RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/11/2008 7:15:38 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 637
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ORIGINAL: mcp
Correct, but your intelligence, among other things including efforts, can affect both your grades and your wages
That's exactly what I am saying, except that I don't see how intelligence and effort correlate.
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because earning can go beyond mere effort.
Explain this, please.
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It really isn't important whether or not you understand the meaning of the word earn; just limits how you can determine the educational problems could be solved imho.
Again, I don't see your point. Could you explain, please?
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I never equated grades with only good behavior or diligence.
How the heck else can one earn a grade?
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The point of a grade is to give society anothr currency to establish higher learning abilities and potential
Grades are for social evaluation? Well, that is true in a few isolated instances. But doesn't the chief purpose of grades reside in one's academic charter as a measurement of one's scholastic acumen?
I believe it is.
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So I dont disagree that grades can be used for measuring, but that doesn't preclude the EARNing concept.
You haven't yet demonstrated why not.
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Oh, I get it. And grades are not real/useful things that can be earned?
Grades are not a commodity. And if grades can be earned, then there is no point to education.
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You are confusing earning something and being able to turn it around to cash.
Okay, forget cash. Think "commodity." No one wants to earn something that has no reciprocal value of some kind. Why work to get something that has no value?
Therefore, if I want to earn a grade, then what I really want is something that I can exchange the grade for. If I am strictly concerned with what good grades can be exchanged for, e.g. adulation, bragging rights, lower car insurance rates, sholarship grants, etc., then I am no longer concerned with learning, but rather with earning.
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I am concerned you don't get how you are confusing the elements within an analogy.
Well, don't lose sleep over it.
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Competition- Grades are dictated based on baselining on peoples' knowledge potential.
Therefore, the people on the highest end win, and the rest lose? Remember, within competetion there are always winners, but mostly losers.
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measuring and earning are not mutually exclusive definitions.
They should be when it comes to grades.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/11/2008 7:25:32 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 637
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ORIGINAL: davemiller7
How about teachers and school administrators who believe in teaching the three R's
They currently do.
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history the way it happened (not twisted versions)
I agree that this has never been done. It would be refreshing, especially when it comes to American history.
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and good morals. They should not be advocating drug and sex experimentation.
Most schools already have "zero tolerance" drug policies, and promote sexual abstinence. You can't get much better than that, can you?
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Does that satisfy your question or are you going to nit-pick that the way you do to everyone else?
Would you rather I just nod and smile? If we all did that, this would be one dead forum.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/11/2008 9:44:26 PM
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mcp
Posts: 109
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
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ORIGINAL: mcp
Correct, but your intelligence, among other things including efforts, can affect both your grades and your wages
That's exactly what I am saying, except that I don't see how intelligence and effort correlate.
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because earning can go beyond mere effort.
Explain this, please.
You have insisted that EARNing only reflects the efforts side of one's worklife. I merely disagree.
The right kind of intelligence can reduce the efforts to receive a particular grade in school as well as a wage at work. So, both intelligence and efforts combined lend to some grade, wage, etc. If you apply both intel and effort, you may increase productivity or learning and either increase in rank/class or get higher grades/wages.
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I never equated grades with only good behavior or diligence.
How the heck else can one earn a grade?
You brought it up. Key word is "only" above. natural intellegence can earn a higher grade just like a natural salesman can earn a higher commission.
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The point of a grade is to give society anothr currency to establish higher learning abilities and potential
Grades are for social evaluation? Well, that is true in a few isolated instances. But doesn't the chief purpose of grades reside in one's academic charter as a measurement of one's scholastic acumen?
It is truely for social evaluation (you may be thinking about social promotion; I am using differently here). Grades reflect learning, and what you learned is what is expected for your social group. Again if you made a 100 on a first grade spelling test, but you are in high school, the grade has no value; it still measured that you learned the material, but you learned it a decade back. In the early days of America, learning was important firstly for Bible reading..it was also important at some point to learn enough to survive in the society/culture (buy, sale, communicate, know laws, etc). Higher learning and the associated grades are not just to fight back alzheimers or for making an individual feel good; it is to compete for upper level jobs and coexist with other educated citizens.
