Why? Where Have We Gone Wrong?

Why? Where Have We Gone Wrong? (Full Version)

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CherishedbyGod -> Why? Where Have We Gone Wrong? (4/30/2008 8:31:25 PM)
Where have we, as a church, gone wrong? A few weekends ago, I had the incredible privledge of spending alot of time with woman in the maximum security wing of our county jail. At first I was aghast as the language was often foul and swear words flew from many tongues. But then as I looked closer, I saw women with bruises on their faces from beatings, I heard anger in voices of those who had been rejected, abandoned, abused. And, I also saw...Bibles...many women with Bibles. Desperately searching for hope. Over the course of the time and God's providence I was drawn to many but especially to a beautiful woman, who I will call Rebecca. She is so pretty and full of energy. I was finally able to hear part of her story through her. Her father is a well-known physician in town and Rebecca was writing her own perscriptions for herself... Her sin finally caught up with her and she was arrested, booked and is spending months in jail. But the story that broke my heart was when she was placed under a suicide watch in the jail. She told me she was thrown into a cell which had a hard, cold, cement floor. In the center of the floor was a hole where she was to go to the bathroom. No toilet paper was given her. She was freezing. Her meals were passed to her through a slit in the wall. She grew more and more desperate. She was allowed to see noone. Anyone that is familiar with someone who is contemplating suicide or has tried to commit suicide will know that these conditions were from hell, slapped upon a young woman whose heart was broken and shattered. I found out that she and I went to the same church for several years. The pastor of that church at the time was one that "took a stand". He often told us how other ministries were, in essence, not as good or Bible-based as our church was. And yet that same pastor was so void of God's love that that church eventually had a horrible split and many people left, wounded and shattered like my Rebecca who was in that cell and treated so horribly. Jesus said ~I was in prison and ye visited me~. How in the world can we think it is more important to "take a stand" against sin and yet let people like this dear Rebecca sink so low while noone went after this lost little lamb? I heard Rebecca say to her best jail-friend that she was going to start praying again. But I ask you, dear brothers and sisters in Christ, where have we gone wrong? Why are we not Jesus to these dear souls who so desperately need Him? Why do we point our finger at their sin and yet refuse to help lift the burden that the enemy has almost drowned them in?

SonInMe1 -> RE: Why? Where Have We Gone Wrong? (4/30/2008 9:48:04 PM)
There will always be failures. Churches...are human too. It is a tragedy when a church goes bad, no doubt. There is much fallout. People go by the wayside. I think...what we can do is what you are doing. Be there when the fall happens...and it will happen, many times to all of us. I don't care how perfect you are and how legal you are and what a great christian you are...stuff happens. Pray. Get involved. Start your own ministry, where you have been led to do so. Tithe. Offerings, so those who are called to ministries can perform them. Be encouraging.

ladyichigo -> RE: Why? Where Have We Gone Wrong? (4/30/2008 9:59:55 PM)
I think it's got something to do with the church (not all churches) going cold. I think its serving itself, in that most of the ministries are for those who just want to be fed, and not necessarily get equipped to serve outside the church walls because they want to stay in their "comfort zone". For those who wish for meat, receive none, but are pushed out to go and serve/evangelize, without proper equipping. Our church is filled with either pew warmers and veteran Christians still drinking milk who do not want to be weaned, or those who WANT and NEED meat, but not get it and instead are ministering to those veteran Christians, and pew warmers and serving outside evangelizing only to return feeling spent and burned because they are ill-equipped.

zamdad -> RE: Why? Where Have We Gone Wrong? (4/30/2008 11:29:32 PM)
quote: But I ask you, dear brothers and sisters in Christ, where have we gone wrong? Why are we not Jesus to these dear souls who so desperately need Him? Why do we point our finger at their sin and yet refuse to help lift the burden that the enemy has almost drowned them in? I'll try and respond gently. As you may well know as I have stated this repeatedly on these forums, I have spent the past 16 years working in the field of corrections. Both behind the walls and in the community. We have gone wrong by allowing sin to continue and allowing people to make the choices that result in consequences. Then we have gone wrong by confusing God's love with enabling. We have gone wrong because we have adopted the ways of the world to our own approach to ministering to others. We have programmed ministry to the point that we have forgotten how to relate to one another. While jail ministry is respectable and desperately needed, how often do we think about the ministry that follows that convict out the door of that facility? OUr recidivism rate is so high because most offenders find connecting with the community at large to be difficult partly because of the restrictions placed on them following their arrest/conviction and, secondly, because members of the community fear getting too close. The answer to alleviating our jail crowding issues is to address sin issues before they get to that point and then, if they do go that far, to continue to follow through with an individual post release. But, so many in the church figure that we pay people to do this, therefore, there is no need for them to become involved. It's never a personal issue until it hits home. IN a sense, it's community policing. Solving criminal issues at the root. It takes courage. Something we, the church, seem to be lacking.

