RE: US Airstrike in Somalia

RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (Full Version)

All Forums >> [General] >> Current Events

Message

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 12:33:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mcp I explained my justification for my argument earlier. But you justify saving your life over the perpetrator and say that is implied from "you shall not murder". That is the only verse you provided and it isn't explicit to when to apply or what is just cause. You want more verses? Do I need another verse to say I cannot kill myself or allow another person to take my life? It's not implies, the bible is clear that taking my own life is against the law of God, so it follows that simply allowing another person to do it is the same action. quote: You keep saying "just cause" as if you have some explicit law the government is required to follow in order to carry out war and justice. We both agree that the state is granted the authority to take life... Of course with that right comes responisbility. On what grounds can the civil government take life? When the person is justly accused... quote: I have already explained how "just cause" is determined by gov'ts. The Bible doesn't speak directly to all war scenarios. In fact, the OT is rife with many unpalatable war acts. The bible is clear on when life can be taken... Just cause determined by gov'ts doesn't trump the reason the bible says anyone can take another person life. quote: This was short hand of assumptions to conclusions. my first assumption was gov't is legitimate body from scriptural perspective; That is a given... Romans 13 makes that very clear... quote: from there I deduce they have rights to protection and justice for citizens through "just war". Agreed... quote: Then in carrying out one aspect of just war (to stay on core argument, we assume all other criteria for just wars are met) I argue that governments can have just cause for colateral damages through the criteria on jus in bello. This where you fall short.. You believe that because God ordains government, and they wage war, that surely what follows is the OK to kill people who have not done anything evil and thereby have not given anyone just cause to take their life... quote: OK, OK. Of course they are silly points. I was using absurdity to illustrate the invalidity of your original ad hominem attacks. Ad hominem attacks.? Please spare me the drama and the debate team jargon... quote: As far as just cause and gov't action in war; I look for your thoughts on this scenario (classic story)- A bridge tender takes his boy to work.... the scheduled train is coming and he is right at the point where he has to set the bridge down for the train. He notices his boy caught down in the drawworks; but he doesn't have time to save him. He has to throw the works in motion to save the train of people or climb down to get his boy and have a large accident. Is throwing the switch actively murdering his boy who is questionably innocent, or does he have just cause? Should he do nothing so that his hands are "clean" even though he could have saved the people's lives? Are there Bible verses that explicitly give him his calling on this matter? This doesn't work... The command decision to launch an attack takes into account the killing of innocent people... It's factored into the equation and there is an acceptable amount of killing of non-combatants. The father didn’t take his son to work with the idea that in the course of his duties there stood a chance in the course of his duties he would have to kil his son... We are dealing with an authority that has the right to take life, yet in order to do so there are rules... They can’t just take the life of whomever in the name of God, or the ever important mission. John

colliefan -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 12:36:07 PM)
quote: You shall not murder. The bible says "You shall not KILL." Big difference.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 12:40:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan The Islamic fanatics know we we are weak and will run from any conflict. They care not one whit about loss of life in their community or the camps of the enemy. They are evil and their sole goal is world-wide domination of Islam. And the weepy, soft liberals are going to give it to them on a silver platter. And they will have no one to turn to them that fanatics come for their heads. So the answer is to match their lack of regard for life? Isn't that what Peter did in regards to the man's ear he cut off? Thought he was all that and was going to deal with things his way... Of course the sword wasn't the issue, Jesus himself made that clear, but where one's faith does matter... I have faith in God that if we act accordingly in regards to Islamic fanatics He will deal with them... Faith in weapons, tactics and man's way of doing things isn't the recipe for success... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 12:42:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan quote: You shall not murder. The bible says "You shall not KILL." Big difference. The command is in regard to the unlawful taking of life... The bible is clear that life can be taken for just cause, so murder is the closet word to the heart of the command... John

tracydolls -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 12:49:45 PM)
quote: The Islamic fanatics know we we are weak and will run from any conflict. They care not one whit about loss of life in their community or the camps of the enemy. They are evil and their sole goal is world-wide domination of Islam. And the weepy, soft liberals are going to give it to them on a silver platter. And they will have no one to turn to them that fanatics come for their heads. LOL LOL, I guarantee you, weak, weepy or soft has never been behind my name. when do we win when, when will it all be over? how many do we kill? Liberal 7. free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners Pro 11:25 The liberal soul shall be made fat: and he that watereth shall be watered also himself. You should want the Lord to call you liberal!