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So I dont disagree that grades can be used for measuring, but that doesn't preclude the EARNing concept.
You haven't yet demonstrated why not.
I most certainly have and continue to below. not mutually exclusive concepts.
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Oh, I get it. And grades are not real/useful things that can be earned?
Grades are not a commodity. And if grades can be earned, then there is no point to education. Education can serve many goals; a grade is a fair goal for education. I am not postulating that people be given grades that are not reflective of abilities or efforts which proved learning level. Education is not for merely earning learned facts any more than having a job is for earning experience (knowledge of your trade); but that indeed is a key point of education.
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Okay, forget cash. Think "commodity." No one wants to earn something that has no reciprocal value of some kind. Why work to get something that has no value?
Therefore, if I want to earn a grade, then what I really want is something that I can exchange the grade for. If I am strictly concerned with what good grades can be exchanged for, e.g. adulation, bragging rights, lower car insurance rates, sholarship grants, etc., then I am no longer concerned with learning, but rather with earning.
Again you state two concepts that are not mutually exclusive. When the teacher measures your learning and skills and gives you an 'A', then you have received/obtained a grade; and since EARN can mean receive/obtain, then you earned it. One benefit to getting the grade; you know how you compare to what is expected for your age/class group. And a side benefit is that the grade can be buying power for scholarships. The definition of earning is not restricted to work and obtaining currency for buying concrete objects.
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Competition- Grades are dictated based on baselining on peoples' knowledge potential.
Therefore, the people on the highest end win, and the rest lose? Remember, within competetion there are always winners, but mostly losers.
Key word in my last point was BASELINING which I explained by suggesting that learning is based on expectations for humans in different classes; again, successful learning for a 12th grader is not the same as learning for a 4th grader. Therefore, the SAT test is a means by which you are measured for what you learned or have in natural abilities compared with the 1200's of the nation in your group. That's why they focus on percentiles with peers in SATs, because what is learned and the associated grade all through your schooling is baselined.
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measuring and earning are not mutually exclusive definitions.
They should be when it comes to grades.
"Grades measure your level of learning, not earning. This is so simple, folks-"
My point was your original statement- which I added here again- is not correct. No one said that grades measure earning; they have said that grades are earned; and I additionally accept that grades are a measuring tool for learning as well. these concepts are not mutually exclusive. Again grades are earned by effort, experience, and natural talents; the cumulative of which is an earned grade. Grades may not be earned fairly in your opinion, but they are earned nonetheless.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/12/2008 9:26:10 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 637
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
You have insisted that EARNing only reflects the efforts side of one's worklife.
Actually, I am holding to TomTurn's delineation: earn = rewarded effort. He was very clear about this.
And I am not sure that I disagree as far the definition of earning goes. If someone is rewarded sans effort, then they haven't earned it.
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The right kind of intelligence can reduce the efforts to receive a particular grade in school as well as a wage at work.
Exactly, but now they are being rewarded for their innate talent (accute intelligence) instead of for their effort. This only demonstrates further that grades are not earned.
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So, both intelligence and efforts combined lend to some grade, wage, etc.
When it comes to school, intelligence + effort tends to be reflected in good grades. The grades are not rewards, but rather they reflect the educational profile of the student: the student learned, and applied what they learned.
Isn't this what students are there for? Why should we consider grades as rewards for the student doing what was required of them?
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If you apply both intel and effort, you may increase productivity or learning and either increase in rank/class or get higher grades/wages.
I have worked jobs where greater effort and productivity on my part (or anyone else's) equaled no greater a paycheck, whereas in school I had gotten very good grades in subjects that required little effort on my part. But my good grades did nothing for me outside of school. These two experiences in life taught me that the whole theory of the work ethic is a load of fertilizer.