pstrdebi -> RE: Why? Where Have We Gone Wrong? (5/1/2008 2:00:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad We have gone wrong by allowing sin to continue and allowing people to make the choices that result in consequences. Then we have gone wrong by confusing God's love with enabling. Amen. There comes a point when you need to set them on thier feet and pray that they make right choices. quote: While jail ministry is respectable and desperately needed, how often do we think about the ministry that follows that convict out the door of that facility? OUr recidivism rate is so high because most offenders find connecting with the community at large to be difficult partly because of the restrictions placed on them following their arrest/conviction and, secondly, because members of the community fear getting too close. Even when you do the follow-up care... ultimately the choice is theirs. Sometimes folks think that you are love-less because you "take a stand" against sin. Recently my husband and I became aware of the 'fall' of a woman that we have known for going on 3 years. This woman is a meth-addict who has already had her children removed from the home in the past because of her hard-hearted, selfish neglect of these 3 and 5 year old (at the time) children. When we first met her, she had just gotten her children back. During the past 3 years she has fallen back into meth over 10 times... each time leaving her children at risk. Once the mother-in-law found the little girl walking in the dark by herself in her nightgown by the highway while this woman was passed out at home. When my husband and I became aware of her fall, once again... we found out that her children had been removed from the home again. She was due for a visit from CPS and was in no state for this visit. We went to her house... which was the worst pig-stye you could ever picture... and we cleaned it. We got her in the shower and prepared her for the visit. We then took her into our home while she detoxed... and while I spent countless hours on the phone obtaining a Christian facility for her to go into. For two weeks we worked on getting her clean... taking her to the courthouse, the CPS office, drug testing offices, etc. etc. We got her on a plane to Texas and into a facility that has an 86% success rate. However... she couldn't handle the rules, and came home after 2 weeks. She came to our home again and for another 2 weeks we were taxi drivers, counselors, pastors, cooks, wet nurses, liasons... you name it... we were it!!!! Last week she made her choice. The wrong choice. I am in no way patting our backs.... I am simply pointing out that we are not hard hearted bible thumping individuals who do not love. We can pour out love... we can pour out ourselves... we can tell them repent... we can do all that Jesus asks us to do. But... Ultimately the choice is theirs. If we enable... we are doing more harm than good. People need to know there is consequences for their sin. I appreciate your heart for the hurting. Praise God for your love. Pastor Debi

deliveredarling -> RE: Why? Where Have We Gone Wrong? (5/1/2008 5:59:39 AM)
As a recovered alcoholic , I can attest to what Zamdad is saying. Christians who want to do good and to love these people into wellness are feeding themselves more than they are feeding these sheep. Let me explain that remark and why i said it. First of all, there is a lot of "do gooding" out there. Motivations need to be checked and thoroughly examined before one steps into these fields. they are a battleground of only which God can prepare. That is the most important part!Having an understanding of what addiction is like, knowing what you are dealing with is another. The drug use and abuse is the SYMPTOM of a deeper problem. (There is a rotten root to the tree). What I have seen over and over in this ministry is heartbreak. Hearts broken for themselves. The tendency to believe that "we" can heal and love people into changing their ways. Friends, let me tell you from the get go, this does not happen. We have to remember Who is in control and it is not us. We can harm them and totally love them to their death by not taking a stand and rebuking the sin. We can tell them over and over how much Jesus loves them, but until they decide that is what they want, our efforts are futile. This is not a criticism, it's what I have learned in working with alcoholics and addicts . It;s not a glamorous job and certainly things are not always peachy keen. We have to remeber that those who are in jail/prison, are there for a reason. Their conditions that they live in are not meant to be comfortable. Why encourage them to get comfy instead of "encouraging" them to do the work needed for their exit? Jail/prison is the consequence of their action. We shouldn't remove the consequences, but rather love them through the consequence. Consequences are key issues in addiction. By removing them or preventing them, we are ENABLING them to continue in their sin. It is not loving to do this. One more key thing in dealing with addicts and alcoholics is, if you are not right within yourself and with God, you can not help others. He tells us to examine ourselves lest we be tempted. Working with these people puts us right in the middle of the pit. We have to be prayed up and right with Him first and foremost. People insist on saying that they do not need to have their sins pointed out. They do know what they are doing is wrong. However, admitting it is the first step, acknowledging there is a problem. An unwillingness to do this indicates a heart not ready for Jesus. The road for them may be longer. Remember that with addicts and alcoholics, their actions alway speak louder than their words. You are dealing with mast manipulators, those in survival mode. Not surviving to live, surviving to get high! One can easily be deceived so use caution. Always wear your armor[;)]

