Early Church Father on Redistribution of Wealth (Full Version)

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CatholicCritter -> Early Church Father on Redistribution of Wealth (5/1/2008 5:49:57 PM)

quote:

Should we look to kings and princes to put right the inequalities between rich and poor? Should we require soldiers to come and seize the rich man's gold and distribute it among his destitute neighbors? Should we beg the emperor to impose a tax on the rich so great that it reduces them to the level of the poor and then to share the proceeds of that tax among everyone?

Equality imposed by force would achieve nothing, and do much harm. Those who combine both cruel hearts and sharp minds would soon find ways of making themselves rich again. Worse still, the rich whose gold was taken away would feel bitter and resentful; while the poor who received the gold from the hands of soldiers would feel no gratitude, because no generosity would have prompted the gift. Far from bringing moral benefit to society, it would actually do moral harm. Material justice cannot be accomplished by compulsion; a change of heart will not follow. The only way to achieve true justice is to change people's hearts first - and then they will joyfully share their wealth.


St. John Chrysostom




rcjames -> RE: Early Church Father on Redistribution of Wealth (5/1/2008 7:46:07 PM)

Wonder why the Roman Catholic Church hangs onto its trillions.

Thanks
RC




colliefan -> RE: Early Church Father on Redistribution of Wealth (5/1/2008 9:48:38 PM)

quote:

The only way to achieve true justice is to change people's hearts first - and then they will joyfully share their wealth.


He had it right. And this is why the religous right failed.




inthysite -> RE: Early Church Father on Redistribution of Wealth (5/1/2008 10:34:10 PM)

This is exactly what the bible teaches. God says not to give under compulsion but that He loves a cheerful giver.

When the church first started after Pentecost people were selling their property and giving the proceeds to the apostles to help take care of everyones needs. But when Ananias and Sapphira held back a portion and tried to deceive everyone, Peter confronted them;

"While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

What he was basically saying was that no one forced them to sell their property and when they did no one said they had to give it all to the church, so why lie about it? Because of pride and because of greed.

quote:


Wonder why the Roman Catholic Church hangs onto its trillions.

Thanks
RC


Why do only a small percentage of church members give a tithe or give anything at all to the church? You can't lay everything at the Catholics feet. Just like any denomination there are giving churches and greedy churches.




c11bar -> RE: Early Church Father on Redistribution of Wealth (5/1/2008 11:09:40 PM)

Check out this great article about the Church and the free market.

A Catholic Defense of the Free Market

"..............All in all, state power to aggress against property owners inevitably encourages man's most predatory instincts, giving him an incentive to devote less time to satisfying the needs of his fellow men and more time to using the state's machinery of coercion to loot them for his own selfish benefit. Since the release of such instincts will seriously undermine the common good, I see no reason that someone could not cite St. Thomas's principle and thereby be perfectly at liberty to oppose expansions of state power over the economy on these grounds.

Pope John Paul II was fond of the maxim that people should be treated as ends in themselves, rather than as mere means to ends. Only the market respects this principle, since transactions are allowed to occur only when both parties give their consent. No one may employ the state's machinery of violence against another to make the latter bow to his will, hand over his money, or otherwise act against his normal inclination.

According to John Paul II, "The moral causes of prosperity . . . reside in a constellation of virtues: industriousness, competence, order, honesty, initiative, frugality, thrift, spirit of service, keeping one's word, daring -- in short, love for work well done. No system or social structure can resolve, as if by magic, the problem of poverty outside of these virtues." These are precisely the virtues that the market economy fosters.

These ideas are not foreign to Catholic tradition: The Late Scholastics of the 16th and 17th centuries favored an economy very largely free of government controls, and John Paul II's Centesimus Annus(1991) reflected an increasing appreciation for the moral and material benefits of non-coerced economic exchange. The less heed we pay to slogans and propaganda, and the more we study the question on its merits, the more attractive does the market become."




Jhud -> RE: Early Church Father on Redistribution of Wealth (5/1/2008 11:27:21 PM)

quote:

He had it right. And this is why the religous right failed.


They failed?

What happens now?




blessedinnyc -> RE: Early Church Father on Redistribution of Wealth (5/2/2008 2:19:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

He had it right. And this is why the religous right failed.


They failed?

What happens now?

We go back to offering Christianity the way Christ intended- by making disciples.

As I've seen many folks describe it, Christ's ressurection was D-Day, and not V-Day. And it's a bloody war that must be fought inch by inch, person by person. There's no shortcuts- you cannot make someone truly be moral except by changing their heart.




Jhud -> RE: Early Church Father on Redistribution of Wealth (5/2/2008 3:25:20 AM)

quote:

We go back to offering Christianity the way Christ intended- by making disciples.

As I've seen many folks describe it, Christ's ressurection was D-Day, and not V-Day. And it's a bloody war that must be fought inch by inch, person by person. There's no shortcuts- you cannot make someone truly be moral except by changing their heart.


