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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/8/2008 12:39:48 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1269
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I never made any serious accusations.
Edited to remove reference to a post that has been removed by mod for TOS violations
Nevertheless, you have made some accusations, such as not being led the Spirit, and you still continue to fail to provide biblical support for your accusations! If you're going to do this, at least have the decency to back it up with Scripture.
quote:
You probably think i'm some heathen as well
No, I don't! I think you're a fellow brother/sister (sorry again, but you never did clarify, so I have to continue being inclusive) who is desperately judgmental on certain issues that are not worth condemning one another over! And I love you, and I love God's truth, so I hate seeing this happen!
I am not trying to argue you into listening to any genre of music. I recognize that the Holy Spirit is working in your heart to convict you against metal and screamo, and I applaud your integrity demonstrated in abstaining from those genres! I encourage you to maintain that strength as long as the Lord continues to lay that conviction on your heart, however long that happens to be. If it's the rest of your life, then so be it! I rejoice, because I know it's for your own good, and God's own glory.
What I am trying to get across is that your attitude may be a discouragement to other believers who receive genuine, godly encouragement from Christian performers in those genres. Assuming they are not similarly convicted as you are, then by declaring to them that these types of music are universally evil, you will do one of two things - 1, you will discourage them from listening to these songs, and in so doing, deprive them of godly musical encouragement. Or 2, you will cause them to look down on you for being, in their eyes, narrow-minded, and thus cause division in the body. Perhaps there are other outcomes, but I can't of them at the moment. Either way, I certainly see no positive outcome from imposing personal convictions over disputable matters onto others who do not share those convictions.
quote:
Do you expect me to believe every other person's opinion?
No, but I do expect you to defend your own using more than Christian-ese name-calling. Show me the Scripture you base your convictions on.
*also edited to make things flow a bit better... And to add an "e" to "one" in that second part there*
< Message edited by MrFribbles -- 6/8/2008 2:26:44 AM >
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/8/2008 2:43:48 AM
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glimmerinthedark
Posts: 82
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I'll say this one last time. I was led by the Spirit out of a sin. Just because the Bible doesn't go into detail naming every little sin that could ever be commited, doesn't mean that a certain thing can't be a sin. Christians are led and sanctified by the Spirit. If it was revealed to me that a certain thing I was listening to or doing was wrong, then I am not to go back to it. If I go about trying to justify and find an excuse for things that I now know to be wrong, then I am being led by the flesh. I used to smoke as well. Just because it is not mentioned in the Bible, doesn't mean it's not a sin. The Spirit reveals to us the sins which are not specifically named in the Bible.
If you keep asking me to show you where it is mentioned in the Bible that smoking or drinking is a sin, then I will keep asking you where it says that it is not a sin? If you are not 100% sure that they are not sins, then you are messing with fire if you attempt to defend it. I'll give you my humble opinion on what you should do. On matters like these, we can only take them up to God. I already told what the Spirit revealed to me, so take it up to God and see what He reveals to you. However, until he gives you a definite "yes" or "no", don't take things into your own hands. It's not like smoking or drinking is required, so i'm sure that abstaining from them won't be a problem for a Christian. At least, until God gives you an answer.
I'll give you an analogy. Say i'm a little boy playing around with a stick of dynamite. To me it seems harmless since I have never seen, read, or heard anything about it before, and assume it's nothing dangerous. However, I decide go to my father and ask him exactly what it is (since he knows better). The smart thing to do, would be to wait until I got to him to see what he has to say, before I would do anything with it. I am a bit foolish though, and on my way to my father, I decide to take matters into my own hands. I take out a lighter that I found somewhere along the road. I light the dynamite just to see what happens. Little do I know that I am about to cause my own destruction.
Jesus said to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Not laid back, and taking matters into our own hands.
I apologize for being a bit harsh in my other response. I hope you can forgive me.
God bless.
< Message edited by glimmerinthedark -- 6/8/2008 4:02:54 AM >
_____________________________
Good works are the byproducts of salvation. Not the other way around.
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/8/2008 2:56:33 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2206
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I was led INTO Christian heavy metal by the Spirit. . .
How about that?
One of us must be wrong.
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love.ben
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/8/2008 3:05:38 AM
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glimmerinthedark
Posts: 82
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I was led INTO Christian heavy metal by the Spirit. . .
How about that?
One of us must be wrong.
Check out Todd Bentley. Tell me if you think that he is truly led by the Spirit. He's led by a spirit alright, but the wrong one. He's supposedly some type of metal head. I'll let you come to your own conclusion. If you were led INTO metal, then i'm assuming it's by the same types of spirits that led Todd Bentley to whatever he does.
< Message edited by glimmerinthedark -- 6/8/2008 3:29:14 AM >
_____________________________
Good works are the byproducts of salvation. Not the other way around.
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/8/2008 3:16:43 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2206
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quote:
ORIGINAL: glimmerinthedark
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I was led INTO Christian heavy metal by the Spirit. . .
How about that?
One of us must be wrong.
Check out Todd Bentley. Tell me if you think that he is truly led by the Spirit. He's led by a spirit alright, but the wrong one. He's supposedly some type of metal head. I'll let you come to your own conclusion. If you were led INTO metal, then i'm assuming it's by the same spirit that led Todd Bentley to whatever he does.
Except if you go over to the Lakeland Revival thread, you will see me call out Todd Bentley and his heresies. . .
And if Todd likes metal, that doesn't automatically make metal evil. . . That would be a pretty faulty conclusion.
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love.ben
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/8/2008 3:31:16 AM
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glimmerinthedark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Except if you go over to the Lakeland Revival thread, you will see me call out Todd Bentley and his heresies. . .
And if Todd likes metal, that doesn't automatically make metal evil. . . That would be a pretty faulty conclusion.
Do you even know how metal came about? It was dedicated satanic music. You can't take something satanic and sugar coat it with a Christian title. It's like taking poison, and putting whipped cream on it. It may look good because of the topping, but it still kills. Christian metal branched off from the metal genre. It's just a branch from the same tree. Bad trees can't produce good fruits.
< Message edited by glimmerinthedark -- 6/8/2008 4:37:17 AM >
_____________________________
Good works are the byproducts of salvation. Not the other way around.
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/8/2008 9:07:36 AM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11192
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
You can't take something satanic and sugar coat it with a Christian title. It's like taking poison, and putting whipped cream on it. It may look good because of the topping, but it still kills.
Do you celebrate Christmas? What about Easter?
Just checking.
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Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/8/2008 10:29:37 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2206
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quote:
ORIGINAL: glimmerinthedark
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Except if you go over to the Lakeland Revival thread, you will see me call out Todd Bentley and his heresies. . .
And if Todd likes metal, that doesn't automatically make metal evil. . . That would be a pretty faulty conclusion.
Do you even know how metal came about? It was dedicated satanic music. You can't take something satanic and sugar coat it with a Christian title. It's like taking poison, and putting whipped cream on it. It may look good because of the topping, but it still kills. Christian metal branched off from the metal genre. It's just a branch from the same tree. Bad trees can't produce good fruits.
What Tricia said.
Along with that, how do you know that it wasn't, I dunno, God that created metal music, and satanists who corrupted it?
How can you sit there and say that a certain way to play a guitar with high distortion and drumming using a double kick instantly mars me a vessel of the dark one?
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love.ben
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/8/2008 10:56:50 AM
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Qtman
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Wow my dad died in 1974. I am not one to believe in reincarnation but I am beginning to wonder. I have read the same arguments here he used against country, pop, rock and every other kind of music that was not in the red back hymnal.
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Don't take life here to seriously. No one gets out alive.
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/8/2008 11:20:47 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11539
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quote:
On matters like these, we can only take them up to God. I already told what the Spirit revealed to me, so take it up to God and see what He reveals to you.
That seems to be the problem here.
As frequently happens when a person come to Christ, you were convicted to give up certain things from your former life. So was I. So was everyone, as far as I know.
The thing is, we have to understand that what we were convicted to give up is not necessarily a sin per se. Sometimes God tells up to give up things because they are becoming idols in our lives. Sometimes God tells us to give up things because they keep us from the plan He has for us. It could be any number of reasons--none of which we really need to know.
But I cannot decide that since God told *me* to give up something that it automatically translates into its being a sin for everyone and *everyone* has to give it up.
Others are not bound by my private revelations. I would be foolish to try to bind them.
If God tells me to give up onions, even though I love onions very much, I must give them up or I will be in sin. But I cannot go around demanding that all Christians give up onions, because God didn't tell them to--He just told me to.
< Message edited by Ps103 -- 6/8/2008 11:27:01 AM >
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/8/2008 1:52:06 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1269
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I apologize for being a bit harsh in my other response. I hope you can forgive me.
Well of course. : ) All is forgiven.
quote:
If it was revealed to me that a certain thing I was listening to or doing was wrong, then I am not to go back to it. If I go about trying to justify and find an excuse for things that I now know to be wrong, then I am being led by the flesh.
Oh, I agree. If you are genuinely convicted of something, then you should never try and justify it away. The thing is, I have never once been convicted concerning metal or screamo, and apparently, neither have a few other users on here.
quote:
Just because it is not mentioned in the Bible, doesn't mean it's not a sin. The Spirit reveals to us the sins which are not specifically named in the Bible.
I also agree - except, aside from obvious inferences (for example - Ephesians 5:18 says not to get drunk by means of wine, but that also includes getting drunk by means of beer, scotch, vodka, etc., which we can determine by seeing drunken lifestyles in general condemned elsewehre in Scripture), the sins which are "revealed" are, I believe, personal. I'm convicted against playing certain video games (specifically, the ultra-violent type), but that's a personal conviction, and one I do not impose on other believers. There's nothing in Scripture against playing violent video games, but that doesn't make my conviction any less genuine - it does, however, make it personal, and not universal.
quote:
If you keep asking me to show you where it is mentioned in the Bible that smoking or drinking is a sin, then I will keep asking you where it says that it is not a sin?
I'm pretty sure that the burden of proof rests on your shoulders, friend. By your argument, I can easily make almost anything out to be sinful. Some believers say it is sinful to drink caffiene, or to eat deserts, or to drive SUVs, and I would be hard-pressed indeed to find a Scripture that says these things are not sinful.
However, it would be a simple thing to show in Scripture that any of these things (metal, screamo, drinking and smoking included) can become sinful if they begin to control our lives. If our treasure is found in these passing things, then there will our heart be; and anytime our heart is not with God first and foremost, something is sinful in our life. But, taken in moderation, and given the lack of explicit (or, I believe, implicit) biblical teaching on the subjects, I cannot conclude they are sinful.
I direct you, once again, to Romans 14. Here we see beleivers who are quarreling a debatable issue (well, two - whether to eat meat, and wheter to observe holy days) - an issue with no mandate for the Christian. Some people were genuinely convicted that they would be sinning if they acted in a certain way, and others were genuinely not. Paul's command is that those who are convicted to abstain (or partake, in the case of the holy day observance) must do so, to God's glory - that is, they are not to do so in a way that is holier-than-thou, a way that makes those who indulge feel like second-class Christians. Those who are not convicted are free to indulge, as long as, by their indulgence, they do not lead those who are convicted to break their convictions and sin.
I feel very confident that, were Scripture being written today, Paul could easily use the example of different musical genres in Romans 14. I believe that taking that passage to infer any matter, not explicitly or very implicitly taught as being sinful, is acceptable for the un-convicted Christian, is a solid exegesis. I believe metal and screamo certainly fall into that realm of a genuine Christian gray area.
quote:
It's not like smoking or drinking is required, so i'm sure that abstaining from them won't be a problem for a Christian. At least, until God gives you an answer.