colliefan -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 1:05:26 PM)
quote: when do we win when, when will it all be over? how many do we kill? When all the Islamic fanatics are dead. When was Nazism dead in Germany: when Germany was completely defeated, When was Japan's desire for world domination ended: when the A-bombs were dropped. Is this a cause for rejoicing? No. And after the war ended, we helped rebuild those countries into the powers they are today The sad fact is that evil exists in this world and to end its spread in the present its leaders must be completely defeated. But we are weak and within several centuries we will be forced to bow to Alah should this soft senimentality continue!

colliefan -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 1:15:07 PM)
The problem is that we are not fighting a country but an ideology. Our enemy does not follow the rules of war fare. All it followers want is complete domination and they will die to achieve it. And we are weak and will give them what they want to achieve "peace". But it will be no peace.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 1:30:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan The sad fact is that evil exists in this world and to end its spread in the present its leaders must be completely defeated. But we are weak and within several centuries we will be forced to bow to Alah should this soft senimentality continue! The problem is we are looking outwards so long and hard and long that our own evil is forgotten and it not Islam will be the reason we are bowing to anything... Our weakness is our lack of faith in God to see us through and the fact we have little desire to address our own issues... Maybe we need to be forced to bow to a false god so that we call out to God and not lean on ourselves... John

colliefan -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 1:33:55 PM)
quote: The problem is we are looking outwards so long and hard and long that our own evil is forgotten So everything bad in the world is our fault? And you want world domination by Islam?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 1:45:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan When was Japan's desire for world domination ended: when the A-bombs were dropped. Japan never desired world domination... They actually had hope the bloody nose at Pearl Harbor would bring about negations... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 1:46:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan So everything bad in the world is our fault? Did I say everything bad in the world is our fault? No... I said our own evil... You know that thing we ignore while chasing bad guys around the world mostly the sake of political careers... quote: And you want world domination by Islam? Is that what I said? Maybe we need to be forced to bow to a false god so that we call out to God and not lean on ourselves... Nope that's not what I said... John

trainfan -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 1:56:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan The sad fact is that evil exists in this world and to end its spread in the present its leaders must be completely defeated. But we are weak and within several centuries we will be forced to bow to Alah should this soft senimentality continue! The problem is we are looking outwards so long and hard and long that our own evil is forgotten and it not Islam will be the reason we are bowing to anything... Our weakness is our lack of faith in God to see us through and the fact we have little desire to address our own issues... Maybe we need to be forced to bow to a false god so that we call out to God and not lean on ourselves... John So you're saying that if we clean our own house, so to speak, Islam will just disappear? Interesting theory. If everyone thought like that years ago we would all be speaking German or Japanese by now (if we were even here). Prior to WWII we spent a long time ignoring what was going on in the world. I wonder how many people could have been saved had the US acted sooner. I'm interested in what you think of people who were in things like the Dutch resistance during WWII. Many (not all) were Christians yet they spent most of their time breaking the law, hiding Jews, passing intelligence to the Allies, sabatoging infrastructure, etc. which I'm sure in some cases resulted in the death of innocent people.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 2:00:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: trainfan So you're saying that if we clean our own house, so to speak, Islam will just disappear? I never said that... quote: Interesting theory. Are you talking about the one you made up? quote: I'm interested in what you think of people who were in things like the Dutch resistance during WWII. Many (not all) were Christians yet they spent most of their time breaking the law, hiding Jews, passing intelligence to the Allies, sabatoging infrastructure, etc. which I'm sure in some cases resulted in the death of innocent people. I never argued that all of man's laws and or actions are lawful... John

trainfan -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 2:35:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: trainfan So you're saying that if we clean our own house, so to speak, Islam will just disappear? I never said that... quote: Interesting theory. Are you talking about the one you made up? John This ^ is why I try to stay out of current events unless I get really bored. I wasn't really clear on what you were trying to say and was only asking for clarification, but never mind. [8\|]

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 3:00:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: trainfan I wasn't really clear on what you were trying to say and was only asking for clarification, but never mind. [8\|] You were making a point, not asking a question... You ask a question and than answered it, and proceeded to make your point... So you're saying that if we clean our own house, so to speak, Islam will just disappear? Interesting theory. If everyone thought like that years ago we would all be speaking German or Japanese by now (if we were even here). Prior to WWII we spent a long time ignoring what was going on in the world. I wonder how many people could have been saved had the US acted sooner. John

trainfan -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 3:43:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: trainfan I wasn't really clear on what you were trying to say and was only asking for clarification, but never mind. [8\|] You were making a point, not asking a question... You ask a question and than answered it, and proceeded to make your point... So you're saying that if we clean our own house, so to speak, Islam will just disappear? Interesting theory. If everyone thought like that years ago we would all be speaking German or Japanese by now (if we were even here). Prior to WWII we spent a long time ignoring what was going on in the world. I wonder how many people could have been saved had the US acted sooner. John Cool you have mastered how to quote what I already said but have said nothing to clarify your point even though I pointed out I was not clear what your point was. quote: So you're saying that if we clean our own house, so to speak, Islam will just disappear? What part of that is not a question? It's worded like a question and ends in a question mark,what did I miss? I provided a response to what I thought you meant, if that is not what you meant you have an oppourtunity to make your point. Instead of doing that you argue over whether I asked a question or made a statement. Like I said never mind. I have better things to do like watching the grass grow. [8\|] Edited to fix a typo.

mcp -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 3:48:43 PM)
quote: You want more verses? Do I need another verse to say I cannot kill myself or allow another person to take my life? It's not implies, the bible is clear that taking my own life is against the law of God, so it follows that simply allowing another person to do it is the same action. Forget the explicit verses against suicide. I want the verse that says that allowing another person to kill you (to avoid killing him in defense) is suicide. quote: so it follows that simply Do you know what imply means? Cause I don't agree that we have a right to self defense only because it would otherwise be suicidal. That is nonsense and your interpretation of scripture (not explicit referenced). You just got finished attacking me earlier for my being aware that the bible is not explicit over specific laws in the conduct of war, then you tell everyone here that "it simply follows [to suicide]". Your concerns are valid for the innocents, but your biblical and logical justification is unacceptable. quote: This where you fall short.. You believe that because God ordains government, and they wage war, that surely what follows is the OK to kill people who have not done anything evil and thereby have not given anyone just cause to take their life... This was just a map of how I as a Christian get from that ordained-by-God to rules of war not explicitly stated in the Bible. I explained some of the "surely what follows" in earlier arguements; again this was just the outline of my thought process not my whole argument. Theologians have argued these issues for eons; so to turn it around on you again, the onus is now on you to prove (explicit Bible verses) that our gov't is unjust in this particular decision (assuming they knew a certain number of innocents would die). Otherwise you need a better contextual biblical argument. quote: Ad hominem attacks.? Please spare me the drama and the debate team jargon... your op's: "I guess when the right color of people start being the collateral damage people will take notice.. ""We are better than those we kill... God is on our side. ""The means are justifiable because we say so… I keep waiting for Elwood to say “We’re on a mission from God…” Maybe someday another country will declare the US evil and deal with us... " ....You spare me the sideshow antics and the false arguments[;)].