I have found that neither talent nor effort earned me anything in life.
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natural intellegence can earn a higher grade just like a natural salesman can earn a higher commission.
Both are talents. Talent oftentimes gets rewarded, but talent itself cannot be earned because it is innate, or God-given, if you will. If the talent to acquire rewards is not itself earned, then neither are the rewards.
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Grades reflect learning
. . . not earning.
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Higher learning and the associated grades are not just to fight back alzheimers or for making an individual feel good; it is to compete for upper level jobs and coexist with other educated citizens.
Your argument loses on two counts:
1. You gave the example of a 100 on a 1st grade exam: that grade loses its value with time. Grades always lose their value once you graduate.
2. Positions in jobs are gotten by personal credentials, not grades. They want to see your degree, your honors, your letters of recommendation, your references.
Experience also goes a long way; but being "connected" is the very best tool of all. We tend to use the terms "connections," or "networking." It's that old adage, "It's not what you know, but who you know," or what I call white affirmative action.
But, of all these criteria, the ones given the least consideration are the grades you got as a student.
Some reward.
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Education can serve many goals; a grade is a fair goal for education.
And once you achieve the "goal," you're done. Now what?
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I am not postulating that people be given grades that are not reflective of abilities or efforts which proved learning level.
But if it's about learning, then earning cannot be a consideration. Either you earn-- in which case only the degree of effort matters-- or else you learn-- in which case it doesn't matter how much effort you put into it as long as you meet the requirements.
Learning is about the ends; earning is about the means. See?
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Education is not for merely earning learned facts
You don't "earn learning"; that's an oxymoron. You either learn, or you don't-- period.
I mean, if you want to loosen the definition of earn to mean anything acquired by any means at all, then I "earn" oxygen every time that I inhale, or "earn" sleep when I lie down at night. A definition this broad voids the word of any useful application.
Earning implies effort, diligence, and character, otherwise it isn't earning. Likewise, learning implies receptiveness, attention, and innate intelligence, otherwise it isn't learning.
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When the teacher measures your learning and skills and gives you an 'A', then you have received/obtained a grade; and since EARN can mean receive/obtain, then you earned it.
This goes back to what I just said about over-broadening the parameters of what earn means.
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One benefit to getting the grade; you know how you compare to what is expected for your age/class group.
Is this a commodity? What can I exchange this comparison for?
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And a side benefit is that the grade can be buying power for scholarships.
And if this is my only concern, then why not cheat to get good grades? After all, it's about the goal, not the education.
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The definition of earning is not restricted to work and obtaining currency for buying concrete objects.
Earning, in the context of reward, demands a commodity of some kind. Even a stupid trophy is more of a reward than a grade.
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Key word in my last point was BASELINING which I explained by suggesting that learning is based on expectations for humans in different classes;
No, your point was about competition: you can't keep moving the goal posts at will.
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No one said that grades measure earning; they have said that grades are earned; and I additionally accept that grades are a measuring tool for learning as well. these concepts are not mutually exclusive.
They have to be, otherwise what is the difference.
Maybe that's what I should have you answer here, in your own words:
What is the difference between earning and learning?
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Again grades are earned by effort
What effort?
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experience
If you already have the experience, what the heck are you taking the course for?
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and natural talents
Which precludes effort. How can you not see this?
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Grades may not be earned fairly in your opinion, but they are earned nonetheless.
In order for grades to be earned fairly, we would have to discount intelligence and talent; we would also have to make the grades actually worth something.
Doesn't sound like education anymore, does it?
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/12/2008 10:05:11 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 381
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From: NC via NY
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I don't think I'm even going to bother to respond to you anymore. It seems like your whole reason for participating in these forums is to cause dissension. I won't continue to confuse you with the facts since your mind is made up. I have better things to do with my time. Have a great life.