So you will be spending less time in the political forums then?




blessedinnyc -> RE: Early Church Father on Redistribution of Wealth (5/2/2008 3:29:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

We go back to offering Christianity the way Christ intended- by making disciples.

As I've seen many folks describe it, Christ's ressurection was D-Day, and not V-Day. And it's a bloody war that must be fought inch by inch, person by person. There's no shortcuts- you cannot make someone truly be moral except by changing their heart.


So you will be spending less time in the political forums then?

What, I've already gained my two inches for the past five years- go out and gain yours'. [:D]




Jhud -> RE: Early Church Father on Redistribution of Wealth (5/2/2008 3:31:34 AM)

quote:

What, I've already gained my two inches for the past five years- go out and gain yours'.


I have a twenty year head start. [;)]




CatholicCritter -> RE: Early Church Father on Redistribution of Wealth (5/2/2008 2:54:23 PM)

quote:

Wonder why the Roman Catholic Church hangs onto its trillions.


Yeah, I'm glad I'm Catholic because the day I was baptized the Pope came through his secret tunnel to my house and gave me a $1,000,000...
Of course I have to inform on all my protestant neighbors.

This is a foolish remark based on nothing more than bigotry and laziness. You can do better than that, can't you? The Church has been, is now, and always will be the greatest and most active charity in existence, so try again.




CatholicCritter -> RE: Early Church Father on Redistribution of Wealth (5/2/2008 3:00:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: c11bar

Check out this great article about the Church and the free market.

A Catholic Defense of the Free Market

"..............All in all, state power to aggress against property owners inevitably encourages man's most predatory instincts, giving him an incentive to devote less time to satisfying the needs of his fellow men and more time to using the state's machinery of coercion to loot them for his own selfish benefit. Since the release of such instincts will seriously undermine the common good, I see no reason that someone could not cite St. Thomas's principle and thereby be perfectly at liberty to oppose expansions of state power over the economy on these grounds.

Pope John Paul II was fond of the maxim that people should be treated as ends in themselves, rather than as mere means to ends. Only the market respects this principle, since transactions are allowed to occur only when both parties give their consent. No one may employ the state's machinery of violence against another to make the latter bow to his will, hand over his money, or otherwise act against his normal inclination.

According to John Paul II, "The moral causes of prosperity . . . reside in a constellation of virtues: industriousness, competence, order, honesty, initiative, frugality, thrift, spirit of service, keeping one's word, daring -- in short, love for work well done. No system or social structure can resolve, as if by magic, the problem of poverty outside of these virtues." These are precisely the virtues that the market economy fosters.

These ideas are not foreign to Catholic tradition: The Late Scholastics of the 16th and 17th centuries favored an economy very largely free of government controls, and John Paul II's Centesimus Annus(1991) reflected an increasing appreciation for the moral and material benefits of non-coerced economic exchange. The less heed we pay to slogans and propaganda, and the more we study the question on its merits, the more attractive does the market become."


very good read, although it's clear that we already have 'semi-free' markets and people are still being used as means and not ends in themselves. coercion comes into play when economic disparity forces others to do things. in a free market, there are and will be many who have little effect on said market and so are at the whim of what those bigger fish who CAN influence the market will do. there is coercion but it's a coercion that is organic or from within the confines of a market, not coercion that is external and forced, like Hilary has gone on record as supporting.




Quasiblogo -> RE: Early Church Father on Redistribution of Wealth (5/5/2008 8:29:54 PM)

The Church has been, is now, and always will be the greatest and most active charity in existence .

Hey Critter - I understand where your coming from, but I think it would be best to emphasize that the Body of Christ, all believers in Messiah Jesus, comprises the charitable hand of God. I did like what you shared.

To some degree Protestants, Evangelicals, etc. have a decentralized wealth that added up, just might equal or surpass that of the Vatican. I don't say that to boast. I mention this to point out we all have plenty opportunity to divest ourselves of some wealth for ministering the Gospel in every sense of the word.




martyfran -> RE: Early Church Father on Redistribution of Wealth (5/14/2008 10:41:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatholicCritter

quote:

Wonder why the Roman Catholic Church hangs onto its trillions.


Yeah, I'm glad I'm Catholic because the day I was baptized the Pope came through his secret tunnel to my house and gave me a $1,000,000...
Of course I have to inform on all my protestant neighbors.

This is a foolish remark based on nothing more than bigotry and laziness. You can do better than that, can't you? The Church has been, is now, and always will be the greatest and most active charity in existence, so try again.



You have to realize that people who make such comments have no interest in learning the actual truth. RC made a similar comment in another thread several months ago claiming that the Vatican had trillions. When asked to provide the source of his information, he remained silent. When people repeatedly make these kinds of comments, it makes you wonder about whether or not they are interested in the truth, or if they are just pushing an agenda.




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