RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (Full Version)

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Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/8/2008 1:06:28 PM)

quote:

GrahamCracker:

1) Your divisions of the Old Covenant are artificial. The author of Hebrews does not speak of part 1 (priesthood and sacrifices) of the Old being done away and a part 2 (other sections of the law) remaining in place.

2) Hebrews speaks of a contrast between the first covenant and the second covenant. (Hebrews 8:7)


1) The author of Hebrews does not talk about the other sections at all, except with regard to circumcision to clarify that it is a sign of the covenant and not the covenant itself. Every example he(I am presuming it is he, lol) uses is related to the tabernacle/temple and the priesthood, which passed away in 70CE. If he intended to include anything else, we have no clue which parts are necessary for proper living and which are not. In fact the term used is passed away not done away. This seems to imply falling into disuse not abolition.

2) Context is everything here. The difference between the two is the terms of transmission and enforcement. No mention is made of technical details of the covenant. The problem with the first covenant was that it was written on stone and reinforced through temple scrifice. The second is being written on our hearts and is reinforced through the example of Yeshua Ha Meshiach(Jesus The Messiah)

Hebrews 8:6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

quote:

So? It is the covenant changes, not the nature of God.


Yes, the nature of Adonai does not change and since the covenant is exemplary of His nature it does not change either. Only the terms of transmission and enforcement change and even those have not really changed. I say this because, as stated earlier, the first covenant was given to us through Adonai writting it on the hearts and minds of those who transcribed it. Also, the real enforcement of the covenant has always been in the blessings and curses that follow from our actions(see the historical and prophetic books). These later, mostly negative examples have been augmented with the positive example of Yeshua(Jesus).

quote:

I don't believe Paul wrote Hebrews but that's another discussion. Anyway, just because he quotes from the OT, there is no reason to divide the Old Cov. into 2 (or more) sections.


And again: Ps 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. 7 Then I said, "Here I am, I have come-- it is written about me in the scroll. 8 I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart."

I believe the author of Hebrews differentiates between because David does, and prophetically Yeshua(Jesus) does.



GrahamCracker -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/8/2008 4:44:37 PM)

quote:

1) The author of Hebrews does not talk about the other sections at all, except with regard to circumcision to clarify that it is a sign of the covenant and not the covenant itself.

But it is an integral part of the covenant. If the covenant is still in force, then the sign ought to be in force also.

quote:

Every example he(I am presuming it is he, lol) uses is related to the tabernacle/temple and the priesthood, which passed away in 70CE. If he intended to include anything else, we have no clue which parts are necessary for proper living and which are not.


You're assuming that it can be broken up into parts. If he gives no clue regarding how to divide it, then we should not do so. If it is still in force, then the OT priesthood and temple worship should be in force also. Obviously that is impossible since the temple does not exist.
quote:

In fact the term used is passed away not done away. This seems to imply falling into disuse not abolition.


Aren't you making a distinction without any appreciable difference? At the time it was written, the old covenant was already fading. Previously, the presence of the HS was the Temple, afterward the HS was said to indwell His believers. Believers no longer needed to go to the priest and have sacrfices offered for them. They could approach the Real High Priest at any time (Hebrews 4:14).
quote:

2) Context is everything here. The difference between the two is the terms of transmission and enforcement. No mention is made of technical details of the covenant. The problem with the first covenant was that it was written on stone and reinforced through temple scrifice. The second is being written on our hearts and is reinforced through the example of Yeshua Ha Meshiach(Jesus The Messiah)


What is the NT scriptures if it isn't the terms of the new covenant?
quote:

Yes, the nature of Adonai does not change and since the covenant is exemplary of His nature it does not change either.


Aw come on! The Old Covenant "fades away." Since you have already conceded that it will happen in the future, or hasn't happened yet, you have to concede that will change. Even if you don't think it has happened yet, you cannot possibly argue that it doesn't change.
quote:

Also, the real enforcement of the covenant has always been in the blessings and curses that follow from our actions(see the historical and prophetic books). These later, mostly negative examples have been augmented with the positive example of Yeshua(Jesus).


Then why wouldn't I get stoned if I commit adultery?
quote:

quote:

I don't believe Paul wrote Hebrews but that's another discussion. Anyway, just because he quotes from the OT, there is no reason to divide the Old Cov. into 2 (or more) sections.


And again: Ps 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. 7 Then I said, "Here I am, I have come-- it is written about me in the scroll. 8 I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart."

I believe the author of Hebrews differentiates between because David does, and prophetically Yeshua(Jesus) does.


Huh? You are as clear as mud.



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/8/2008 6:25:50 PM)

Sorry, for the length of this post, but it was necessary to address all of the points raised. Maybe we need to try to break these up into smaller bites.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker

But it(circumcision) is an integral part of the covenant. If the covenant is still in force, then the sign ought to be in force also.


I hope you will accept my organizing like ideas. I will attempt to maintain the integrity of your statements. Please correct any error in this matter.

Yes, I do believe circumcision is still a sign of acceptance of Adonai's covenant with us, as is fidelity and refraining from murder.

quote:

Then why wouldn't I get stoned if I commit adultery?


For the same reason we are not stoned for murder, it is considered cruel and unusual punishment in the USA.

quote:

You're assuming that it can be broken up into parts. If he gives no clue regarding how to divide it, then we should not do so. If it is still in force, then the OT priesthood and temple worship should be in force also. Obviously that is impossible since the temple does not exist.


No I am not. Of course Adonai does not expect us to do the impossible. If it were possible, as a sign of faith, we should be making sacrifices. In fact many a pastor follows the rabbinic tradition of replacing mitzvot(good deeds) or tithes for the sacrifices, even though this is not clearly stated in the Apistolic Writings(new testiment). The impossibility is what caused it to fade away. This is also a clue to the focus of the authors point.

quote:

Aren't you making a distinction(fading/passing) without any appreciable difference? At the time it was written, the old covenant was already fading. Previously, the presence of the HS was the Temple, afterward the HS was said to indwell His believers. Believers no longer needed to go to the priest and have sacrfices offered for them. They could approach the Real High Priest at any time
(emphasis mine)

The error is in the bold statement. The temple was not Ruach Ha Chedosh. It was the primary place were Ruach Ha Chedosh appeared.
No one ever needed to go through a priest to gain access to Adonai. As Paul points out in the circumcision discussion Abraham had access to Adonai without a priest, though he did pay a tithe to Malkezedeck. And for that matter none of the Patriarchs prior to Moshe had access to a "priest", unless you grant Yeshua(Jesus) was their priest and this would show conintuity in fact throughout time.

The Levitical preisthood, in my opinion was a concession. There duty was to help the community, heads of household or individual perform their covenant duties as signs of faith, much like a modern day pastor is to help the parishener live out his faith.

quote:

What is the NT scriptures if it isn't the terms of the new covenant?


The Apistolic Writings are clarifications of Ha Torah(The Covenant), as is the Tanach(Psalms, Prophets and Histories). The records of Yeshua's earthly life exemplify Ha Torah and His teachings and those of His followers explain It.

quote:

Aw come on! The Old Covenant "fades away." Since you have already conceded that it will happen in the future, or hasn't happened yet, you have to concede that will change. Even if you don't think it has happened yet, you cannot possibly argue that it doesn't change.


No, I conceded that the Temple and Levitical priesthood faded away in 70CE. The only change I concede is that Ha Torah(The Word) became flesh and tabernacled(lived in a temparary dwelling) among us so we can behold the glory with our eyes, ears and hands. The Ruach Ha Chedosh has always been available to us.

I'm sorry if I did not make the connection with the following Scripture clear. Let me try a third time.

Ps 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. 7 Then I said, "Here I am, I have come-- it is written about me in the scroll. 8 I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart."

David tells us temple sacrifice has never been Adonai's perference, but He has always prefered we do His will according to His law(Ha Torah) that He is writing on our hearts. If you will, David is also saying that Yeshua(Jesus) said this.

Does that make more sense.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/9/2008 1:25:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:

Of course not, Mark.
Okay, I appreciate your honesty, Abiyah. That's all I was implying by my previous post and in retrospect I erred [;)] in wording my statement in such a fashion that you would think I doubted your veracity. Thanks for your forgiveness.

You know, Mark, that I will always see you as a friend, even though we butt heads.

When we butt heads, we are doing a very Hebrew thing. I wish you could come to one of the services at my place of worship! We love one another there, but we butt heads sometimes. Never, however, do we get angry or lose friends over it, as often happens in some other circles.

Butting heads is a very good thing, because everyone learns something. It doesn't matter if we come to agreement or not, as long as the debate ends with everyone (1) learning something, (2) more sure of their position, (3) coming to a new conclusion because they have learned something, or (4) determined to study the Word until the come to a firm conclusion.

I love the fact that when you and I butt heads, we don't leave angry. That is the way it should be at all times.



GraceBro -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/10/2008 11:02:51 AM)

quote:

Sorry for the long list, I really don't like it when people do that. However, this neoplatonism(doctrine of Plato) that teaches that the physical is always bad and the spiritual is always good is wearing a little thin. Adonai not only cares about our spirits now, but has always wanted us to have a contrite heart and still cares about what we do physically.


I don't know why you felt it necessary to label my post as something it isn't. I did not say anything about the physical is always bad and the spiritual is always good. If anything is wearing thin it is when individuals put up straw men to tear down other posts because they don't understand what has been written.

The Old Covenant law is good, if it is used in it's proper context.

"We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me." 1 Timothy 1:8-11

The law leads an unbeliever (lawbreakers, etc.) to Christ by showing them their sinfulness. Once one comes to Christ, the grace of God, found in the New Covenant, leads them from that point on.

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age..." Titus 2:11-12

They are two separate, and distinct, covenants. Both of them are in effect today, but they don't apply to the same group of people. The law is for unbelievers. Grace is for believers. When you try and mix them, you destroy both.

"Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved." Matthew 9:17

Christians are not subject to the law. It is not a guide for Christian living. A Christian doesn't live their life by doing what is good and avoiding what is evil. That is falling for the same lie the Devil told Eve in the Garden. A Christian lives by faith. That faith is in the indwelling Holy Spirit to live His life in and through a believer. And when we rest from our works and allow that to take place, He is not going to lead a believer into a life of sin. Therefore, we won't be violating our neighbors (be lawbreakers), but serving them in love (freedom under grace).

"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." Galatians 3:23-25

Grace and Peace



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/10/2008 1:39:06 PM)

quote:

A Christian doesn't live their life by doing what is good and avoiding what is evil.
Surely you really meant to say: "A Christian doesn't merit their salvation by doing what is good and avoiding what is evil." Or perhaps: "A Christian doesn't live their life without the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit enabling them to do what is good and avoid what is evil." Every Christian must live their life by doing what is good and avoiding what is evil - 1 Peter 3:11-12.



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/12/2008 6:28:09 PM)

GraceBro:

I am sorry, if I did not summarize your views properly. My concern is regarding the practice of the Thesselonians, who ignored their earthly responsibilities because they believed Yeshua(Jesus) would return soon. If this does not exemplify you views, I beg your forgiveness.

Yes, Ha Torah is not for salvation. This is what Paul is talking about in Galations. If one looks at the previous verses, on sees that the covenant of Arbraham is not abolished. On the contrary the purpose of the law is to help us keep the covenant.

Gal 3:21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God(given to Avraham)? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Therefore, we are no longer prisoners of sin and thus prisoners of a law we can not live by. But, since we have been saved, we are no longer prisoners of sin and are free to live "self-controlled, upright and godly lives". But, how do we do this? Does this just mystically happen? James tells us that it is by looking into Ha Torah(The Word) that we see what we can do to recieve the blessings of Adonai.

Jas 1:25
But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does.

Paul did not tell Timothy that the law was not for believers. He said that the "law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels ..." In other words, as Paul said elsewhere, those who keep Ha Torah(The Law) without knowing Ha Torah are Ha Torah to themselves. As I said before, the purpose of Ha Torah is not for salvation, but for elumiating bad behavior, thus leading us to Ha Meshiach(The Messiah) from whom we recieve salvation through faith. Being saved we are no longer under the supervision of Ha Torah, but are free to refer to it as a guide to the ways of Adonai Yeshua(Lord Jesus) who was Ha Torah in the flesh.

Now, as Adonai writes this on our hearts we will no longer need to refer to the written law or one another for guidance. I believe this process is in progress, but has not been completed since we still read the Scriptures and discuss these things among ourselves.



GraceBro -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/13/2008 12:29:18 AM)

quote:

Surely you really meant to say: "A Christian doesn't merit their salvation by doing what is good and avoiding what is evil." Or perhaps: "A Christian doesn't live their life without the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit enabling them to do what is good and avoid what is evil." Every Christian must live their life by doing what is good and avoiding what is evil.


Hi drmark... You read me correctly. I know it sounds strange, but Christians live by faith in Christ, who leads us from within, through the power of the Holy Spirit. And when we rely on Him to do that He is not going to lead us into a life of sin.

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age..." Titus 2:11-12

Otherwise, we have to determine what is good and what is evil and then try and live by those rules. That is living under law and, in effect, trying to be like God, which is the same lie Eve fell for in the Garden.

"Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3: 4-5

By abiding in the indwelling Holy Spirit we will not be violating our neighbors, but serving them in love. We are free in Christ. That freedom means we have the choice to be led by outward laws designed to modify our behavior or be led by the life of God who leads us from within. This is a choice we make every day as believers. Do we rely on our ability to try and live the Christian life or rest from our works and make ourselves available to the Lord to live the Christian life in and through us?

