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gmc4Jesus -> Evangelical Manifesto? (5/8/2008 9:56:41 PM)

I am listening to Christian talk radio in Los Angeles as they are discussing the Evangelical Manifesto.

There is much question, and probably a lot of discussion here about whether this is good or bad.

I have observed that many men have written catechisms, creeds, manifestos in attempts to clafiry what God's Word teaches, unify believers around a central somewhat-simlified platform or somehow differentiate one group's uniqueness from another.

I have questions and misgivings about this manifesto and question whether it is going to build the church or only expose an agenda that compromises the truths of Scripture.

Although Jesus prayed in John 17 that His followers would be one, I don't think this manifesto is the right approach to that issue.

The only creed I prefer to follow is Jesus Christ crucified for my sins. The only written document I place my faith and hope in is the Holy Bible, especially the New Testament.

God bless you as we search for that which truly builds His Kingdom on earth.



colliefan -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/8/2008 10:03:38 PM)

Can you provide a link to the story and the contents of the document? I have heard that Dobson refused to sign the document.



Jeff_from_Kentucky -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/8/2008 10:45:22 PM)

I'm an Evangelical Christian and this is the first I have heard of it. What I would like to know is who wrote it? What are their credentials? Where did they get the authority to speak for all Evangelicals?

There are probably some other questions but that is all I can think of off the top of my head.

A link to this would be really nice.



Jeff_from_Kentucky -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/8/2008 10:48:33 PM)

I answered most of my own questions with a simple google search.

http://www.evangelicalmanifesto.com/



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/9/2008 12:21:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky

I answered most of my own questions with a simple google search.

http://www.evangelicalmanifesto.com/


Jeff,
Thank you for covering my back. I was so quick to start a discussion that I forgot to put a link in for others to follow. I first found it on CNN. Os Guiness is supposed to be the author and principle in putting this together.

As I expressed in my opening comments, I am hesitant to be too critical of it, but am also leary of man made catechisms, creeds and manifestos.

God bless you as we search for His truths and apply them to our lives.



HisFish -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/13/2008 12:38:25 AM)

I agree with it.



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/14/2008 12:26:21 AM)

Having had some time to look at the manifesto itself, I have become more aware of what it is about.

Hidden amongst the good sounding stuff is a political agenda to get evangelical Christians to stop being involved in politics. If they can get conservative Christians out of politics, then the liberals, the ACLU (which is not American, Civil, about Libery and which is destroying our Union) will be able to push their anti-God agenda and silence Christians in other areas as well.

Although I prefer to build one another up, I am sounding the alarm and advising Christians to look into this agenda and avoid being seduced out of politics.

God will Bless America only as long as America Blesses God.



Jeff_from_Kentucky -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/14/2008 3:07:41 AM)

I've only had time to glance at it. I'm hoping to study it in detail over the next few days.



JimboFletch -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/14/2008 4:05:10 PM)

Here's a rather long article by Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, entitled Why I am not signing the 'Evangelical Manifesto':


LINK HERE



figmentPez -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/14/2008 5:23:14 PM)

I am deeply troubled by this statement because it, in my opinion, exemplifies the trouble with much of Christianity today, a focus on man instead of on God. Just look at the summary's bullet points: "Our Identity" and "Our Place in Public Life". Our identities as Christians should be defined by who we believe God to be, not what we believe ourselves to be. There are token affirmations of who God is, namely "and therefore to the central axioms of Christian faith expressed in the Trinitarian and Christological consensus of the early church." (pg. 4, full manifesto). While I don't have a problem with talking about Christian identity, and how the Church is supposed to act, I don't believe that such statements should be made apart from a focus on the revealed identity of God. I'll have to read the whole manifesto more carefully to be certain, but what I've read so far shows very little concern for who God is, and no indication that His identity should be the source of our actions. Certainly, it does focus on the spreading of the Gospel, but doesn't get back to the Gospel centering on God and who He is.



