RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (Full Version)

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Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/14/2008 3:51:34 PM)

So, you are doing these things for purely evangelical purposes, since you fully understand how to love Adonai and your nieghbor? Not only are you blessed but extremely chartitable as will? If you believe this is an end time prophecy, then on what basis do you say the new covenant has been realized?



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/14/2008 5:38:12 PM)

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So, you are doing these things for purely evangelical purposes, since you fully understand how to love Adonai and your nieghbor?
Just because someone may "fully understand" something does not mean they perform it ideally every time. This is a huge misconception of those who do not adhere to holiness doctrine. Christian perfection is NOT the end, it's only the begining. We must continue to live our lives in holiness (by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit) and strive for maturity as Paul exhorted in many of his letters. Phil 1:6

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Not only are you blessed but extremely chartitable as will?
Charity (love) is the fruit of the Spirit! [:)]

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If you believe this is an end time prophecy, then on what basis do you say the new covenant has been realized?
I said it may also be an end-time prophecy. The New Covenant has been realized in every Believer whose being is entirely sanctified by God's Holiness.



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/14/2008 6:20:12 PM)

I'm not even talking about actions yet. If you understand what is meant by the "two great commandments" and that is all that is required of us, why do you continue to study?



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/14/2008 11:36:55 PM)

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If you understand what is meant by the "two great commandments" and that is all that is required of us, why do you continue to study?
As I've already said - to better apply these commands in my daily walk with Adonai. We are all earthen vessels living in a fallen world, Bluethread. I forget things, I make mistakes, I have human weaknesses that need improvement. These do not magically go away just because "God writes His laws on our hearts". Christian perfection is all about intent of the heart, not totally ideal performance in every situation.



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/15/2008 12:29:33 PM)

My understanding of the biblical definition of understanding is not just knowing about but knowing how too. That is when Ha Torah(The Word) says, love Ha Adonai Elohiem(The Lord God) and love youyr neighbor as yourself. It means do it, not just know about it. Now, if we see holiness as acceptable before Adonai, as the holiness movement appears to do, it is agreed that we are accepted by Adonai's grace. However, for ones actions to be acceptable before Adonai one must do what is commanded.

Again, I see holiness as merely being set apart for a purpose, not necessarily a good purpose. The interpretation of holiness as acceptance before Adonai leads to great confussion.



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/15/2008 4:47:11 PM)

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Now, if we see holiness as acceptable before Adonai, as the holiness movement appears to do, it is agreed that we are accepted by Adonai's grace. However, for ones actions to be acceptable before Adonai one must do what is commanded.
Well, it's not just the "holiness movement" that views holiness as important to God, it's God Himself! And indeed, there is no holiness without holy behavior and actions. So, we are in full agreement on these points, Bluethread.

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The interpretation of holiness as acceptance before Adonai leads to great confussion.
Not to me! We have imputed righteousness that serves as acceptance and we have imparted righteousness that causes obedience. What confuses you, Bluethread?



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/15/2008 5:50:44 PM)

No you are totally missing my point. Holy does not equal righteous. I was willing to accept this misuse of the term for a short time, but now it is creating great confusion. Prostitutes are holy. They are set apart for a purpose. Truck drivers are holy, only they drive trucks. Plummers are holy, only they are paid for fixing plumming. Now Adonai has told us to be holy, not as prostitutes, truck drivers and plummers are holy, but as He is holy. We are to be different from those around us. The reason we are told to be different from those around us is because we can easily adopt their behaviors if we do not keep ourselves holy(seperate) from them.

Now, in Adonai's eyes we are holy(different), but that does not mean we understand how to be different. That is why Peter encourages us to follow the admonition in the Tanach(old testiment) that says. "Be holy as I am holy." Paul tells us how to do this. "Study to show yourselves approved(as holy), workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Paul tells us this because we are not there yet. Now, to get back to the topic, Yerimayahu(Jeremiah) assures us that Adonai will make the covenant new by writing it on our hearts so we will not forget it and thus remember to live holy(different) lives. The proof that we rejected the covenant is that we allowed ourselves to become like the other nations(not holy).



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/16/2008 4:19:24 PM)

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No you are totally missing my point.
Sorry, Bluethread, I'm not "missing your point", I'm totally discounting it because the two terms are used connectedly throughout the New Testament. Mark 6:20 is a good example.

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The proof that we rejected the covenant is that we allowed ourselves to become like the other nations(not holy).
Who is "we"?



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/16/2008 5:53:49 PM)

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ORIGINAL: drmark

Sorry, Bluethread, I'm not "missing your point", I'm totally discounting it because the two terms are used connectedly throughout the New Testament. Mark 6:20 is a good example.


Mark 6:20 because Herod feared John and protected him, knowing him to be a righteous and holy man. When Herod heard John, he was greatly puzzled; yet he liked to listen to him. (for those who came in late)

Yes, the two terms are often used together, which has lead to holiness having a connotation of righteousness in peoples minds. However, I submit that both terms are used because they mean different things. Otherwise there would be no need to use both terms.

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The proof that we rejected the covenant is that we allowed ourselves to become like the other nations(not holy).
Who is "we"?


Though I am at a lose for the reference at the moment, we were told that are to consider ourselves to have been among the mixed multitude when we left Eygpt. Even if you don't accept that, don't you think that the believers have adopted many of the unrighteous practices of the nations.



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/16/2008 6:22:22 PM)

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Even if you don't accept that, don't you think that the believers have adopted many of the unrighteous practices of the nations.
Sure, that's quite evident from reading many of the threads here. But those Believers do not yet have God's law put in their minds or written on their hearts, based on their unrighteous practice.



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/16/2008 6:24:45 PM)

Percisely! How will those laws be written on their hearts and how do you know that those practices are unrighteous?



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/16/2008 6:32:50 PM)

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How will those laws be written on their hearts and how do you know that those practices are unrighteous?
In my tradition we call this entire sanctification and trust the Holy Spirit to provide spiritual discernment regarding unrighteous practices. How do you identify unrighteousness?



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/16/2008 6:46:53 PM)

I trust the Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) to provide spiritual discernment regarding unrighteous practices, which I test against the Scriptures(old and new) and the council of Adonai's people. In this way, I assure myself that I have received the whole council of Adonai and assure myself that it is Ha Chedosh Adonai(The Spirit of The Lord) and not some other spirit. That is also how He is writing Ha Torah(The Word) on my heart.



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/16/2008 6:49:23 PM)

Great, then we agree that Jeremiah's prophecy is coming to pass!



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/16/2008 7:41:38 PM)

Yes, is coming to pass. but we still need to clarify for one another and consult the Scriptures. Therefore, it has not been actualized yet. Now, if you will accept the definition that fulfilled means a full representation and not fully completed, I might say that the new covenant was fulfilled in Yeshua(Jesus). I have my doubts about the rest of us, including myself.



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/16/2008 9:30:39 PM)

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Now, if you will accept the definition that fulfilled means a full representation and not fully completed, I might say that the new covenant was fulfilled in Yeshua(Jesus).
What is left for Yeshua to do in order to fulfill the new covenant?

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I have my doubts about the rest of us, including myself.
Well, all I can say is that millions of Holiness Believers (myself included)all around the world have little if any doubt about the perfection of their hearts. I cannot speak for you and "the rest of you".



bjay0801 -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/18/2008 6:18:16 PM)

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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Now, if you will accept the definition that fulfilled means a full representation and not fully completed, I might say that the new covenant was fulfilled in Yeshua(Jesus).
What is left for Yeshua to do in order to fulfill the new covenant?

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I have my doubts about the rest of us, including myself.
Well, all I can say is that millions of Holiness Believers (myself included)all around the world have little if any doubt about the perfection of their hearts. I cannot speak for you and "the rest of you".


Well, fortunately for us, biblical "perfection" means uprightness. Not the "I can do no wrong" type of perfection that is usualy associated with this word. And there is another thing that has yet to be done which is in Luke 22:14
And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
22:15
And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
22:16
For I say unto you *, I will not any more eat thereof *, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
So we have yet to have Passover with Jesus so I know I'm looking forward to that.



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/19/2008 1:32:44 PM)

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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Now, if you will accept the definition that fulfilled means a full representation and not fully completed, I might say that the new covenant was fulfilled in Yeshua(Jesus).
What is left for Yeshua to do in order to fulfill the new covenant?

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I have my doubts about the rest of us, including myself.
Well, all I can say is that millions of Holiness Believers (myself included)all around the world have little if any doubt about the perfection of their hearts. I cannot speak for you and "the rest of you".


Do you always answer your own questions? I believe, He still needs to write Ha Torah(The Word) on our hearts to the extent that no man needs to teach another. You obviously believe you have much to teach me.



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/19/2008 2:00:55 PM)

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You obviously believe you have much to teach me.
Actually Bluethread, I believe the Holy Spirit has much to teach all of us. If God chooses me to be an instrument for His educational purposes, I am humbled and will ask Him for wisdom and gentleness in my endeavors.



rcjones -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/20/2008 9:15:12 PM)

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To get back to the topic do you understand my point that, I believe, Ha Torah(The Word) that will be written on our hearts is indeed Adonai Himself. The idea of The Ruach Ha Chedosh(Holy Spirit) filling us comes close to this idea. However, I believe, only Yeshua(Jesus) was in this state for any significant period of time. Therefore, it appears to me that this prophesy is yet to be realized.