SonInMe1 -> RE: Why? Where Have We Gone Wrong? (5/1/2008 8:29:19 AM)
quote: Christians who want to do good and to love these people into wellness are feeding themselves more than they are feeding these sheep. Certainly. I have seen people in ministries just to be seen in a ministry. Oh they serve the church here and there and give this and that and are always at the church...but you know everything they have done for the Lord because they tell you...over and over. quote: We can harm them and totally love them to their death by not taking a stand and rebuking the sin. amen and amen

Ignited-Faith -> RE: Why? Where Have We Gone Wrong? (5/1/2008 9:17:07 AM)
Deliveredarling, quote: As a recovered alcoholic , I can attest to what Zamdad is saying. Christians who want to do good and to love these people into wellness are feeding themselves more than they are feeding these sheep. Let me explain that remark and why i said it. First of all, there is a lot of "do gooding" out there. Motivations need to be checked and thoroughly examined before one steps into these fields. they are a battleground of only which God can prepare. That is the most important part!Having an understanding of what addiction is like, knowing what you are dealing with is another. The drug use and abuse is the SYMPTOM of a deeper problem. (There is a rotten root to the tree). What I have seen over and over in this ministry is heartbreak. Hearts broken for themselves. The tendency to believe that "we" can heal and love people into changing their ways. Friends, let me tell you from the get go, this does not happen. We have to remember Who is in control and it is not us. We can harm them and totally love them to their death by not taking a stand and rebuking the sin. We can tell them over and over how much Jesus loves them, but until they decide that is what they want, our efforts are futile. This is not a criticism, it's what I have learned in working with alcoholics and addicts . It;s not a glamorous job and certainly things are not always peachy keen. We have to remeber that those who are in jail/prison, are there for a reason. Their conditions that they live in are not meant to be comfortable. Why encourage them to get comfy instead of "encouraging" them to do the work needed for their exit? Jail/prison is the consequence of their action. We shouldn't remove the consequences, but rather love them through the consequence. Consequences are key issues in addiction. By removing them or preventing them, we are ENABLING them to continue in their sin. It is not loving to do this. One more key thing in dealing with addicts and alcoholics is, if you are not right within yourself and with God, you can not help others. He tells us to examine ourselves lest we be tempted. Working with these people puts us right in the middle of the pit. We have to be prayed up and right with Him first and foremost. People insist on saying that they do not need to have their sins pointed out. They do know what they are doing is wrong. However, admitting it is the first step, acknowledging there is a problem. An unwillingness to do this indicates a heart not ready for Jesus. The road for them may be longer. Remember that with addicts and alcoholics, their actions alway speak louder than their words. You are dealing with mast manipulators, those in survival mode. Not surviving to live, surviving to get high! One can easily be deceived so use caution. Always wear your armor Deliveredarling, Thank you for the great insight you have shared! Someone I love is being tormented by a drug addict/alcoholic/etc. What you said sheds so much light on things! I have NOT heard Pastors or Counselors explain it like you just did. THANK you! (May God please help us all!)

timf -> RE: Why? Where Have We Gone Wrong? (5/1/2008 9:47:19 AM)
where have we gone wrong? 1. Jesus warned His disciples about the "leaven" of the Pharisees. Leaven describes pervasive and progressive infestation. Study the characteristics of the Pharisees and you can see how we have brought in and often institutionalized this "leaven". 2. The high regard people had for Hellenistic philosophy like rhetoric, the idea of catechetical schools following the Greek idea of the academy, and the elevation of good speakers and clever thinkers to positions of power and control all worked to turn living Christianity into organizational ritual often "making the cross of Christ of none effect". 3. The first part of Revelation is a letter to seven churches. Some of these churches had significant problems. The church at Laodicea sounds like it describes the church today. Material prosperity has often made God seem inconsequential and even unnecessary. 4. The Imperial edict that Christianity would become a wholly owned subsidiary of the Roman Empire was a tragic day. It brought in every kind of political and economic opportunist as well as the inclusion of various pagan practices. The Reformation 1200 years later only made a small dent in the damage caused by making Christianity an organizational system. Satan has been working for millenia to subvert the Church. Part of his subversion is to use the idea of church to advance his collectivist plans. Since he cannot be everywhere at once, he needs the world enslaved by collectivism to leverage his influence. Churches today often reflect this advanced stage of collectivism when people almost cannot think of acting as an individual but only as part of a church. Often when you talk about a problem, people often first think what action can a church take instead of what does the Lord want me to do. Satan has so woven church practice into the systems of the world that people who live like George Muller (by faith) are seen as looney, anachronistic, or irresponsible. Today most Christians live by faith in employment, education, savings, government, and doing what they are told to. This leaves little room for trusting God and being led by the Spirit. Most Christians today would be hard pressed to talk to anyone about Jesus or help anyone dealing with difficulty. They would want to give them a book to read, plug the person into a program, or refer them to a "trained" counselor. Instead of being ashamed that they have so little of the Lord to offer themselves, they think they are being faithful by pointing to established systems. There is a "normal" Christian life that is by faith, walking by the Spirit, and in the power of the Lord. This "normal" life is very rare. Some times Christians are so concerned about doing the "right" things and having the "right" programs, that they completely ignore the people in their church. Christianity is about one Christian ministering to another. If we end up all relating to an organization instead of to each other, there can be no real ministry. Organizations cannot do relationships, only individuals can. If your church does not help you in your ministry or even tries to stop or control your ministry, find a church that helps rather than hinders. I found out that she and I went to the same church for several years. If you didn't get to know a person in your church for several years, your church was too big. If you knew the person but never got a chance to develop a relationship, your church was too busy. If you knew the person and had opportunities to talk with them, but didn't, your church did not equip you for real ministry. You can look at this person who has "fallen through the cracks" and ask, what would Jesus have done for this person when they were in the church. Your church should be helping you grow into the image of Christ so that you would do what Jesus would have. We have a responsibility as Christians to become more Christ-like. If our church is not helping us to do this, we need to find another church. If we cannot find another church (more and more are going after the world), we should look for an older and wiser Christian who shows the light and love of Christ in their life and ask them to help us know Jesus like they do. While it is tragic to consider someone from our church who ends up in jail, it is even more tragic to consider the millions more who end up as followers of the religion of secularism. Our churches have become so devoid of the power of the Lord that it seems little change to leave Him completely. Like Saul, they do not even notice the absence of the Lord.

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Why? Where Have We Gone Wrong? (5/1/2008 2:12:07 PM)
Wow, There is alot of intensity in each answer and I appreciate the thoughtfulness and the diversity of views within the body of Christ. For now, I will only address a couple of posters in replying. Zamdad, No, I did not realize you work in corrections. That helps me understand a little more where you come from. I heard the way the sheriffs yell at the prisoners, so I imagine you are around that all the time. However, throwing someone onto a hard concrete floor, alone, frightened, cold and suicidal is about the cruelest thing one can do. I know, because I tried to commit suicide. There is no known desolation greater than a soul that is so desperate to want to do anything to escape the pain even if it means to take one's own life. It is absolutely abhorrant to me that this beautiful young lady was treated this way. It sickens me and makes me weep. There is absolutely no excuse for a civilized society to treat another human being like that no matter what she did to bring herself into jail. Yelling at prisoners, and treating them as above only makes their heart harder and harder and harder as they try to protect themselves from the pain of such calleousness. And then when they get out of jail, it is that much more tempting to sin again because their hearts have been hardened so. It is obvious something is desperatly wrong! And the church is failing these people! Even making it worse for them in some instances. And, frankly you associating me with Reverend Wright and yelling at me to just get over it was very offensive not only to me but to my dearest Lord.

pstrdebi -> RE: Why? Where Have We Gone Wrong? (5/1/2008 2:12:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deliveredarling As a recovered alcoholic , I can attest to what Zamdad is saying. Christians who want to do good and to love these people into wellness are feeding themselves more than they are feeding these sheep. Let me explain that remark and why i said it. First of all, there is a lot of "do gooding" out there. Motivations need to be checked and thoroughly examined before one steps into these fields. they are a battleground of only which God can prepare. That is the most important part!Having an understanding of what addiction is like, knowing what you are dealing with is another. The drug use and abuse is the SYMPTOM of a deeper problem. (There is a rotten root to the tree). What I have seen over and over in this ministry is heartbreak. Hearts broken for themselves. The tendency to believe that "we" can heal and love people into changing their ways. Friends, let me tell you from the get go, this does not happen. We have to remember Who is in control and it is not us. We can harm them and totally love them to their death by not taking a stand and rebuking the sin. We can tell them over and over how much Jesus loves them, but until they decide that is what they want, our efforts are futile. This is not a criticism, it's what I have learned in working with alcoholics and addicts . It;s not a glamorous job and certainly things are not always peachy keen. We have to remeber that those who are in jail/prison, are there for a reason. Their conditions that they live in are not meant to be comfortable. Why encourage them to get comfy instead of "encouraging" them to do the work needed for their exit? Jail/prison is the consequence of their action. We shouldn't remove the consequences, but rather love them through the consequence. Consequences are key issues in addiction. By removing them or preventing them, we are ENABLING them to continue in their sin. It is not loving to do this. One more key thing in dealing with addicts and alcoholics is, if you are not right within yourself and with God, you can not help others. He tells us to examine ourselves lest we be tempted. Working with these people puts us right in the middle of the pit. We have to be prayed up and right with Him first and foremost. People insist on saying that they do not need to have their sins pointed out. They do know what they are doing is wrong. However, admitting it is the first step, acknowledging there is a problem. An unwillingness to do this indicates a heart not ready for Jesus. The road for them may be longer. Remember that with addicts and alcoholics, their actions alway speak louder than their words. You are dealing with mast manipulators, those in survival mode. Not surviving to live, surviving to get high! One can easily be deceived so use caution. Always wear your armor[;)] HOO - RAH!!! ...as my former Marine, pastor and husband would say! You rock!! Much love and appreciation for you... Pastor Debi

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Why? Where Have We Gone Wrong? (5/1/2008 2:42:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: timf Most Christians today would be hard pressed to talk to anyone about Jesus or help anyone dealing with difficulty. They would want to give them a book to read, plug the person into a program, or refer them to a "trained" counselor. Instead of being ashamed that they have so little of the Lord to offer themselves, they think they are being faithful by pointing to established systems. There is a "normal" Christian life that is by faith, walking by the Spirit, and in the power of the Lord. This "normal" life is very rare. Some times Christians are so concerned about doing the "right" things and having the "right" programs, that they completely ignore the people in their church. Christianity is about one Christian ministering to another. If we end up all relating to an organization instead of to each other, there can be no real ministry. Organizations cannot do relationships, only individuals can. If your church does not help you in your ministry or even tries to stop or control your ministry, find a church that helps rather than hinders. I have not been able to find that church! I found out that she and I went to the same church for several years. If you didn't get to know a person in your church for several years, your church was too big. If you knew the person but never got a chance to develop a relationship, your church was too busy. If you knew the person and had opportunities to talk with them, but didn't, your church did not equip you for real ministry. The church we went to was too big. And it never went after sheep that wandered away[:(] You can look at this person who has "fallen through the cracks" and ask, what would Jesus have done for this person when they were in the church. Your church should be helping you grow into the image of Christ so that you would do what Jesus would have. No, they did not help me grow into the image of Christ and the importance of being conformed to His image was rarely stressed We have a responsibility as Christians to become more Christ-like. If our church is not helping us to do this, we need to find another church. If we cannot find another church (more and more are going after the world), we should look for an older and wiser Christian who shows the light and love of Christ in their life and ask them to help us know Jesus like they do. timf, I have been looking for that church for 30 years. I feel like giving up on church. I so long to find Jesus in the midst of His church!! I have longed for it for so long! Yes there are a few individuals. Maybe that is what I need to do. Ask the Lord to bring me that precious sister in the Lord that will help me and others. While it is tragic to consider someone from our church who ends up in jail, it is even more tragic to consider the millions more who end up as followers of the religion of secularism. Our churches have become so devoid of the power of the Lord that it seems little change to leave Him completely. Like Saul, they do not even notice the absence of the Lord. It is so sad! From your post, I know you understand where I am coming from! Thank you! Thank you, so much!

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