-Dave
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ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
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ORIGINAL: davemiller7
How about teachers and school administrators who believe in teaching the three R's
They currently do.
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history the way it happened (not twisted versions)
I agree that this has never been done. It would be refreshing, especially when it comes to American history.
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and good morals. They should not be advocating drug and sex experimentation.
Most schools already have "zero tolerance" drug policies, and promote sexual abstinence. You can't get much better than that, can you?
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Does that satisfy your question or are you going to nit-pick that the way you do to everyone else?
Would you rather I just nod and smile? If we all did that, this would be one dead forum.
_____________________________
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/12/2008 10:19:20 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 637
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
I don't think I'm even going to bother to respond to you anymore. It seems like your whole reason for participating in these forums is to cause dissension.
I don't need to cause it; it exists already. Apparently you are upset with me just because I disagree with you and others on this forum. I did not see anything in the TOS that required me to agree with everyone.
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I won't continue to confuse you with the facts since your mind is made up.
You presented no facts.
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I have better things to do with my time. Have a great life.
Then, by all means, get on with it. And you have a great life, too.
Word to the wise: stop taking things so seriously and personally. You'll probably live longer and healthier if you do.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/12/2008 11:09:29 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 737
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From: Augusta, GA
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I'll qualify my stance, for its part, with this: I don't believe one man is better than another. I love all equally, whether they are well off or poor, whether they have been gifted with wealth or they worked their way through college and started a business from scratch with years of sweat. I don't place some incredible pedestal under the word "earn". It's good, obviously, to earn what you get. However, if someone needs help with school or life in general, it's not because they don't want to earn what they get. Oftentimes it's because they are unable without that help. At some point in our lives, we have all received help, whether it was from our parents, our teachers, or whomever. The help someone received earlier in life, someone who appears to have earned everything on his own, is no more righteous than the help someone receives openly and immediately.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/12/2008 11:29:49 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 637
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
At some point in our lives, we have all received help, whether it was from our parents, our teachers, or whomever. The help someone received earlier in life, someone who appears to have earned everything on his own, is no more righteous than the help someone receives openly and immediately.
You are correct. The difference is that there is benevolence in charity, but not in a systematic compulsory. Socialism is not charitable.
Of course, the real issue here is what part socialism should play in school. The OP suggests that applying socialism via a grade redistribution system would illustrate to students the evils of socialism.
I would be interested in seeing this put to the test.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/12/2008 11:40:28 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 737
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
At some point in our lives, we have all received help, whether it was from our parents, our teachers, or whomever. The help someone received earlier in life, someone who appears to have earned everything on his own, is no more righteous than the help someone receives openly and immediately.
You are correct. The difference is that there is benevolence in charity, but not in a systematic compulsory. Socialism is not charitable.
Of course, the real issue here is what part socialism should play in school. The OP suggests that applying socialism via a grade redistribution system would illustrate to students the evils of socialism.
I would be interested in seeing this put to the test.
I understand what the original post says, but agreeing or disagreeing with the original post is contingent on an agreement of exactly how evil socialism really is. I see it as a flawed economic system, just like capitalism. It has its good and bads, but people refuse to talk about its goods for some reason.
The problem with charity is that it is limited and dependent on people's generosity. When that generosity is lacking, which it does, people are made to suffer. I believe it is more evil to make poor people suffer than to solicit funds from the rich. Obviously many people think otherwise when given only those two choices.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/12/2008 11:50:49 AM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I understand what the original post says, but agreeing or disagreeing with the original post is contingent on an agreement of exactly how evil socialism really is.
Good point. The OP seems to suggest that a socialized grade redistribution system would allow socialism to be just as bad as he believes it to be.
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It has its good and bads, but people refuse to talk about its goods for some reason.
They also refuse to acknowledge that virtually every westernized nation adopts socialized programs to one degree or another.
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I believe it is more evil to make poor people suffer than to solicit funds from the rich. Obviously many people think otherwise when given only those two choices.