The word Torah, in my understanding, encompasses the whole of God's revelation, and that the written Torah is just a part of it.
So I see the Torah of God as expressed in the words Jesus used indicating our emptiness of it. He said we were deaf, blind, and lame (other than that were were perfectly normal).

We see the pattern repeated in creation in Genesis, when God meets Israel at the mountain in Exodus, even in the condemnation of all men in Romans 1 and Peter's denial of Christ.

Hearing is what we should do when God makes himself manifest to our being. We simply believe because it is intuitively obvious that God is God.
Seeing is what we should do when we engage the intellect and examine God's creation and his revelation in history.
Walking is what we do when we have the very life of God within us.

We are condemned by the first two witnesses, since we were deaf and blind, but the life of Christ within us sets us free to walk in His ways.

When we have the life, I believe we have the Torah (or the law) written on our hearts.



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/21/2008 7:48:57 PM)

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ORIGINAL: rcjones

When we have the life, I believe we have the Torah (or the law) written on our hearts.


The problem with this interpretaion is the part of the passages that talks of no man needing to teach another. If that is the case why are there so many different opinions regarding the Scriptures?



rcjones -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/22/2008 12:18:40 AM)

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Recap:
The scope of the passage speaks of the house of Israel (whether literal or figurative is a different discussion).
From the greatest to the least of them, (who have had the law written on their hearts)
They will not need to teach each other, for they all know the Lord.

If this had already been fulfilled it simply means that we are presumptuous when we think we have to teach other saved people about Christ, because they already know him. It does not say that all will have identical beliefs about Jesus. It simply says knowing Him is more important than your systematic theology that one wishes to impose upon others.
It also does not address the many other beliefs that unsaved people might hold.

I am addressing the question directly with this answer, not necessarily espousing a doctrine, since having His Law written on my heart I would not presume to teach. ;-)

You know, there was a woman in a church I served many years ago who was dumber than a doorknob. She would try to use big three syllable words and get one that sounded similar but was absolutely the wrong one. If she did get a word right she would mispronounce it. When I learned how much she loved the Lord I realized how brilliant she was. When she talked I didn't hear her words, but her heart. Would that I had her heart.



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/22/2008 2:09:18 PM)

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ORIGINAL: rcjones

The scope of the passage speaks of the house of Israel (whether literal or figurative is a different discussion).


If we can not discuss an issue, it doesn't make sense to bring it up and leaving a statement unexplained and unanswered leads to confusion.

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From the greatest to the least of them, (who have had the law written on their hearts)
They will not need to teach each other, for they all know the Lord.

If this had already been fulfilled it simply means that we are presumptuous when we think we have to teach other saved people about Christ, because they already know him. It does not say that all will have identical beliefs about Jesus. It simply says knowing Him is more important than your systematic theology that one wishes to impose upon others.
It also does not address the many other beliefs that unsaved people might hold.

I am addressing the question directly with this answer, not necessarily espousing a doctrine, since having His Law written on my heart I would not presume to teach. ;-)


This is probably the best answer I have received from those who see this passage as "fulfilled", since I infer from it that you are interpreting "written on our hearts" as supernatural access to the knowledge of Adonai should we choose to take advantage of it. That said, I am not comfortable with personnal revelation alone. I also do not believe it is wrong to varify the source of personal revelation with the written word and the convocations of believers.

I see this passage as saying that the written word and convocations for clarification will not be necessary. Therefore, I do not believe this passages has "replaced" prior revelation, because, I do not believe this to be the case at this time.



rcjones -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/23/2008 12:09:58 AM)

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If we can not discuss an issue, it doesn't make sense to bring it up and leaving a statement unexplained and unanswered leads to confusion.



You are certainly welcome to discuss it. But I am too old to chase too many secondary points at a time. I simply was indicating that it was not relevant to the particular argument I was making, since the primary point of the nature of the "law written on the heart" was the particular I was addressing. I have seen that the scope has been discussed elsewhere, and it is not likely I will add to those thoughts.


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This is probably the best answer I have received from those who see this passage as "fulfilled", since I infer from it that you are interpreting "written on our hearts" as supernatural access to the knowledge of Adonai should we choose to take advantage of it. That said, I am not comfortable with personnal revelation alone. I also do not believe it is wrong to varify the source of personal revelation with the written word and the convocations of believers.

I see this passage as saying that the written word and convocations for clarification will not be necessary. Therefore, I do not believe this passages has "replaced" prior revelation, because, I do not believe this to be the case at this time.


Thank you. Although I did make the particular point that I personally may not subscribe to the details as presented, nor as they may be misunderstood. ;-) and the proposition was presented in a conditional form.

Personally I think we have but a taste of fulfillment.



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/23/2008 7:55:51 AM)

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Personally I think we have but a taste of fulfillment.
I agree, both a taste and the initiation of fulfillment. But that does not negate the experience for those who are tasting and part of initiating!



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