God has given me an answer. And He's given you an answer. Those answers were personal, and they were different.
quote:
I'll give you an analogy. Say i'm a little boy playing around with a stick of dynamite. To me it seems harmless since I have never seen, read, or heard anything about it before, and assume it's nothing dangerous. However, I decide go to my father and ask him exactly what it is (since he knows better). The smart thing to do, would be to wait until I got to him to see what he has to say, before I would do anything with it. I am a bit foolish though, and on my way to my father, I decide to take matters into my own hands. I take out a lighter that I found somewhere along the road. I light the dynamite just to see what happens. Little do I know that I am about to cause my own destruction.
I find a few problems with your analogy.
1 - dynamite is not inherently wrong. If I were older and had a job working construction (let's say it was my father's business), dynamite would be a valuable tool needed to further my father's cause.
2 - I never assumed any of these things weren't dangerous. I examined the matters individually in light of Scripture, I asked my Father for guidance, and I sought the council of those I trust in godly matters. I didn't reach these conclusions because they looked more fun (though, heh, I think that they are), I reached them because I felt they were parts of His creation that God wants us to enjoy when we are ready.
3 - if you are still a spiritual child, then of course things will be more likely to cause harm. However, we are commanded to grow in Christ, not remain helpless babes. Personally, I bet Iwould probably find myself siding with you on some matters if this discussion were taking place 7 or 8 years ago, but I've matured in Christ, by His grace, and come to realize that the convictions I had then, though real at the time, are not the convictions I have now. I believe that, as we grow closer to God, we come to know Him more and more, and in doing so we realize that the rules He led us to follow when we were further away was to protect us before we were ready to handle them. Just as parents should give greater responsibilities and freedoms to their children as they mature, so our heavenly Father does the same.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/9/2008 9:20:46 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1300
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
1 - dynamite is not inherently wrong. If I were older and had a job working construction (let's say it was my father's business), dynamite would be a valuable tool needed to further my father's cause.
Even the bible, when misused, is a VERY dangerous thing....perhaps we should all stay away from them, too....
Here's another "summary" on "rock" music....from my inlaws perspective (with them being VERY long-time southern baptists)....
"If we don't "like" it, then there must be something wrong with it."
that pretty much sums it up.
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Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/9/2008 9:49:25 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4023
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I am constantly being convicted of things--sometimes I need to give things up permanently, sometimes for a season. I'm pretty sure this is just part of the walk.
To the OP, I'm much more inclined to listen to arguments that say something along the line of "I believe this artist/band/etc. is wrong for Christians to listen to and this is why...please give prayerful consideration." One who comes in saying all (most) music is "satanic," including Christian music, I usually write off. It simply can't be backed up.
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/9/2008 11:17:28 AM
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jbow
Posts: 687
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From: Dixie
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This argument goes all the way back to Issac Watts and probably farther back than that. Watts was frustrated by the "old fogey" chants and hymns of the day and complained about it to his father all the time. Finally Watts began to write contemporary hymns.
Contemporary Christian music is almost always resisted. Our current CCM praise music would not have been accepted in our churches a few decades ago, at all!
If your concience troubles you, then you should steer clear but you should not try to lay your convictions on others. To some it is ok.
As far as secular music I am particular about what I listen to. If the words are about sinning... I don't listen. If it takes me back to a time and place I should not be... I don't listen.
I play electric guitar though so I use some of it to learn from and to practice with, mostly straight blues though and that does not bother me in the least, as long as it isn't "backdoor man" kind of stuff.
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/9/2008 3:37:43 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 17005
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
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quote:
ORIGINAL: glimmerinthedark
Fribbles, I can use your own argument against you as well. The whole "as long as the heart and intention is right" thing easily falls apart. Can I drink alchohol with the "heart" and "intention" of glorifying God? Can I smoke with the "heart" and "intention" of glorifying God? Can I look at porn with the "heart" and "intent" of glorifying the God? Don't think so.
If you say yes, then I would be able to conclude that you are indeed led by your lusts, not the Spirit.