Grace and Peace



GraceBro -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/13/2008 1:24:12 AM)

Bluethread,

I forgive you. I am not advocating Christians "ignore" earthly responsibility. In my opinion, that assessment is evidence of not knowing the role of the Holy Spirit in a believers life. I also agree that the Old Covenant has not been abolished. However, the Old Covenant, or the law, to be exact, is not for believers.

"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God." Galatians 2:19

We can't "live for God" unless we recognize that we have "died to the law." The law has no place in the life of a believer. If you would look at the passage from Galatians 3, in its entirety, you would see that the purpose of the law is to lead us to Christ for salvation. And once we have come to faith in Christ, we are no longer under the law. It is very clear.

"What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come... So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." Galatians 3:19, 24-25

The whole purpose of the law is to show us that we cannot be like God. It was not put in place to make us righteous, justify us or give us life. If someone believes that it has a place in the believers life then the law hasn't finished doing its work in their lives. To that end, I would encourage that person to keep plugging away at the law with all their heart, mind, body and soul. My prayer is that one day they will realize that the..

"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." 1 Corinthians 15:56

and that..

"Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."" Galatians 3:11

The law most certainly is for unbelievers. That is the proper use of the law, as described by Paul in his letter to Timothy. The righteous, the law is not for, are believers. Therefore, the contrast is clear. The law is a yoke of slavery that we are warned not to fall back to in Galatians 5:4.

"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

There is no way you can reconcile proclaiming the law is for a believer when it says those under it are alienated from Christ. And speaking of James, he was the one who said a few short verses after the passage you quoted...

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10

There are 613 laws that nobody, not even the Jews, can keep. God gave them to show the people just how impossible they are to keep so they would be humbled enough to rest from their own works and come to Him by faith. As we read in Hebrews 8:7-8..

"For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people..."

If the law was to be a part of a Christians life, I think Paul wouldn't have said...

"If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith." Philippians 3:4-9

Sorry this is so long, but it had to be addressed. I hope we can agree to disagree on this one. But, thanks for the dialogue.

Grace and Peace



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/13/2008 1:35:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GraceBro
Otherwise, we have to determine what is good and what is evil and then try and live by those rules. That is living under law and, in effect, trying to be like God, which is the same lie Eve fell for in the Garden.

So am I misreading you? we have to determine what is good and what is evil and then try and live by those rules We don't have to decide right and wrong, when we read the instructions in the Bible! That is living under law and, in effect, trying to be like God So G-d erred, when He told Israel to live by His Torah?? which is the same lie Eve fell for in the Garden So Eve sinned by living according to Torah?? I'm sorry! I hope I am not reading you correctly!

I have to determine nothing, to understand what sin is! As soon as I add to what the Scriptures already tell me is sin, I sin by adding to the Scriptures! Reading and following the instructions in the Bible is what he tells us to do! Can you not see that the very Scripture you quote says that we must reject ungodliness and lust, living righteously and godly now?
quote:

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age..." Titus 2:11-12

How do we learn what is righteous and godly? By the Bible! or it is a completely useless book and it ought not to be quoted!

Further, for you to say that Eve sinned, ignoring that Romans 5:14 clearly states that Adam sinned, while 2Co 11:3 says that Eve was deceived is also interesting. Surely, Eve sinned, but it is just interesting that you would choose this verbiage, in the light of the Scriptures.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GraceBro
By abiding in the indwelling Holy Spirit we will not be violating our neighbors, but serving them in love. We are free in Christ. That freedom means we have the choice to be led by outward laws designed to modify our behavior or be led by the life of God who leads us from within. This is a choice we make every day as believers. Do we rely on our ability to try and live the Christian life or rest from our works and make ourselves available to the Lord to live the Christian life in and through us?

What does the H Spirit teach us?
quote:

Joh 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
How can He remind us of Messiah's words, if we have not heard or read them from the Bible?

"Let me remind you, GB, that I have to leave work tomorrow afternoon at 1:30." Did I remind you that I have to leave tomorrow at 1:30? No! You did not know that I must leave work tomorrow at 1:30 until I told you in the first sentece here. TIn the same way, the H Spirit cannot "remind" us of Messiah's ideas unless we have heard/read them before. How to we learn His ideas? From the Bible. That is the source. THE source.

Let me tell you about faith. Faith without works is dead. Faith that is dead is not alive and cannot be made alive without the work of the H Spirit. The H Spirit, however, cannot make a move without doing the ideas of G-d. Where are the ideas of G-d for us? In the Bible. Therefore, faith without doing what is in the Bible is dead.