HisFish -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/15/2008 12:24:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez

I am deeply troubled by this statement because it, in my opinion, exemplifies the trouble with much of Christianity today, a focus on man instead of on God. Just look at the summary's bullet points: "Our Identity" and "Our Place in Public Life". Our identities as Christians should be defined by who we believe God to be, not what we believe ourselves to be.

i think they affirm who they are in Christ

quote:

Manifesto

1.First, we reaffirm our identity. Evangelicals are Christians who define themselves, their
faith, and their lives according to the Good News of Jesus of Nazareth.


quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez

While I don't have a problem with talking about Christian identity, and how the Church is supposed to act, I don't believe that such statements should be made apart from a focus on the revealed identity of God


again, they did just that on point 1

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmc4jesus

Hidden amongst the good sounding stuff is a political agenda to get evangelical Christians to stop being involved in politics.


where did you see that?. just the opposite is true

quote:

Manifesto

Called to an allegiance higher than party, ideology, economic system, and
nationality, we Evangelicals see it our duty to engage with politics, but our equal duty
never to be completely equated with any party, partisan ideology, or nationality. The
politicization of faith is never a sign of strength but of weakness.



quote:

ORIGINAL: gmc4jesus

I have questions and misgivings about this manifesto and question whether it is going to build the church or only expose an agenda that compromises the truths of Scripture

this should answer that
quote:

Manifesto

We pledge that in a world of lies, hype, and spin, we publish this declaration in
words that, under God, we make our bond. People of the Good News, we desire not just
to speak the Good News but to embody and be good news to our world and to our
generation.



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/15/2008 10:38:36 PM)

Fish,
The following is quoted from the manifesto.

quote:

Christians from both sides of the political spectrum, left as well as right, have made the mistake of politicizing faith; and it would be no improvement to respond to a weakening of the religious right with a rejuvenation of the religious left. Whichever side it comes from, a politicized faith is faithless, foolish, and disastrous for the church – and disastrous first and foremost for Christian reasons rather than constitutional reasons. - page 15

The politicization of faith is never a sign of strength but of weakness. The saying is wise: ¯The first thing to say about politics is that politics is not the first thing. - page 15

We repudiate on one side the partisans of a sacred public square, those who for religious, historical, or cultural reasons would continue to give a preferred place in public life to one religion which in almost all most current cases would be the Christian faith, but could equally be another faith. In a society as religiously diverse as America today, no one faith should be normative for the entire society, yet there should be room for the free expression of faith in the public square. - page 16


While there are several good comments in the manifesto that I personally don't have a problem with, I feel that the portions quoted above are an attempt to disuade Christians from standing up for their faith. (Afterall, we might offend someone).

Our nation was founded as a Christian nation and depends on Christian prinicples in order to function. Our Declaration of Independence, Consitution and Bill of Rights all recognize the God who created the heavens and the earth.

At the same time, our nation and churches have never bared any other religion (including athiesm) to dwell among us. We have never condoned violence towards others but have sought to allow them to see the difference Christ makes in our lives. Now the manifesto comes out suggesting that we should give other faiths an equal footing, as being valid for salvation or whatever, as we do Christianity. I don't feel secure in that statement. When one religion condones the murder of people who are not of that religion, I don't dare want to give equal footing to that kind of disregard for human life and human rights.

While I respect the right of other religions to live here and practice their religious beliefs here, I do not want to give up the United States being a Christian nation. Don't water down my beliefs for fear of offending someone. Jesus didn't worry about offending the priests and religious leaders of His nation, Israel, and it is likewise important for Christians to stand up for our faith where ever we live.

God will bless America only as long as America blesses God.



Ezra -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/16/2008 2:06:49 AM)

I have read through the Manifesto quickly, and it would appear that this committee got off to the wrong start, and missed the mark overall.

quote:

"Evangelicals are Christians who define themselves, their faith, and their lives according to the Good News of Jesus of Nazareth."


The above statement, to be consistent with Bible truth should have said "Evangelicals are Christians who define themselves, their faith, and their lives according to the Gospel -- the Good News of the Lord Jesus Christ, God who became Man to save sinners -- and God's revelation of Christ throughout His holy Word, the Bible".

Why were they afraid or ashamed of the word "Gospel"? "Gospel truth" is part of the English language. Why were they afraid of "the Lord Jesus Christ"? Why were the afraid of mentioning "sinners"?

Paul says that we no longer know Christ "after the flesh". In other words, Jesus is no longer merely "Jesus of Nazareth", but the crucified, resurrected, ascended, exalted, and glorified Lord Jesus Christ who is in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation as the Word of God.

That is why Peter stated on the Day of Pentecost: "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, BOTH LORD AND CHRIST" (Acts 2:36). That this was deliberately omitted from a so-called Evangelical Manifesto speaks volumes. This is the Gospel.

Secondly, Evangelicals cannot define themselves outside of what Scripture reveals. Therefore the omission of Holy Scripture is a glaring omission.

This so-called Manifesto is neither here nor there, and is too wordy. If you want a Manifesto, make it a one-page Manifesto with biblical content. Without Scripture, it is just another human effort. With Scripture, it has power to convict and convince.



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/16/2008 3:01:47 PM)

I've always been wary of man-written documents (including some of my own). We have good intentions, but I'm not God and I don't think you or anyone else, other than Jesus, would qualify to be God or even speak as a final and absolute authority for Him. We simply write or speak from our experiences and observations to the level that we have matured at that time.

Likewise, although we can find good things in this document and many others written by men, there are also those things where we don't come from the same perspective or sometimes violate our understanding of less than essential applications of Scripture. We sometimes make doctrines of division over matters that are of no consequence to God. It only goes to show that we are imperfect persons seeking to become more like the perfect person and trying to teach other imperfect persons how we think it should be done.

I don't want to take away from what the Bible teaches, but simply to recognize that we have to be diligent in seeking the truth on how to interpret Scripture.

From what I have read of this Evangelical Manifesto, I see it as more divisive than uniting.

I just want to be more like Jesus.



sue244 -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/16/2008 4:19:17 PM)

After reading and pondering the Manifesto I've decided that it accurately diagonses the problem in Evangelicalism, but its perscription is more of the same thing that got it to this point. I will add to this later but just wanted to put that out for now.



HisFish -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/16/2008 4:53:33 PM)

Gmc4Jesus, while i must respectfully disagree with you that the manifesto is divisive, im in complete agreement with with what you wrote here
quote:

Our nation was founded as a Christian nation and depends on Christian prinicples in order to function. Our Declaration of Independence, Condition and Bill of Rights all recognize the God who created the heavens and the earth
I do think in some way our constitution was inspired of God and could only function in the hands of a moral people.



figmentPez -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/16/2008 5:21:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisFish

quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez

I am deeply troubled by this statement because it, in my opinion, exemplifies the trouble with much of Christianity today, a focus on man instead of on God. Just look at the summary's bullet points: "Our Identity" and "Our Place in Public Life". Our identities as Christians should be defined by who we believe God to be, not what we believe ourselves to be.

i think they affirm who they are in Christ

quote:

Manifesto

1.First, we reaffirm our identity. Evangelicals are Christians who define themselves, their
faith, and their lives according to the Good News of Jesus of Nazareth.


quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez

While I don't have a problem with talking about Christian identity, and how the Church is supposed to act, I don't believe that such statements should be made apart from a focus on the revealed identity of God


again, they did just that on point 1


No, they didn't. They said nothing about the revelation of God in scripture. They said that they follow "Jesus of Nazareth". However, many many groups claim to follow "jesus christ" but don't. Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, "Oneness Pentecostals", Chrsitiadelphians and many many other cults claim to follow a "jesus christ" but are really proclaiming anti-Christ.

Just saying the word "jesus" doesn't mean that someone is following the true God. Nor does the word "jesus" actually tell us anything about what a group believes about who God is, and who He has revealed Himself to be.

Take a look at some of the earliest creeds, like the Apostle's Creed, the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed. Now those are statements about the revealed nature of God, focused on God. They don't just say "we believe in jee-zhus!", they actually say what is believed about who God has revealed Himself to be.

It means nothing to "affirm who they are in Christ", if they don't affirm who Jesus Christ is.



HisFish -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/16/2008 5:30:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

I have read through the Manifesto quickly, and it would appear that this committee got off to the wrong start, and missed the mark overall.

quote:

"Evangelicals are Christians who define themselves, their faith, and their lives according to the Good News of Jesus of Nazareth."


The above statement, to be consistent with Bible truth should have said "Evangelicals are Christians who define themselves, their faith, and their lives according to the Gospel -- the Good News of the Lord Jesus Christ, God who became Man to save sinners -- and God's revelation of Christ throughout His holy Word, the Bible".

Why were they afraid or ashamed of the word "Gospel"? "Gospel truth" is part of the English language. Why were they afraid of "the Lord Jesus Christ"? Why were the afraid of mentioning "sinners"?


Isnt this part of the manifesto exactly what you claim is missing?
quote:

As followers of Jesus Christ, Evangelicals stress a particular set of beliefs that we
believe are true to the life and teachings of Jesus himself. Taken together, they make us
who we are. We place our emphasis on ...
1. Jesus, fully divine and fully human, as the only full and complete revelation of
God and therefore the only Savior.
2. The death of Jesus on the cross, in which he took the penalty for our sins and
reconciled us to God.
3. Salvation as God’s gift grasped through faith. We contribute nothing to our
salvation.
4. New life in the Holy Spirit, who brings us spiritual rebirth and power to live as
Jesus did, reaching out to the poor, sick, and oppressed.
5. The Bible as God’s Word written, fully trustworthy as our final guide to faith and
practice.
6. The future personal return of Jesus to establish the reign of God.
7. The importance of sharing these beliefs so that others may experience God’s
salvation and may walk in Jesus’ way.


i see nothing withheld out of shame in that statement.
quote:

This so-called Manifesto is neither here nor there,

I dont know about that, it seem's pretty to the point.
quote:

That is why Peter stated on the Day of Pentecost: "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, BOTH LORD AND CHRIST" (Acts 2:36). That this was deliberately omitted from a so-called Evangelical Manifesto speaks volumes. This is the Gospel

again, these 7 points answer that.nothing omitted
quote:

I have read through the Manifesto quickly

i think you did



HisFish -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/16/2008 5:46:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Figmentpez
No, they didn't. They said nothing about the revelation of God in scripture. They said that they follow "Jesus of Nazareth". However, many many groups claim to follow "jesus christ" but don't. Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, "Oneness Pentecostals", Chrsitiadelphians and many many other cults claim to follow a "jesus christ" but are really proclaiming anti-Christ.

Just saying the word "jesus" doesn't mean that someone is following the true God. Nor does the word "jesus" actually tell us anything about what a group believes about who God is, and who He has revealed Himself to be


How did this statement not answer that for you?
quote:

As followers of Jesus Christ, Evangelicals stress a particular set of beliefs that we
believe are true to the life and teachings of Jesus himself. Taken together, they make us
who we are. We place our emphasis on ...
1. Jesus, fully divine and fully human, as the only full and complete revelation of
God and therefore the only Savior.
2. The death of Jesus on the cross, in which he took the penalty for our sins and
reconciled us to God.
3. Salvation as God’s gift grasped through faith. We contribute nothing to our
salvation.
4. New life in the Holy Spirit, who brings us spiritual rebirth and power to live as
Jesus did, reaching out to the poor, sick, and oppressed.
5. The Bible as God’s Word written, fully trustworthy as our final guide to faith and
practice.
6. The future personal return of Jesus to establish the reign of God.
7. The importance of sharing these beliefs so that others may experience God’s
salvation and may walk in Jesus’ way.


did anybody read it??, or did you just skim it?

when you make this statement
quote:

No, they didn't. They said nothing about the revelation of God in scripture

And the manifesto says this
quote:

1. Jesus, fully divine and fully human, as the only full and complete revelation of
God and therefore the only Savior

there is no way you could have read it



figmentPez -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/16/2008 5:55:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisFish

when you make this statement
quote:

No, they didn't. They said nothing about the revelation of God in scripture

And the manifesto says this
quote:

1. Jesus, fully divine and fully human, as the only full and complete revelation of
God and therefore the only Savior

there is no way you could have read it


And that little snippet is not sufficent. "oneness pentecostals" and Mormons both believe that Jesus was fully divine and fully human, but both worship a false idol who is not the God revealed in scripture. The revealed nature of God is much more than this document talks about. Not only that, but even with that token little bit in there, it is still not the FOCUS of the document as it should be.

Yes, Jesus Christ is God revealed in the flesh, however it is not enough just to say "jesus christ" to sum up that revelation. Jesus revealed many things about Himself by becoming incarnate, but just saying His name or even affirming a couple of things about Him is not sufficent to actually talk about all that scripture teaches us about God and who we must believe Him to be.



HisFish -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/16/2008 7:03:28 PM)

quote:


Yes, Jesus Christ is God revealed in the flesh, however it is not enough just to say "jesus christ" to sum up that revelation. Jesus revealed many things about Himself by becoming incarnate, but just saying His name or even affirming a couple of things about Him is not sufficent to actually talk about all that scripture teaches us about God and who we must believe Him to be.


It is a minifesto
quote:

man·i·fes·to . a public declaration of intentions, opinions, objectives, or motives, as one issued by a government, sovereign, or organization.

It is not supposed to be an exhaustive treatise on the word of God, if it were it would be the bible
quote:

And that little snippet is not sufficent

that little snippet is not all that the manifesto contains. I dont believe you would approve of it unless it contained every word from Genesis to revelation, thats ok, you dont have to accept it. If you read the manifesto there is no way your going to think the mormons wrote it, as for oneness pentacostals, there is not one in the group of drafters. look, i have no problem with it, but i have no vested interest in the thing, all i was doing was answering people who said they read it yet made false assertions about it. Please, just read it so you know what it says, and not just what you heard it says (or dosent say)



Ezra -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/17/2008 1:30:30 PM)

The real issue is whether or not Evangelical Christians need a "Manifesto".

The believer's manifesto is the Word of God. If it is not, then there is a serious question as to whether that person is an "Evengelical".

If we wish to present a "manifesto" let us simply hand out the Bible to all and sundry. Let us freely distribute this Divine Manifesto to those who need it.



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/18/2008 11:53:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

The real issue is whether or not Evangelical Christians need a "Manifesto".

The believer's manifesto is the Word of God. If it is not, then there is a serious question as to whether that person is an "Evengelical".

If we wish to present a "manifesto" let us simply hand out the Bible to all and sundry. Let us freely distribute this Divine Manifesto to those who need it.


Ezra, I agree with you. The only written document that I will give my allegiance to is the Bible. All other man made documents (and there are a couple that I do like) are just that - man made.

May we continue to search the Scriptures together and reveal God's truth to God's creation - in Jesus name!



JimboFletch -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/19/2008 9:17:22 AM)

A Manifesto, creed, or statement of faith is never intended as replacements for scripture. They have long been used by the Church summarize core beliefs to help identify both believers and heretics. I think they can serve a useful purpose.



Heavendweller -> RE: Evangelical Manifesto? (5/19/2008 12:34:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

A Manifesto, creed, or statement of faith is never intended as replacements for scripture. They have long been used by the Church summarize core beliefs to help identify both believers and heretics. I think they can serve a useful purpose.

Along this line, don't most churches regardless of denomination, have a "Statement of Faith" which declares and explains what they believe and confess?
For example, while looking for a church, my husband and I will always ask the pastor if they have a written document or a statement of faith, which explicitly states their core beliefs. All churches we have attended within the last 6 months have one. Otherwise, how can we know what that church really believes?

My point is, saying we have the Bible is not enough. How does that body of believers interpret or understand the Word of God, this is the question. If having the Bible were enough, then why do we have all these various denominations and cults? There needs to be an interpretive voice which defines the meaning of Scripture.

Now with that said, I'm not sure what I think about the Manifesto. I think those who drew it up have honorable intentions and want to be associated with a clear identity as to what Evangelicals actually are. Let's face it, it can be a bit confusing to many as to what Evangelicals actually believe in this day and age. Again, I point you to the diversity right here on Crosswalk. [;)]

Heavendweller



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