Which Ten Commandments? (Full Version)

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McFatty -> Which Ten Commandments? (5/6/2008 4:55:55 AM)

Why have the "ten commandments" shown in Exodus 20 become the culturally accepted "official" ten commandments, when the Bible says that the commandments written in Exodus 34 are the Ten Commandments written on the tablets? Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the matter.

" Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments." - Exodus 34:27-28



mcleod -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/7/2008 8:31:40 AM)

I was wondering if you missed the part when Moses came down the first time from the mountian and smashed the tablets. The one God wrote with his finger?



McFatty -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/7/2008 9:39:20 AM)

Wow... no I didn't miss that part. Exodus 34 says the words written on the new tablets were the same as the ones on the old tablets.



LBolt -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/7/2008 9:44:35 AM)

This is a pretty tough one! Maybe it's because of precedence. [8|]

Since it was first mentioned in Exo. 20.

What are your thoughts?



Lurker -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/7/2008 9:51:37 AM)

It's just how you number them. There's 14 imperative statements and they're traditionally grouped together in two different ways.
Jews, Catholics,Eastern Orthodox, and even Martin Luther felt that the phrase "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." as part of the same statement. At the time the commandments were given, idolatry and polytheism went hand in hand. If one takes this as a single commandment then, the rest are as normal except that coveting your neighbor's possessions and his wife are now considered two separate commandments.

Many Protestant churches however use the alternative numbering system and separate the statements for having no other gods and not making graven images into two separate commandments. They then typically combine the coveting your neighbor's wife and coveting his possessions into one commandment.

A Catholic point of view on why the Catholics use the first style of numbering can be found here: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403fea3.asp

Hope this helps clarify things.



Doc65 -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/8/2008 7:21:29 PM)

To further clarify (or possibly muddy them) things, they aren't the "10 Commandments" for Jews, it's the "10 Words"...



McFatty -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/9/2008 1:26:26 AM)

I've looked at the official versions of the 10 commandments for Catholics, etc. The only problem I have is that the ones that are called "The Ten Commandments" in the Bible aren't the ones which are official or recognized. It kinda bothers me a bit, in truth.



SinnerSaved -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/9/2008 4:53:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

I've looked at the official versions of the 10 commandments for Catholics, etc. The only problem I have is that the ones that are called "The Ten Commandments" in the Bible aren't the ones which are official or recognized. It kinda bothers me a bit, in truth.


You and me both, McFatty.



Lurker -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/9/2008 9:28:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

I've looked at the official versions of the 10 commandments for Catholics, etc. The only problem I have is that the ones that are called "The Ten Commandments" in the Bible aren't the ones which are official or recognized. It kinda bothers me a bit, in truth.


What makes one set "official" in your mind?



McFatty -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/9/2008 10:21:00 AM)

The ones I call "official" are the ones deemed official by the Catholic and Orthodox churches, the ones featured in the Cecil B DeMille films, and the ones children are asked to memorize in Sunday School. They're the ones which have been removed from the courthouses and the ones sold on cards in Christian stores. The ones everyone knows are not called "The Ten Commandments" in the Bible. The Ten Commandments are clearly marked in Exodus 34, unless I'm missing something.



LBolt -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/9/2008 11:10:01 AM)

What's the difference? Aren't they the same? Exo. 20, Exo. 34, the one mention in Deuteronomy?

Exodus 34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

It's the same commandments! You see what I'm saying?



McFatty -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/9/2008 11:22:20 AM)

The lists are two completely different lists... one of them has to be The Ten Commandments, as mentioned in 34. Read the entirety of 34.



LBolt -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/9/2008 11:50:30 AM)

They are the same. God didn't just flip-flop, IMHO.



McFatty -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/9/2008 3:11:29 PM)

So after reading the entirety of Exodus 20 and Exodus 34, you don't see a single difference between the two lists? Do I need to post both lists up here?

I'm not saying God flip-flopped. I'm saying that the list in Exodus 20 was never meant to be called the Ten Commandments.



Bluethread -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/9/2008 4:20:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

So after reading the entirety of Exodus 20 and Exodus 34, you don't see a single difference between the two lists? Do I need to post both lists up here?

I'm not saying God flip-flopped. I'm saying that the list in Exodus 20 was never meant to be called the Ten Commandments.


I do not believe this is correct as (Moshe)Moses says, (Deut 10:4)
"And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments(words), which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me."

Now as to how to divid the passage in Exodus 20. The Scriptures do not indicate. The rabbis call (verse 2)"I am ADONAI your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the abode of slavery." the first word. This is not a commandment but a declarative statement.

Just a point of clarification, I do not believe there is one set of commandments "for the Jews", one "for the catholics", one "for the protestants". etc. Now we may differ on our interpretation of them or how they should be arranged but there is only one set of commandments.

That said, I don't think it is that important how we number them as long as we observe them. Now, if someone is using their grouping as ajustification for their interpretation, then the enumeration would be significant.



Lapidoth -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/9/2008 4:29:45 PM)

The first giving of the Commandments was by mouth.

God gave them to the Israelites and those with them Himself.
Then Moses went up on the mountain and received the Commandments on tablets.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/10/2008 8:59:03 AM)

Okay, maybe I should just look this up, but I thought the only difference between the two lists had to do with the fourth commandment--the reason given for the Sabbath rest. I thought the rest were the same. [&:]



McFatty -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/10/2008 11:20:11 AM)

Here are the two passages from the Bible.

Exodus 20:1-18

Then God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you. You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor." All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance.


Exodus 34:1-28

Now the LORD said to Moses, "Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered. So be ready by morning, and come up in the morning to Mount Sinai, and present yourself there to Me on the top of the mountain. No man is to come up with you, nor let any man be seen anywhere on the mountain; even the flocks and the herds may not graze in front of that mountain." So he cut out two stone tablets like the former ones, and Moses rose up early in the morning and went up to Mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and he took two stone tablets in his hand. The LORD descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the LORD. Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave {the guilty} unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations." Moses made haste to bow low toward the earth and worship. He said, "If now I have found favor in Your sight, O Lord, I pray, let the Lord go along in our midst, even though the people are so obstinate, and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us as Your own possession." Then God said, "Behold, I am going to make a covenant. Before all your people I will perform miracles which have not been produced in all the earth nor among any of the nations; and all the people among whom you live will see the working of the LORD, for it is a fearful thing that I am going to perform with you. Be sure to observe what I am commanding you this day: behold, I am going to drive out the Amorite before you, and the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite. Watch yourself that you make no covenant with the inhabitants of the land into which you are going, or it will become a snare in your midst. But rather, you are to tear down their altars and smash their {sacred} pillars and cut down their Asherim --for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God-- otherwise you might make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land and they would play the harlot with their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and someone might invite you to eat of his sacrifice, and you might take some of his daughters for your sons, and his daughters might play the harlot with their gods and cause your sons also to play the harlot with their gods. You shall make for yourself no molten gods. You shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days you are to eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in the month of Abib you came out of Egypt. The first offspring from every womb belongs to Me, and all your male livestock, the first offspring from cattle and sheep. You shall redeem with a lamb the first offspring from a donkey; and if you do not redeem {it,} then you shall break its neck. You shall redeem all the firstborn of your sons. None shall appear before Me empty-handed. You shall work six days, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during plowing time and harvest you shall rest. You shall celebrate the Feast of Weeks, that is, the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year. Three times a year all your males are to appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel. For I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your borders, and no man shall covet your land when you go up three times a year to appear before the LORD your God. You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leavened bread, nor is the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover to be left over until morning. You shall bring the very first of the first fruits of your soil into the house of the LORD your God. "You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk." Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.


We know from 34:1 that the words on the second set of tablets are the same as the words on the first set of tablets, the words shown in Exodus 34.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/11/2008 12:26:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

Why have the "ten commandments" shown in Exodus 20 become the culturally accepted "official" ten commandments, when the Bible says that the commandments written in Exodus 34 are the Ten Commandments written on the tablets? Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the matter.

" Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments." - Exodus 34:27-28



Greetings,

You left out the key...

the key is in verse 1 ....The Lord said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

God himself carved out the first stones, the second ones God made Moses do the work

When Moses came down the first time the Israelites were worshipping another God, which is written in the very first commandment, that they should not. So the breaking of the first stones annulled all that was written after it,

Therefore when the Lord said to Moses ....”Which you broke” ….this is a picture of all the commandments being broken because of the first commandment being broken…. saying that they shall not worship other Gods before the Lord.

Now this could be viewed as the first covenant as being established in fault, the breaking of the stone tablets resulted in a portion of the people being killed, because the first was not faultless,

So the LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets ….like the first ones, .and is a picture of the second covenant, which was veiled by the enactments of Moses.




LG



McFatty -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/11/2008 12:47:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

Why have the "ten commandments" shown in Exodus 20 become the culturally accepted "official" ten commandments, when the Bible says that the commandments written in Exodus 34 are the Ten Commandments written on the tablets? Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the matter.

" Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments." - Exodus 34:27-28



Greetings,

You left out the key...

the key is in verse 1 ....The Lord said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

God himself carved out the first stones, the second ones God made Moses do the work

When Moses came down the first time the Israelites were worshipping another God, which is written in the very first commandment, that they should not. So the breaking of the first stones annulled all that was written after it,

Therefore when the Lord said to Moses ....”Which you broke” ….this is a picture of all the commandments being broken because of the first commandment being broken…. saying that they shall not worship other Gods before the Lord.

Now this could be viewed as the first covenant as being established in fault, the breaking of the stone tablets resulted in a portion of the people being killed, because the first was not faultless,

So the LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets ….like the first ones, .and is a picture of the second covenant, which was veiled by the enactments of Moses.




LG


The NASB puts the verse like this...

"Now the LORD said to Moses, "Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered."


Looking at the Hebrew, this is the exact same structure as the original writing. This indicates that both sets of tablets had the same words. I'm simply trying to decipher which Commandments were the ones kept within the Ark and held so dearly by ancient Israel. The Bible seems to point to the ones in Exodus 34.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/11/2008 10:12:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

Why have the "ten commandments" shown in Exodus 20 become the culturally accepted "official" ten commandments, when the Bible says that the commandments written in Exodus 34 are the Ten Commandments written on the tablets? Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the matter.

" Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments." - Exodus 34:27-28



Greetings,

You left out the key...

the key is in verse 1 ....The Lord said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

God himself carved out the first stones, the second ones God made Moses do the work

When Moses came down the first time the Israelites were worshipping another God, which is written in the very first commandment, that they should not. So the breaking of the first stones annulled all that was written after it,

Therefore when the Lord said to Moses ....”Which you broke” ….this is a picture of all the commandments being broken because of the first commandment being broken…. saying that they shall not worship other Gods before the Lord.

Now this could be viewed as the first covenant as being established in fault, the breaking of the stone tablets resulted in a portion of the people being killed, because the first was not faultless,

So the LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets ….like the first ones, .and is a picture of the second covenant, which was veiled by the enactments of Moses.




LG


The NASB puts the verse like this...

"Now the LORD said to Moses, "Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered."


Looking at the Hebrew, this is the exact same structure as the original writing. This indicates that both sets of tablets had the same words. I'm simply trying to decipher which Commandments were the ones kept within the Ark and held so dearly by ancient Israel. The Bible seems to point to the ones in Exodus 34.



Greetings,

quote:

I'm simply trying to decipher which Commandments were the ones kept within the Ark and held so dearly by ancient Israel.



When the second set of tablets were cut the covenant was revealed in v10 of Ex 34, ....
God by commanding Moses that the second set being like the first....
that coins the phrase the OT concealed... and the NT revealed,
we read in Ex 34:8-11
Now the ones kept in Ark under guard were the second set, because there are 2 witnesses necessary to establish anything,

The first set was witnessed by Moses and God, and the second was to be witnessed in front of all your people....... = the third witness

Jesus hit on this covenant principal in reiteration to the first, but in the second it reads as
19 Again I say to you that if “two of you agree on earth” concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.
(which is seen in Ex34:11—as to what the Father will do… is written......in Ex 34...Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee ) ……..
Therefore if two of you agree on earth concerning “anything” that they ask,… ""it will be done""

………20 For where two (the first set) or three = (the second set ...=in front of all your people)
………are gathered together in My name,
I am there in the midst of them."
But that is a different covenant subject...because the one in Ex 34, the stipulation in v11 was to...Observe what I am ordering you to do "today", by covenant.
..........In Christ that agreement is ""already done"" by the Father, by that very same principal.



To continue...

8 At once Moshe bowed his head to the ground, prostrated himself
9 and said, "If I have now found favor in your view, Adonai, then please let Adonai go with us, even though they are a stiffnecked people; and pardon our offenses and our sin; and take us as your possession."


And here in v 9-10 we have God answering Moses intersession because of his humbleness, in bold above.
...on behalf of the stiff necks...he included himself.

10 He said, "Here, I am making a covenant; ……in front of all your people I will do wonders such as have not been created anywhere on earth or in any nation. All the people around you will see the work of ADONAI. What I am going to do through you will be awesome! 11 Observe what I am ordering you to do today.



So doesn’t seem to matter which set was in the Ark,
The point is in the contexts of the covenant, in which the commandments were given,

In the first set God cut and gave Moses the tablets written by His Own finger,
In the second Moses went up again and met God with the tablets God commanded him to cut, which were like the first, .....Together this =equals= a covenant, …….as the scripture said in........v10 He said, "Here, I am making a covenant;



quote:

which Commandments were the ones kept within the Ark

Both sets contained the same commands... written by the same finger.,

The second set concealed in the Ark of the tabernacle (Temple) is where God came down and rested between the Cherubim in the Holy of Holies



But

That’s the best of my notes gathered at the moment, in answer to the question...



LG



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/11/2008 10:55:19 PM)

There are ten "words" or "things" written on the tablets, and the second set of two tablets was the same as the first, upon which were written:
1. I am the L-rd your G-d
2. Have no other gods
3. Don't take my Name in vain
4. Remember the Sabbath day
5. Honor your parents
6. No killing
7. No adultery
8. No stealing
9. No witnessing falsely
10. No coveting.
Both tablets the same, according to the Word written in the 34th chapter, as mentioned above.

During the time Moses was on the mountain originally, G-d taught him all the Torah. The people said they would accept it but proved that their hearts were not all committed. When Moses returned to the mountain for the second set of tablets, once again, G-d taught him the Torah, and in chapter 34, the most pertinent commands were reitterated, as were those things that were the most egregious to Adonai. This was what we, today, would call accellerated learning, because G-d was making these things very clear to Moses, so that he could make them very clear to the Israel and those who had come out of Egypt with them, all of whom said they would obey.

G-d confirmed their inheritance first. (Check out Suzeraine covenants, and this may help you to understand this, although I am not sure I remembered the spelling correctly.) Then G-d told them first the main things the people were to remember, much like the people were told in Acts 15 (I think it was) the main things they should remember, then the rest would be taught on top of these, also as in Acts 15 (I think it was).

Those main things G-d gave as important included:
* There is one G-d and one only, so act like it in your worship and your response to false gods. Furthermore, stop making your own fake gods.
* Do the Feast of Unleavened Bread for 7 days and all the other feasts that require you to make the trek to Jerusalem.
* Every first-born is Mine.
* Keep the Sabbath.
* Make my offerings as I commanded you, not adding to them or taking away from them, and don't follow the practices of the Egyptians.

Then G-d told Moses to write out everything he had learned, so that the people would have the words to follow.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/12/2008 8:42:23 AM)

The second list of the Ten Commandments is in Duet. 5. The list in Exodus 34 isn't the Ten Commandments.

In the list in Deuterononomy, everything is identical except the fourth commandment.



McFatty -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/12/2008 10:56:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

The second list of the Ten Commandments is in Duet. 5. The list in Exodus 34 isn't the Ten Commandments.

In the list in Deuterononomy, everything is identical except the fourth commandment.


Why do you say Ex 34 isn't the Ten Commandments when that's what it says? Just wondering...



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Which Ten Commandments? (5/12/2008 11:19:58 AM)

Because the Bible does not say that the words written in the 34th are the Ten! Read it again, McFatty!

The Ten are the index or the introduction to the Words of the Torah. The Ten are the short list of what is written afterward. The Ten say it quickly, then the details are spelled out, so that we can understand how to carry out the Ten.

In chapter 34, G-d tells Moses what is most important, so that these can be learned first, then the rest of the things are spelled out for them to learn.



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