Team of Rivals - Another name for the church? (Full Version)

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Liveloved -> Team of Rivals - Another name for the church? (4/30/2008 12:16:30 PM)

I've just begun reading the book, Team of Rivals, by Doris Kearns Goodwin on the political genius of Abraham Lincoln. When I picked the book up at the library, I read the inside jacket cover and was intrigued by this statement.

"That Lincoln succeeded, Goodwin demonstrates, was the result of a character that had been forged by experiences that raised him above his more privileged and accomplished rivals. He won because he possessed an extraordinary ability to put himself in the place of other men, to experience what they were feeling, to understand their motives and desires."

As I read this statement, I thought this is the work Jesus wants to do in us and is a picture of what the true church is. . .it begins as a group of talented, gifted men and women who are passionately pursuing Jesus. In the early days and years, it is more competitive and rivalry seems to dominate. As experiences do their forging work within, we are humbled and through that humbling, the Lord raises up His workmen. He gives us the ability to see others as God sees, to get into their skin, their experience, their feelings, motives and desires. And then the competing rivals become a team. . .God's team to do God's work in the world.

I'm eager to read on but wanted to share my 'first thoughts' with you. Do you have any to add?



iamjc-s -> RE: Team of Rivals - Another name for the church? (4/30/2008 12:24:40 PM)

quote:

He won because he possessed an extraordinary ability to put himself in the place of other men, to experience what they were feeling, to understand their motives and desires."

Yes, the only ones Lincoln couldn't were the wicked one's that instigated his assassination.



Liveloved -> RE: Team of Rivals - Another name for the church? (5/2/2008 1:30:17 PM)

I guess I am desiring for others to see and acknowledge the beauty of what Lincoln did. The desire and ability to see the best in others (which is love as defined by God) and then to work with others of very different temperaments and abilities (even beliefs) for God's glory is such a need in the church today.

Instead of believing the best and working together, I see jealousy, envy, and hatefulness all around. That was our experience within the organized church as well.

Anyway, I am thankful to see Lincoln displaying these much needed godly qualities through his life. It seems to be a demonstration of the 'body' principle that Paul taught us regarding the church. We are all members of one body but with very different functions. How do we honor those who are less seemly (becoming)? How do we acknowlege the importance and needfulness of each part? Do we see the beauty and value of each member of His body?

I think it is an important topic in need of thought. . .and action.



Focusing -> RE: Team of Rivals - Another name for the church? (5/3/2008 8:27:12 PM)

Do we see the beauty and value of each member of His body?

Do we ... no, which is very sad. The attitude, in my experience, is we need this done ... which popular, beautiful person should we talk into doing this? Okay, that was a bit of a sarcastic statement, but it did get my point across.

Everyone has a desire to feel needed and wanted. Unfortunately, many are overlooked. For instance, the elderly gentleman at my previous church. He was retired, went to the church and kept it clean ... he dusted and polished the podium, he made sure there were no candy wrappers or water bottles left in the church after services or events, he cleaned the bathrooms, he tidied up the choir room, the fellowship hall, the kitchen, the meeting rooms, etc. He did all this without being asked, because he saw the need and did it. Do you know how much thanks he received? That's right ... none. Not that he was doing it for the attention, but was he valued? By the few who knew he did it, yes. But by 99% of the other members of the church? No. No thanks. No appreciation. No value. As humans, I think we do have a tendency to desire these things ... being needed and being wanted and being valued. While some of these things are a selfish human desire, we have them.

I think rather than overlooking someone and their abilities, talents, desire to help ... simply because they can only offer 2 hours to help rather than 8, they are oftentimes overlooked ... because they can't fill a slot in a certain part of the choir, or they don't carry a tune well, should they be overlooked? Can they help out in other areas ... copying the music for the books, preparing the slides for the songs being projected, etc? Just because someone is not the best cook for those famous church potlucks, don't overlook them ... can they purchase/prepare some of the basic things, such as the salad, the bread, set the tables, there are numerous things that need to be taken care of.

I do believe that willing hearts need to be encouraged and included. Whether they have huge talent, large finances, lots of extra time on their hands ... or not ... it's including others that truly makes them part of the family.


These are just some things off the top of my head.


I think it is an important topic in need of thought. . .and action.

Thank you LL, I agree with you.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Team of Rivals - Another name for the church? (5/4/2008 7:28:39 PM)

Leadership and direction are lacking in many churches today. It can't just be doctrine.

A church is a place for encouragement....toward....a goal. Its not just a place where you go to feel good. If so we should all meet in brothels and bars. There must be a direction and geting in that direction means we must be directed.

There is only one Director. If the church is not about Jesus Christ...its not christian. Its just another self help club. Certainly there is a pastoral responsibility in church leadership, but we all have roles to play in that.

A good leader is defined by his followers. We must be willng to follow direction. We must know the goal of the direction. We must know how to get going toward the dirtection.

Bible based churches. Jesus Christ churches. Commited christians.

To me, you can have all the friendly ushers and nice programs and beautiful buildings and concerts and plays and all the bells and whistles but if Christ is missing....if real teaching isn't going on....if discipleship doesn't happen....the church isn't church.



Liveloved -> RE: Team of Rivals - Another name for the church? (5/4/2008 9:30:57 PM)

SonInMe1,

I'm not wanting to misunderstand you but unclear as to your response. The OP was regarding Lincoln's ability to see the good in others and bring out that good for the good of all. And I see that as being what the body of Christ is to be about as well. However, I have not seen that lived out within the church body.

What I have seen lived out, over and over again, are egos in great need. Lincoln, obviously, was humble enough to not see others as threats or competitors but to see them as gifted men who could work together to bring about wonderful outcomes.

That is what Christ wants to do in us and then in His church. If Christ is the head (which He is but I've yet to see this as a reality in the church), then I can see the good in others. Their good is no longer a threat to me. I love them instead of envying or hating them and do all to bring them to the place of using their gifts for God's glory.

Anyway, if you can help me understand what you are saying, I'd appreciate it. [:)]LL



SonInMe1 -> RE: Team of Rivals - Another name for the church? (5/5/2008 1:43:41 AM)

The thread seemed to me to be about church direction...where and how is the church directed.

Sorry if I misunderstood.



Liveloved -> RE: Team of Rivals - Another name for the church? (5/5/2008 4:19:37 PM)

quote:

The thread seemed to me to be about church direction...where and how is the church directed.

Sorry if I misunderstood.


Thanks, SIM1! I thought we were on diverging paths---



HisCovenant -> RE: Team of Rivals - Another name for the church? (5/5/2008 4:39:03 PM)

I know what you mean, LL, although I have never read that book.

I used to go to a church where "doing church" was thought of as a zero sum game. If the leadership (read: pastor[>:] ) had a vision and calling, anoyone called to a different task wasn't following the "spirit." If anymember needed financial support, it was squelched as taking money "away" from what God has called the church to do. It was totally forgotten that God gave each a gift, that the main job of the church is to equip the members, and God would supply the needs for His callings and tasks.

I've also seen situations where one christian has been called to speak in a group and the others to remain silent. Those who remained silent at the Holy Spirit's urging assumed that all were to remain quiet. I've seen the same thing with a group called to give a gentle message and then God calling one or two out of the group to give a harsher (but still a true and loving) message to someone. Both sides assume the other is wrong because of their task and gift.

I've also seen gross statements that are simply untrue, such as "if you aren't out making new converts, then you probably aren't saved." Well, thank God that some are gifted in evangelism, but many of us work behind the scenes so other gifts can get out there and witness, preach, teach, administer mercy (or whatever) to the lost. Some of us don't always see first hand the impact that our calling makes.



Liveloved -> RE: Team of Rivals - Another name for the church? (5/5/2008 11:46:21 PM)

Great thoughts, HisCovenant.

I've always wondered what it would be like to be in a church where I Cor 12 isn't just a chapter in a book but TRUTH, where we really honor each member as valued and gifted and placed in the body JUST as God has placed them, to be used for His purposes.

It is a work of the Spirit. And knowledge has spiritual man so puffed up that there is not room for the Spirit to work---let alone lead. Lincoln was humble enough to lead in this way---much like Jesus. Yes, humility is what is needed.



HisCovenant -> RE: Team of Rivals - Another name for the church? (5/6/2008 12:04:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved
And knowledge has spiritual man so puffed up that there is not room for the Spirit to work---let alone lead. Lincoln was humble enough to lead in this way---much like Jesus. Yes, humility is what is needed.

I agree about the humility and have seen some puffed up by knowlegde. Knowledge can make you so arrogant and prideful that you can't see how ignorant you are. That certainly is a sin.

However, I think a larger problem is a lack of Spirit led knowledge- not the kind that puffs up, but the kind that makes us humble: giving understanding of the Holy Spirit & how He moves in our lives, transforms us into the image of Christ, and brings us closer in relationship to God. The Holy Spirit wrote a book to reveal how God, the Son, and Himself work together and how they expect us to function in relationship with them. My experience mostly has been with Christians so busy wanting to put their own feelings into what the Bible says that the message gets distorted into a lie. And leadership discipling Christians into a culture of gossip about God instead of being fed pure meat or milk (which ever the believer was ready to take.) Most of what I have seen has been leadership who wasn't mature enough to lead and to understand that knowledge doesn't have to cause problems, but can mature believers when they really know their God.



Liveloved -> RE: Team of Rivals - Another name for the church? (5/6/2008 3:52:17 PM)

quote:

a lack of Spirit led knowledge


Yes, this was the point exactly. I don't think many in the church really believe that the Spirit can teach and lead us. They think we need a degree or to know Hebrew and Greek. And not that those things can't be helpful. They can be. I occasionally use others resources as well. But much of our 'training' has been patterned after the world's way of gaining knowledge through the intellect. Spiritual man learns through the Spirit and there really is no comparison.

And what the Spirit leads in is humility and a deeper knowledge of Jesus. And the beautiful thing is that I find this reality in ALL kinds of people---they are truly a work of His, born of the Spirit and taught by Him. You can connect in a profoundly intimate way because the connection is through Jesus.

When it is His workmanship, the human thoughts about what you are supposed to look like or do or be have to go. The cookie cutter Christian doesn't fit His unique patterns at all. That is why we need spiritual eyes and spiritual hearts and spiritual minds. I believe Lincoln possessed this. And he was able to do incredible things because of it.

I must read on.[:)]



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