Oftentimes the poor suffer from oppression more than a lack of money. Poverty entails many aspects besides finances. I have seen economically comfortable people suffer from poverty in other areas of their life: family dysfunction, disjointed communities, lack of spiritual foundation, etc.
I'm not sure that wealth distribution solves poverty, but on the other hand neither does charity, as you pointed out.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/12/2008 6:04:25 PM
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mcp
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Actually, I am holding to TomTurn's delineation: earn = rewarded effort. He was very clear about this.
And I am not sure that I disagree as far the definition of earning goes. If someone is rewarded sans effort, then they haven't earned it.
If that was his only definition for the word EARN, then I disagree with both of you on some level. We just disagree on how the term earn should be used with respect to grades. I'll just take my dictionary definition of EARN and long-standing English idioms (on how one obtains a grade) with me.
I see by your responses below, that you fail to understand my arguments in context as they were to be used and even cut phrases or words out of context that doesn't give the whole meaning so you can refute by your own disjointed arguments/questions.
So I too bow out of a never-ending argument on terms to use in education.
One correction on my part.....
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Education is not for merely earning learned facts
You don't "earn learning"; that's an oxymoron.
... this was a typo and you are correct in correcting me  .
One thing I will say though based on one of your comments...
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I have worked jobs where greater effort and productivity on my part (or anyone else's) equaled no greater a paycheck, whereas in school I had gotten very good grades in subjects that required little effort on my part. But my good grades did nothing for me outside of school. These two experiences in life taught me that the whole theory of the work ethic is a load of fertilizer.
I have found that neither talent nor effort earned me anything in life.
... this is a pretty shallow view of experience and your conclusions are odd. If you can't succeed with talent nor effort, then you better win the lotto. And if work ethic means nothing, then by all means cheat/steal/etc , cause sounds like all that's important is a further breakdown in society and your bottom line.
< Message edited by mcp -- 5/12/2008 6:18:34 PM >
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/12/2008 9:19:04 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 637
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
I see by your responses below, that you fail to understand my arguments in context as they were to be used and even cut phrases or words out of context that doesn't give the whole meaning so you can refute by your own disjointed arguments/questions.
No, I understand what you are thinking, but I also believe that you are sadly mistaken if you view grades as commodities.
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So I too bow out of a never-ending argument on terms to use in education.
Too bad. I think that you gave in too easy, but we all have our time limits I guess . . .
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... this is a pretty shallow view of experience and your conclusions are odd.
A "shallow view?" It is my experience. I fully experienced that neither talent nor effort earned me anything. What should I do-- lie about that fact?
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If you can't succeed with talent nor effort, then you better win the lotto.
Or just get by the best that you can, which is what I do.
Besides, I have the worst luck of anyone I have ever met when it comes to gambling; that's why I don't do it anymore.
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And if work ethic means nothing, then by all means cheat/steal/etc , cause sounds like all that's important is a further breakdown in society and your bottom line.
Well, I am rather shocked at your shallow view. Isn't this what separates honest people from criminals-- the unwillingness to cheat or steal just because I think that I am entitled to something?
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/13/2008 12:37:22 AM
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mcp
Posts: 109
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No, I understand what you are thinking, but I also believe that you are sadly mistaken if you view grades as commodities.
So I pull your and my comments from earlier....
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Grades are not a commodity. And if grades can be earned, then there is no point to education.
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mcp:
You are confusing earning something and being able to turn it around to cash.
Okay, forget cash. Think "commodity." No one wants to earn something that has no reciprocal value of some kind. Why work to get something that has no value?