I have faith that this chair will hold people if they sit in it, but if I won't let anyone sit in it, so what? The chair has no value whatsoever. Faith without works is dead.

I sure hope I simply did not understand you.



ta_mosquito -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/13/2008 8:21:27 AM)

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Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/13/2008 12:34:39 PM)

So we can stay on topic, let's look at this a different way. What is Adonai writing on our hearts? If Ha Torah(The Word) has no value for the believer, why is He going to write it on our hearts. If it is some other law He is going to write on our hearts, please, tell me where I can find that law that I may study it.



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/13/2008 2:03:58 PM)

quote:

What is Adonai writing on our hearts?
Matthew 22:37-40 works for me!



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/13/2008 6:45:30 PM)

Good, so we are in agreement that Adonai will write Duet. 6 and Lev. 19:18 on our hearts, since these are the passages Yeshua(Jesus) is quoting as a summary of Ha Torah(The Word)in Matthew 22:37-40. Is that all and do we understand these passages so that we need not instruct one another regarding them?



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/13/2008 7:03:32 PM)

I certainly understand them, Bluethread, and every entirely sanctified Believer I personally know appears to understand them, so living them out is the next step. Surely we should share, encourage, and instruct one another in how to live out the Law written on our hearts. The passage does not say "need to instruct", does it?



GrahamCracker -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/13/2008 7:32:25 PM)

Bluethread said
quote:

If it is some other law He is going to write on our hearts, please, tell me where I can find that law that I may study it.


Gee. If it's "written in [our] hearts", you are not going to find it written down somewhere else to study.



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/13/2008 7:56:15 PM)

Sure does.

Jer31:33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."



GrahamCracker -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/13/2008 9:09:36 PM)

So if it's written in our hearts, we are to take that literally?



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/14/2008 7:22:41 AM)

quote:

Gee. If it's "written in [our] hearts", you are not going to find it written down somewhere else to study.
I didn't realize the Bible magically evaporated when someone loved the Lord with all their being.

quote:

quote:

The passage does not say "need to instruct", does it?
Sure does.
I guess that's your interpretation, BT. Mine's different.



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/14/2008 1:09:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

I certainly understand them, Bluethread, and every entirely sanctified Believer I personally know appears to understand them, so living them out is the next step. Surely we should share, encourage, and instruct one another in how to live out the Law written on our hearts. The passage does not say "need to instruct", does it?


Then why is there so much discussion in the morality/ethics forum. Is it because these people are not under the new covenant as you are?

quote:

No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,"


I could see where there might be a difference in translation, but how can this not be interpreted as one man not needing to instruct another regarding the nature of Adonai?

GrahamCracker:

If what He is writing on our hearts is something other than Ha Torah(The Word), what is it? Is it some special mystic knowledge, like a masonic secret?

Also, the point of this thread is to discuss how we are to interpret these passages. So, do you interpret it literally, figuratively or what? And, please, elaberate for our benefit.



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/14/2008 1:19:52 PM)

quote:

Then why is there so much discussion in the morality/ethics forum. Is it because these people are not under the new covenant as you are?
It's not my right to judge the hearts of others I do not personally know. [8|]



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/14/2008 1:31:00 PM)

Then how can we say that the new covenant has been realized?



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/14/2008 1:32:28 PM)

quote:

Then how can we say that the new covenant has been realized?
It's certainly been realized in my heart! How about you?



Bluethread -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/14/2008 1:42:46 PM)

Well, I must admit that I do not really understand the nature of Adonai and exactly what He expects of me and for those reasons I refer to the written word, do those things that remind me of Adonai's ways, continually discuss these matters with my children and meet with others at the appointed times to clarify my understanding. So, since I need to do these things, I guess it has not been realized for me yet. If your understanding of the character of Adonai is such that you don't need to do these things, then you are indeed blessed.



drmark -> RE: Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 10:6 (5/14/2008 3:23:20 PM)

I need and will do all these things to, Bluethread. The point I thought you were making is that not all men know Messiah personally to that level of spiritual grace described in Jer 31/Hebr 10. Thus there is still "need" for us to "refer to the written word, do those things that remind us of Adonai's ways, continually discuss these matters with our children and meet with others at the appointed times to clarify our understanding." When all people are entirely sanctified and living in perfect love for Adonai, then there will be no need for further instruction, will there? Personally, I feel this is an end-time prophecy as well but that is a subject for the eschatology threads and I avoid them religiously! [:)]



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