mcp -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 3:51:03 PM)
quote: quote: As far as just cause and gov't action in war; I look for your thoughts on this scenario (classic story)- A bridge tender takes his boy to work.... the scheduled train is coming and he is right at the point where he has to set the bridge down for the train. He notices his boy caught down in the drawworks; but he doesn't have time to save him. He has to throw the works in motion to save the train of people or climb down to get his boy and have a large accident. Is throwing the switch actively murdering his boy who is questionably innocent, or does he have just cause? Should he do nothing so that his hands are "clean" even though he could have saved the people's lives? Are there Bible verses that explicitly give him his calling on this matter? This doesn't work... The command decision to launch an attack takes into account the killing of innocent people... It's factored into the equation and there is an acceptable amount of killing of non-combatants. The father didn’t take his son to work with the idea that in the course of his duties there stood a chance in the course of his duties he would have to kil his son... We are dealing with an authority that has the right to take life, yet in order to do so there are rules... They can’t just take the life of whomever in the name of God, or the ever important mission. Nice try- You misinterpret the tie between the two scenarios. The main issue here is timeframe. We don't know that the father ever had a "plan of action" if his son ever put him in such a scenario. But the justification of collateral damage (in my opinion) includes the assessment of imminent danger to the masses by not getting the bad guys in a short window of time. If there is high probability of getting these guys by waiting with no additional loss of life, then yes, collateral damage would be wrong. The father had the unfortunate situation of quick action under threat of imminent danger (in both directions); we hope he took the lesser death count. Or maybe he should not actively do anything but pray and leave the drawworks as they are so that his hands aren't "bloody" by actively affecting fate.

tracydolls -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 5:56:59 PM)
We are simply chasing smoke; I mean now it's came down to "he's there," No, there's one". War is in the Bible I agree. This one is ordained from G_D also. I just don't think we are the "holier than thou" people. We know what is good for the world. We don't own the world. Cannot control it. therefore we cannot stop Islam. Only G-D can. Only He can say who should be murdered/killed. We think we know, but I say we just chasing smoke. It's hard to justify the killing of innocents. I can't do it, I don't see any Bible Verses that back it up. I believe that Moslems need Jesus as we all do. Who does'nt? But bombs don't bring Him. I'm pretty sure there will be some Moslems brothers in Heaven. Our gov'ts are too corrupt. All of them.

colliefan -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 6:48:17 PM)
quote: It's hard to justify the killing of innocents. I can't do it, I don't see any Bible Verses that back it up. Go tp the OT. Israel was command to wipe out their enemies. I am NOT saying that we are to do this, but in war inocents will be killed. They key is to minimize the loss of life.

