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Well the rub of it is... how many of the people in this thread claiming evolution and science ultimately lead to racist conclusions or immorality have honestly examined all the results of their belief system? They will decry evolution as evil, then ignore all the abortion clinic bombings, all the christian terrorism thats occurred throughout the world, and on and on. But those people just weren't really Christian... but Hitler was an evolutionist by God!! It's unfathomable to me and one of the most aggravating things I have ever seen.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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Well the rub of it is... how many of the people in this thread claiming evolution and science ultimately lead to racist conclusions or immorality have honestly examined all the results of their belief system? They will decry evolution as evil, then ignore all the abortion clinic bombings, all the christian terrorism thats occurred throughout the world, and on and on. But those people just weren't really Christian... but Hitler was an evolutionist by God!! It's unfathomable to me and one of the most aggravating things I have ever seen.

Well, feel free to fill us in; what is the total number of abortion clinic bombings, and how may people have died as the result of 'Christian' terrorism?

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Well, feel free to fill us in; what is the total number of abortion clinic bombings, and how may people have died as the result of 'Christian' terrorism?

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

Well, feel free to fill us in; what is the total number of abortion clinic bombings, and how may people have died as the result of 'Christian' terrorism?

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
You do realize that the primary ideas that inform racism arose during the supposed 'Enlightenment'?

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But not as a direct result of Enlightenment logic, nor as a direct result of the theory of evolution.

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You still haven't addressed my counter to your argument; I guess that says it all.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
The fact that there are violent religious sects which associate themselves with Christianity doesn't 'counter' the notion that evolution has influenced acceptance of racism, eugenics and atheism.

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No, it proves that people are people and that some of them will distort and ruin anything they can get their filthy little paws on. If proves that it doesn't matter if racism and eugenics are at all influenced by evolution, because the same things have been influenced by religion. It proves that it's not the influence that matters, but that the people who have the idea will take any influence they can to justify it.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
There is no such thing as 'Enlightenment logic'

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The fact that there are violent religious sects which associate themselves with Christianity doesn't 'counter' the notion that evolution has influenced acceptance of racism, eugenics and atheism.

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Bad choice of words. What I was refering to was the emphasis of reason over religious doctrine. You implied that racism was a direct result of the Enlightenment (don't tell me you didn't). You don't seem to be arguing very hard against a reversal back to the Dark Ages wherein church doctrine dictated logic

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
Nothing I have said suggests I think we should subject science (or religious thought, for that matter) to a monolithic, autocratic, centralized religious organization.

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Yes, you did (at last we get back on track!):
"science should be never be used as the primary basis for social, civil, or political understanding."
If we never use science to help settle a crucial issue such as racism, then there is no basis to fight the notion. We may as well carry on as if there really are higher and lower subspecies of humans because we disregard the scientific evidence to the contrary.

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We could also disregard any scientific findings about pregnancy (there goes many of the pro-life photos/data), nutrition, medicine, global warming . . . oh, wait-- that's right. We are already ignore the scientific evidence regarding global warming because we would rather attack Al Gore's character.
Or , in this thread, we can just attack Darwin's character, or Watson's character, ad hominem ad infinitum . . .

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
I don't know what sort of English you studied, but that statement doesn't say such a basis should be 'religious', or that another basis should be 'primary'.

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And as MLK showed us, there are a number of basis by which we can battle racism.

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I never said we should 'disregard science', merely that there are always other considerations which must play a substantive part in our decisions and policies.

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Please read more carefully in the future.

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I don't know whose posts you are reading. I didn't say "religious" or "primary."

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Why should we battle racism as long as we ignore the scientific evidence against it?

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You said that it should never be a primary basis for social, civil, or political understanding, when in fact there times when it should be primary.

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Oh, that's not possible for someone of my obvious language deficiency . . .

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

The question I am concerned about it is, “Should we encourage racism if the science supports it?”

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How would that even be possible? A study that demonstrates an IQ gap between Kanakaks and Uighirs supports the idea that there is an IQ gap between those two peoples.

The same goes for a height gap, or a melanin gap, or a difference in the average value of quantity X between two groups.

Even if this gap were strongly suggested to be genetic or biological, this would not support the idea that one group is inferior, or that one group is a natural slave race, or that one group should be ostracized, or that prejudice against that group would be justified.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
The question I am concerned about it is, “Should we encourage racism if the science supports it?”

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It should never be primary, because science is always changing

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If you argue that science should be primary today because the current findings are antagonistic to racism, and tomorrow research indicates a fundamental difference between races, then by your logic, tomorrow racism is justified.

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Perhaps not, but others will tell you I am an optimist.

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But it doesn't support it. If something changes in the future, then this will be an issue.

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But history has shown us the opposite: before science chimed in, racism was justified by philosophy, religion, law, and just about every other standard we could list.
Look at things for what they are, not for what they could have been.

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Sorry, but my deficient language skills bar me from understanding a big word like "optimist" . . .
Perhaps you should address me at the primer level of which you indicated I am constrained.

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Well, feel free to fill us in; what is the total number of abortion clinic bombings, and how may people have died as the result of 'Christian' terrorism?

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Does this include the Spanish Inquisition, and (later) the invasion of Mexico which led to thousands of natives being slaughtered by a people who saw them as inferior - not mention, loaded with gold?

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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Does this include the Spanish Inquisition, and (later) the invasion of Mexico which led to thousands of natives being slaughtered by a people who saw them as inferior - not mention, loaded with gold?

So are you claiming Spaniards were unusually violent people

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, as has been noted it has supported it in the past

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and some scientists consider it valid now

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Racism was based on the popular notions of naturalism in the last few centuries; that was as muh science as Darwin's theory.

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Well, you'll just have to try your best to keep up.

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I think this is rather skirting the point.

Evolution theory has proved that there is no difference between black humans and white humans, that we are all human. Sure, evolution theory has been wrongly used to backup racism. But before ToE, white man went around saying, hmm, like me but black = inferior.

Evolution theory does not in any way support racism. On the contrary, evolution theory has taught us that racism cannot be justified.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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I think this is rather skirting the point.

Evolution theory has proved that there is no difference between black humans and white humans, that we are all human. Sure, evolution theory has been wrongly used to backup racism. But before ToE, white man went around saying, hmm, like me but black = inferior.

Evolution theory does not in any way support racism. On the contrary, evolution theory has taught us that racism cannot be justified.

Well, it is apparent some evolutionists, like Watson, still haven't got the message.