If something is inherently sinful as defined in the Bible, then you cannot look or listen to it with a pure heart. If it isn't explicitly backed up by scripture, then it isn't sin by nature.
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/10/2008 5:06:55 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I was led INTO Christian heavy metal by the Spirit. . .
How about that?
One of us must be wrong.
Can one be a "head banger, mosh pit, scream-at-the-top-of-yer-lungs" Christian? Yeeeaaaahhhh, alriiiiiiight, Jeeeeesuuuuuuuus! Yeeeaaahhhh!
Heavendweller
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/10/2008 10:17:58 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 17005
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I was led INTO Christian heavy metal by the Spirit. . .
How about that?
One of us must be wrong.
Can one be a "head banger, mosh pit, scream-at-the-top-of-yer-lungs" Christian? Yeeeaaaahhhh, alriiiiiiight, Jeeeeesuuuuuuuus! Yeeeaaahhhh!
Heavendweller
Yes.
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/11/2008 5:20:00 AM
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glimmerinthedark
Posts: 82
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I was led INTO Christian heavy metal by the Spirit. . .
How about that?
One of us must be wrong.
Can one be a "head banger, mosh pit, scream-at-the-top-of-yer-lungs" Christian? Yeeeaaaahhhh, alriiiiiiight, Jeeeeesuuuuuuuus! Yeeeaaahhhh!
Heavendweller
Yes.
No. At that point, you would be no different than Todd Bentley. He was demon possesed, and was cursing, jumping around , drooling, yelling, and yet, saying "I love Jesus".
< Message edited by glimmerinthedark -- 6/11/2008 6:08:53 AM >
_____________________________
Good works are the byproducts of salvation. Not the other way around.
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/11/2008 5:30:00 AM
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glimmerinthedark
Posts: 82
Joined: 4/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
You can't take something satanic and sugar coat it with a Christian title. It's like taking poison, and putting whipped cream on it. It may look good because of the topping, but it still kills.
Do you celebrate Christmas? What about Easter?
Just checking.
Well you see, i'm not indulging in, or being influenced by, Christmas and Easter every day (besides, those are pagan days, not satanic). As opposed to listening to a certain genre of music every day. Music is also what shapes your personality, your style, your thinking, ect. So far, I have not seen a metal band that can positively persuade or encourage a person to be more "Christ like". If someone can name a good metal Christian band that can, i'll be glad to "inspect" it.
< Message edited by glimmerinthedark -- 6/11/2008 6:42:35 AM >
_____________________________
Good works are the byproducts of salvation. Not the other way around.
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/11/2008 5:41:04 AM
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glimmerinthedark
Posts: 82
Joined: 4/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Some believers say it is sinful to drink caffiene, or to eat deserts, or to drive SUVs...
Yes that is pretty ridiculous.
However, what about your health? Does God approve of a habit that damages the health?
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Good works are the byproducts of salvation. Not the other way around.
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/11/2008 5:42:32 AM
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glimmerinthedark
Posts: 82
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
God has given me an answer.
Alright.
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Good works are the byproducts of salvation. Not the other way around.
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/11/2008 8:14:22 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3516
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From: my mom by God
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Mr. Bentley's music did not make his sermons questionably christian. It was the sermons themselves.
You do know that hymn's melodies came from drinking songs...right? They just changed the words...just like contemproar christian music.
Its not about a beat. Its about the message.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Rock n' roll? - 6/11/2008 9:25:49 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4023
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quote:
ORIGINAL: glimmerinthedark
Well you see, i'm not indulging in, or being influenced by, Christmas and Easter every day (besides, those are pagan days, not satanic).
What's the difference?
quote:
As opposed to listening to a certain genre of music every day. Music is also what shapes your personality, your style, your thinking, ect.
I listen to a lot of different kinds of music. I enjoy them as I listen, then I turn them off and go about my business. I think you're giving music a bit too much credit. My personality was likely shaped long before I was old enough to have a musical preference.
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I'm tired of signatures.
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