colliefan -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 6:53:42 PM)
quote: Japan never desired world domination... They actually had hope the bloody nose at Pearl Harbor would bring about negations... John And were where you fed this bit of revisionist history? In our excellent - cough, cough - public school system? And I am sure the Japense soliders were nice to our soilders and there never was such a thing as the Batam Death March? And I am sure the Korean women were treated with the utmost of respect?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 8:31:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan And were where you fed this bit of revisionist history? In our excellent - cough, cough - public school system? Actually I went to <cough> Catholic School... And I doubt you have more or have read more books than I have on the subject of World War II... Japan goal wasn't world domination... They wanted the United States to back of regarding China and after the West stopped selling the the raw materials to make war goods they felt they had to act... It's common knowledge that the plan was to push so far, maintain what was taken and from a position of power attempt to negetous a settlement... Whoever told you that Japan's desire was world domination is sadly mistaken... quote: And I am sure the Japense soliders were nice to our soilders and there never was such a thing as the Batam Death March? Funny you should mention that, I have been there... Walked the part of the path... As well the islands Guam, Wake Island, Okiniawa, Japan, and Korea... The brutality of the Japanese soldier was well known and once the myth surrounding them was busted on Guadalcanal it was only a matter of time... As Yamamoto mentioned to many and even in writing that if a peace wasn't found soon after Pearl Harbor and America was allowed to bring about her industry to make the machines of war it would be over for Japan sooner than later...Of course we had broken their code , which helped turn the tide regarding the battle of Midway, it also allowed us to ambush the Adm. Yamamoto and shoot him down while his plane attempted to land… P-38’s I believe where the planes… quote: And I am sure the Korean women were treated with the utmost of respect? You forgot the Chinese and the Vietnamese as well... Or that while only 2 of 100 GI's captured died at the hands of the Nazis, 33 out of 100 died at the hands of the Japaneese. Many man died mininig coal and it was only by the grace of the man replacing they were buried and not left there to rot... I have libary of books on World War 11... Autograps from Chuck Yeager, Joe Foss and the wingman of Richard I. Bong(who happenes to live close by here...), you know the leading ace of the United States with 40 kills, who later died as a test pilot at Edwards AFB... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 8:32:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: trainfan Cool you have mastered how to quote what I already said but have said nothing to clarify your point even though I pointed out I was not clear what your point was. I figured since you can read my mind there was no point... [8D] John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 8:43:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mcp Forget the explicit verses against suicide. I want the verse that says that allowing another person to kill you (to avoid killing him in defense) is suicide. Given... quote: so it follows that simply Do you know what imply means? Cause I don't agree that we have a right to self defense only because it would otherwise be suicidal. Didn't say it was the only one, though it alone covers it... I don't believe it's the only reason, but it's a reason and that's all I need... I don't need 5 reasons... quote: That is nonsense and your interpretation of scripture (not explicit referenced). I thought it was common knowledge... Sorry... quote: You just got finished attacking me earlier for my being aware that the bible is not explicit over specific laws in the conduct of war, then you tell everyone here that "it simply follows [to suicide]". Your concerns are valid for the innocents, but your biblical and logical justification is unacceptable. I didn't make the leap you did... And I am not attempting to make a case for killing innocent people... A rather large distinction... quote: This was just a map of how I as a Christian get from that ordained-by-God to rules of war not explicitly stated in the Bible. I explained some of the "surely what follows" in earlier arguements; again this was just the outline of my thought process not my whole argument. Theologians have argued these issues for eons; so to turn it around on you again, the onus is now on you to prove (explicit Bible verses) that our gov't is unjust in this particular decision (assuming they knew a certain number of innocents would die). Otherwise you need a better contextual biblical argument. You wish to make a cause for killing innocent people and the onus is on me to show where that is wrong? quote: I guess when the right color of people start being the collateral damage people will take notice.. Do you really believe the above is out of line? Do you think if a JDAM bomb landed in a neighborhood in some subrub of America and killed 12 people to get one bad guy there wouldn't be a uproar? Please... quote: ""We are better than those we kill... God is on our side. ""The means are justifiable because we say so… I didn't make these up myself... From years of debating on this forum these are part of collection... I used to have a web site that had quotes like these on it... quote: I keep waiting for Elwood to say “We’re on a mission from God…” I thought this was rather funny... But then again I am big Blues Brother fan... quote: Maybe someday another country will declare the US evil and deal with us... " Are we above being called evil???? John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/3/2008 8:52:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mcp Nice try- You misinterpret the tie between the two scenarios. The one that is as far the east is if from the west? quote: The main issue here is timeframe. We don't know that the father ever had a "plan of action" if his son ever put him in such a scenario. Highly doubtful... quote: But the justification of collateral damage (in my opinion) includes the assessment of imminent danger to the masses by not getting the bad guys in a short window of time. Anyone that doesn't factor the fact that killing innocent people is going to fuel the fire is lacking... quote: Or maybe he should not actively do anything but pray and leave the drawworks as they are so that his hands aren't "bloody" by actively affecting fate. Or just blow the whole place up and call it even... John

Page: << < prev 5 6 [7] 8 9 next > >>

Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI