along. We aint safe from none a them Moslem terrists. So what is us patriottic, God fearin, freedom lovin Amercans to do? I say the only logicle thing is to either put all Moslems in detention camps like we done the Japs in WWII or just kill all the Moslems. Now I reckon some folks wuldn't wont to kill ever single Moslem, sayin they mite be some moderte ones out their that aint as bad as the terrists who is just waitin for the chaince to live out they're haterd of are freedoms and blow us all up. In my way a thinkin even some truely moderte Moslem at some point mite here a talk from some wacko imom nut job an suddenly become a real jihodist and suddently wuld wont to kill all Amercans or Israylis. Or someone who mite talk like a moderte mite secertly be a radicle inside. So why take the chaince? The onley way I see to make us all safe from Moslems is to kill all the Moslems!!!

lightshineon -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (6/9/2008 11:13:42 PM)
Well I guess, fellow conservatives with a little intelligence need to ask darren.beene what to do, since we dumb bunnies, do not want a bomb up the wazoo. darren.beene what shall we do? Please give us your great wisdom. I know just maybe you could give them your home address, in dogpatch, and telephone number, is the number BR549? Let them pay you a friendly visit. What do you think? I sounds good to me, let me know I am sure something could be arranged. How do you get to Dog Patch? Do you go through Hooterville, and petticoat junction first?[sm=pig.gif][sm=pig.gif][sm=pig.gif] quote: ORIGINAL: darren.beene All this here points to is what I've done be saying all along. We aint safe from none a them Moslem terrists. So what is us patriottic, God fearin, freedom lovin Amercans to do? I say the only logicle thing is to either put all Moslems in detention camps like we done the Japs in WWII or just kill all the Moslems. Now I reckon some folks wuldn't wont to kill ever single Moslem, sayin they mite be some moderte ones out their that aint as bad as the terrists who is just waitin for the chaince to live out they're haterd of are freedoms and blow us all up. In my way a thinkin even some truely moderte Moslem at some point mite here a talk from some wacko imom nut job an suddenly become a real jihodist and suddently wuld wont to kill all Amercans or Israylis. Or someone who mite talk like a moderte mite secertly be a radicle inside. So why take the chaince? The onley way I see to make us all safe from Moslems is to kill all the Moslems!!!

davemiller7 -> RE: Failing to protect those who can't protect themselves???????? (6/10/2008 10:10:56 AM)
Grow up! -Dave quote: ORIGINAL: darren.beene All this here points to is what I've done be saying all along. We aint safe from none a them Moslem terrists. So what is us patriottic, God fearin, freedom lovin Amercans to do? I say the only logicle thing is to either put all Moslems in detention camps like we done the Japs in WWII or just kill all the Moslems. Now I reckon some folks wuldn't wont to kill ever single Moslem, sayin they mite be some moderte ones out their that aint as bad as the terrists who is just waitin for the chaince to live out they're haterd of are freedoms and blow us all up. In my way a thinkin even some truely moderte Moslem at some point mite here a talk from some wacko imom nut job an suddenly become a real jihodist and suddently wuld wont to kill all Amercans or Israylis. Or someone who mite talk like a moderte mite secertly be a radicle inside. So why take the chaince? The onley way I see to make us all safe from Moslems is to kill all the Moslems!!!

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3]

Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI