RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (Full Version)

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drmark -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/12/2008 11:02:05 AM)

quote:

I don't understand why you are posting to this thread.
I'm posting to this thread because the title and initial OP of it is controversial, at best, and heretical, at worst. I feel controversy and heresy both need to be addressed on a Christian forum.

quote:

Do you want to explain how a member of the Church of the Nazarene becomes a child of God?
Church membership should be a result of conversion, not a prerequisite for salvation. Thus, anyone, church member or not, becomes saved by grace, through faith. This is basic Christian doctrine, Eph4_32, is it not?

quote:

Do you want to debate how a person becomes a child of God?
I thought that was the subject of this thread! Please forgive me if I've erred.

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Or did you come here only to needle others for their beliefs?
The only needling I've seen was by URF in post #5. Why didn't you respond to that insult?

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If an entirely sanctified person loves other Christians, does he politely answer their questions?
Common courtesy and good manners dictates politeness in answering others. That is certainly one characteristic of the sanctified life.

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Or are Christians of other denominations not really brothers and sisters in Christ?
I've never once posted this notion on this thread or any other that I can recall. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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I'm trying to understand what your beliefs are.
That's very reassuring to know, Eph4_32. It would be easy for some to think you might be needling me for my beliefs.

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I believe that God changes the heart of a sinner through regeneration by the Holy Spirit.
quote:

I don't believe that a human can make himself/herself a child of God.
These are my beliefs as well, so now you understand them.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/12/2008 12:55:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

I don't understand why you are posting to this thread.
I'm posting to this thread because the title and initial OP of it is controversial, at best, and heretical, at worst. I feel controversy and heresy both need to be addressed on a Christian forum.


The title is not a statement of my doctrine. It is to let people know the topic of the thread. I'm sorry if I messed up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:

Do you want to explain how a member of the Church of the Nazarene becomes a child of God?

Church membership should be a result of conversion, not a prerequisite for salvation. Thus, anyone, church member or not, becomes saved by grace, through faith. This is basic Christian doctrine, Eph4_32, is it not?


I will admit to short-comings in communicating my thoughts. It wouldn't surprise me if experts diagnosed me with a learning disability of some sort. What I meant to ask is, "How does the Church of the Nazarene explain the new birth?" How does your denomination say that it happens? Does a person become a child of God at the moment he or she prays the sinner's prayer? I've never had this explained to me; but I've not spent very much time with any Church of the Nazarene pastors. Do people become children of God before the Wesleyan crisis of entire sanctification?

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:

Do you want to debate how a person becomes a child of God?


I thought that was the subject of this thread! Please forgive me if I've erred.


I don't recall saying anything about debate in the OP. I was trying to learn what people believe, for starters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:

Or did you come here only to needle others for their beliefs?
The only needling I've seen was by URF in post #5. Why didn't you respond to that insult?


I'm dumb! I didn't know it was an insult. Now I see that it could have been.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:

If an entirely sanctified person loves other Christians, does he politely answer their questions?
Common courtesy and good manners dictates politeness in answering others. That is certainly one characteristic of the sanctified life.


This is good to know. Thank you for answering this question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:

Or are Christians of other denominations not really brothers and sisters in Christ?
I've never once posted this notion on this thread or any other that I can recall. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


I didn't say that you had posted that, but I felt some antagonism towards me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:

I'm trying to understand what your beliefs are.
That's very reassuring to know, Eph4_32. It would be easy for some to think you might be needling me for my beliefs.


[&:]

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:

I believe that God changes the heart of a sinner through regeneration by the Holy Spirit.
quote:

I don't believe that a human can make himself/herself a child of God.

These are my beliefs as well, so now you understand them.


When does regeneration take place? Does it take place after a person chooses to follow Christ?



drmark -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/12/2008 2:38:25 PM)

quote:

What I meant to ask is, "How does the Church of the Nazarene explain the new birth?" How does your denomination say that it happens? Does a person become a child of God at the moment he or she prays the sinner's prayer?
I adhere to the Articles of Faith of my denomination. Please read paragraph 12 under Article IX for the answers to your questions.

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Do people become children of God before the Wesleyan crisis of entire sanctification?
Absolutely! Please read the first sentence under paragraph 13 of Article X linked above.

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I didn't say that you had posted that, but I felt some antagonism towards me.
I'm sorry for your feelings of perceived antagonism, Eph4_32, but I have no control over them. I only have control over what I post so it would help our discussion if you would not read certain feelings into my posts. Thanks.

quote:

When does regeneration take place? Does it take place after a person chooses to follow Christ?
Please refer to paragraph 12 which I linked above.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/12/2008 6:39:58 PM)

"12. We believe that justification, regeneration, and adoption are simultaneous in the experience of seekers after God and are obtained upon the condition of faith, preceded by repentance; and that to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness."

This is clearer than what you had told me previously. Thank you.

Can you tell me how a person gets faith that produces justification?



drmark -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/12/2008 6:47:36 PM)

quote:

Can you tell me how a person gets faith that produces justification?
Prevenient grace - paragraph 7 under Article VII. BTW, faith does not produce justification, the Grace of God does that!



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/12/2008 10:11:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
You can beg all you want, John, but every verse you've quoted has some kind of action performed by man: walk, keep, do, step, delight, devise, be, hear, labor, and will. I'm sorry you cannot grasp the concept of Christ doing "for" or "on behalf of" or "in place of" our actions. It is NOT the same as Christ doing in, through, and with our actions. Your concept is a holy little robot, unable to make any choice but automatically following his predestined program. My concept (the Biblical one) is a partnership with a loving God who graciously supplies all our spiritual needs and expects us to make right choices in, through, and with the Love of Christ.


And yours is nothing short of salvation via works... It's not a loving God that rewards one sinner over another for his or her actions, as if they are somehow better... Your concept has God favoring one over another based on deeds.... That's not biblical... Your unbiblical partnership has man on the same level as God...

John
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/12/2008 10:50:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Can you tell me how a person gets faith that produces justification?
Prevenient grace - paragraph 7 under Article VII. BTW, faith does not produce justification, the Grace of God does that!


" 7. We believe that the human race’s creation in Godlikeness included ability to choose between right and wrong, and that thus human beings were made morally responsible; that through the fall of Adam they became depraved so that they cannot now turn and prepare themselves by their own natural strength and works to faith and calling upon God. But we also believe that the grace of God through Jesus Christ is freely bestowed upon all people, enabling all who will to turn from sin to righteousness, believe on Jesus Christ for pardon and cleansing from sin, and follow good works pleasing and acceptable in His sight."

There's something ambiguous about that paragraph. It says that all men are depraved because of the fall. They cannot now turn and prepare themselves by their own natural strength and works to faith and calling upon God. Those who want to turn will be enabled to do so. How can a depraved man want to turn to God? If all men are no longer depraved, God has changed them.

???



drmark -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/13/2008 8:27:39 AM)

quote:

Those who want to turn will be enabled to do so. How can a depraved man want to turn to God?
Nothing at all ambiguous here. You left out the most important point in your synopsis - the grace of God through Jesus Christ is freely bestowed upon all people, enabling all who will to turn from sin to righteousness. That same grace provides free choice to accept or refuse His love. We are not changed until we are saved.



drmark -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/13/2008 8:30:39 AM)

quote:

And yours is nothing short of salvation via works
Well John, it always gets back to your ridiculous and unfounded assertion that faith enabled by the grace of God is somehow a good work in your incorrect theology. We really have nothing further to discuss as long as you hold to this nonsensical position.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/13/2008 12:40:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Those who want to turn will be enabled to do so. How can a depraved man want to turn to God?
Nothing at all ambiguous here. You left out the most important point in your synopsis - the grace of God through Jesus Christ is freely bestowed upon all people, enabling all who will to turn from sin to righteousness. That same grace provides free choice to accept or refuse His love. We are not changed until we are saved.


How can one change if they are not change till they are saved?

John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/13/2008 12:47:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

And yours is nothing short of salvation via works
Well John, it always gets back to your ridiculous and unfounded assertion that faith enabled by the grace of God is somehow a good work in your incorrect theology. We really have nothing further to as long as you hold to this nonsensical position.



I don't need to discuss your salvation via work, just point it out when you post it... You claim God and man must do things in order for salvation to take place and be maintained... Whatever you wish to call that it is your prerogative, but the bottom line is man must do something in order to be saved... That's salvation by works... Christ isn't the Savior in your doctrine; He's simply the Enabler for those who make the right choice... Of course one can never say why one chooses and one doesn't, or that the one that chooses is better than the one that doesn't... But in your doctrine, you can't help but have the person who makes the right choice be something different than the one that didn't... All glory can't be God's if man is the determining factor in salvation...

God chooses His people...

John
1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.



drmark -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/13/2008 2:01:11 PM)

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How can one change if they are not change till they are saved?
How does God's grace work? I have no idea and neither do you! I guess we'll both have to ask Him one day.

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All glory can't be God's if man is the determining factor in salvation...
Well, that's another issue you'll have to discuss with Him, John. I've already got this one figured out!



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/13/2008 8:38:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

How does God's grace work? I have no idea and neither do you! I guess we'll both have to ask Him one day.


Just because you are in the dark on this doesn't mean everyone else is... So please speak for yourself... You can't explain how because your doctrine doesn't account for it.. It ignores man's state of heart and mind and somehow skips to salvation...

quote:

Well, that's another issue you'll have to discuss with Him, John. I've already got this one figured out!


No need to discuss it with Him... God made it clear that all glory is His... That alone shoots your partnership doctrine down. So in reality you haven't figured it out...

John



drmark -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/14/2008 7:25:44 AM)

quote:

Just because you are in the dark on this doesn't mean everyone else is... So please speak for yourself... You can't explain how because your doctrine doesn't account for it.. It ignores man's state of heart and mind and somehow skips to salvation...
By all means, John, please explain to us the inner workings of divine grace. I'm eager to see how you get around Isaiah 55:9.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/14/2008 10:43:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

How can one change if they are not change till they are saved?
How does God's grace work? I have no idea and neither do you! I guess we'll both have to ask Him one day.


How can a denomination say a depraved person has to change first, then God will change that person?



drmark -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/14/2008 10:57:34 AM)

quote:

How can a denomination say a depraved person has to change first, then God will change that person?
That's not what "a denomination" is saying, Eph4_32. Wanting to change is not the same as making the change happen! There are over 20 Scripture references supporting the Biblical reality of prevenient grace in the Articles of Faith I linked in post #28. I'd be happy to find others if desired. On the other hand, if you can explain how God's grace works, please share with us. John hasn't gotten very far with his explanation.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/14/2008 1:00:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

John hasn't gotten very far with his explanation.


Says the person who said they had no idea about it... Talk about irony...

Of course since you said you have no idea how are you going to even consider what I will post? [:D]

I wasn't aware the clock was ticking...lol

John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/14/2008 1:02:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

How can one change if they are not change till they are saved?
How does God's grace work? I have no idea and neither do you! I guess we'll both have to ask Him one day.


How can a denomination say a depraved person has to change first, then God will change that person?


You will not get a straight answer to this... This where the bus always stops... They have man change, and then for no reason God changes them... What's the point of being made a new creature, getting a new heart and the Spirit of God, if man can simply change himself... It's pointless...

John



drmark -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/14/2008 1:06:39 PM)

quote:

You will not get a straight answer to this... This where the bus always stops... They have man change, and then for no reason God changes them...
Wanting to change is not the same as making the change happen! Of course, this simple statement of fact will never be a straight answer to anyone whose man-made theology denies free will!



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/14/2008 3:35:54 PM)

How does a depraved person create the desire in himself to want to change? The mere fact of wanting to change is a change in itself. A depraved individual has a depraved heart. A depraved heart doesn't want to please God.

Jeremiah 17
9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

How do we get from Point A to Point B?

Point A Romans 3
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Point B John 9
38And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.



drmark -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/14/2008 5:49:32 PM)

quote:

How does a depraved person create the desire in himself to want to change? The mere fact of wanting to change is a change in itself. A depraved individual has a depraved heart. A depraved heart doesn't want to please God.
Yes indeed, Eph4_32, isn't prevenient grace amazing! Praise God for His loving kindness even to depraved sinners!



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/14/2008 6:54:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

How does a depraved person create the desire in himself to want to change? The mere fact of wanting to change is a change in itself. A depraved individual has a depraved heart. A depraved heart doesn't want to please God.
Yes indeed, Eph4_32, isn't prevenient grace amazing! Praise God for His loving kindness even to depraved sinners!


So, does this prevenient grace of which you speak, change a person's heart and cause that person to want to please God?



drmark -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/14/2008 11:30:27 PM)

quote:

So, does this prevenient grace of which you speak, change a person's heart and cause that person to want to please God?
I've already admitted that I have no idea how God's grace actually works. I do know that God's grace gives us a free will to respond to Him but it seems unlikely that He causes a sinner "to want to please Him", as you put it. Otherwise, would not all sinners be saved - 2 Peter 3:9b?



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/14/2008 11:40:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

Wanting to change is not the same as making the change happen!


Man cannot make the change happen... It's beyond the ability of man to change himself and understand things of the Spriit...

This is where God's grace comes in... Being that its unmerited favor God betows on whom He chooses and it's not given to those who attempt to make themselves worthy(your doctrine)... Its not the man who runs or wills, but who God chooses to show mercy too... Paul stresses that point when he speaks of his personal labor and then discounts it with the statement of;yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Clearly stated in the following....

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Reiterated again...

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


quote:


Of course, this simple statement of fact will never be a straight answer to anyone whose man-made theology denies free will!


A fact that has nothing to do with the matter at hand... Your doctrine falls short. I doesn't account for man's dead in sin state prior to salvation. Man doesn't wake up one day and go, "Gee I think I am going to love God and make myself worthy of salvation..."

Man is raised from the dead, he doesn't wake himself up and understand...

Colossians 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

As for "free will", it doesn't enable man to understand things of the Spirit. All the collective free will of mankind cannot give one person even a sneak peak of that which is spiritual.

Man must be changed to understand...

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:6-8 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Again... They that are in the flesh cannot please God...

John
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Making Yourself a Child of God (5/15/2008 12:07:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

I do know that God's grace gives us a free will to respond to Him


Doesn't work... Free will doesn't grant understanding of things of the Spirit... Natural man cannot understand things of the Spirit...

quote:

but it seems unlikely that He causes a sinner "to want to please Him", as you put it.


Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

quote:


Otherwise, would not all sinners be saved - 2 Peter 3:9b?



2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Peter isn't referring to just anyone, but a specific group...

John



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