Your comments that my views on what a grade represents, which I repeatedly defined as more expansive than your narrow definitions, are disjointed. You brought up the word commodity. You accuse my view on how a grade is obtained and can be used as asserting your term of the week. Do I believe a grade can be like a commodity? yes; but only in a analogous sense (though some senses of the word could be directly appropriate). And grades can represent other words as well; you brought up measuring device; I agree. But I don't charge you with suggesting a grade has to be able to weigh fish to be a measuring tool. That is why I charged you with confusing earning a grade with its requirement to have value at the merchantile exchange. Again, we disagree on how and when you can use the word we argued for several days on. Your confusion is why you falsely accuse me of not knowing what a grade is or how it is used.\\\
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Too bad. I think that you gave in too easy, but we all have our time limits I guess . . .
I haven't necessarily quit this thread, I have just decided to back off the time spent arguing the definition of EARN and similar definitional arguements. Course I appreciate your back-handed approach to start a new argument on the term COMMODITY above  .
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A "shallow view?" It is my experience. I fully experienced that neither talent nor effort earned me anything. What should I do-- lie about that fact?
No. I don't want lies, I believe you had these events happen or you have several anecdotes of other's stories. However, if I judged all moms or the concept of the family unit because I only knew my bad (hypothetical) experience in a dysfunctional family, then I would have a 'shallow' experience and potentially conclusions on a very important societal unit. All systems can be abused; and the work environment and the schoolhouse are no exceptions. If your knowledge of these systems are only shaped by your example, then I am claiming that your experience is not broad enough to weigh objectively on these systems [hence, 'shallow view'].
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Well, I am rather shocked at your shallow view. Isn't this what separates honest people from criminals-- the unwillingness to cheat or steal just because I think that I am entitled to something? Yes, I'm sure you are- it was my facetious conclusion to your assertion that you experienced neither that talent or effort contributed to these benchmarks used to measure us in school or work. And as you stated-quote:
work ethic is a load of fertilizer. It was a means of calling your bluff that grades and resume's mean nothing in our society; or that having ethics has any intrinsic value. This after you claiming that one could use grades to determine that you learned something (or may I add, already knew it).
OK one last explanation to one of your questions on that dreaded term, earn:
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What is the difference between earning and learning?
Best I can tell, an 'L'.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/13/2008 10:03:40 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 637
Joined: 3/24/2008
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ORIGINAL: mcp
Do I believe a grade can be like a commodity? yes; but only in a analogous sense
In any sense that you think of grades as commodities, then I disagree.
I am allowed to disagree with you, aren't I?
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you brought up measuring device; I agree.
And what do grades measure?
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That is why I charged you with confusing earning a grade with its requirement to have value at the merchantile exchange.
. . . Any exchangeable value at all, of any kind. A grade must be exchangeable in order for it to be a commodity. What specifically are grades' exchangeability?
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Your confusion is why you falsely accuse me of not knowing what a grade is or how it is used.
I think you are the one who is confused. I never said that you don't know, rather I am challenging the veracity of what you know.
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Course I appreciate your back-handed approach to start a new argument on the term COMMODITY above.
. . . What was so "backhanded" about inserting the word commodity instead of cash? I wasn't tryng to be cagey.
Comparing grades to commodities is a far better analogy than comparing them to cash-- which TomTurn did, btw.
I don't think that grades compare to cash or commodities.
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If your knowledge of these systems are only shaped by your example, then I am claiming that your experience is not broad enough to weigh objectively on these systems [hence, 'shallow view'].
It's quite simple. The work ethic tells me that my diligence and hard effort will result in a reciprocal reward, and a bolstering of my character. Experience has shown me that diligence and hard effort are not valued by employers; and that, if anything, my character has suffered for it.
Now, where am I missing the boat?
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Yes, I'm sure you are- it was my facetious conclusion to your assertion that you experienced neither that talent or effort contributed to these benchmarks used to measure us in school or work.
No, you misunderstood. My talents, my intelligence, and my effort did help me get good grades. But grades are grades. They do not help in the "real" world.
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And as you stated, "work ethic is a load of fertilizer." It was a means of calling your bluff that grades and resume's mean nothing in our society
Again, you misunderstood. Grades mean nothing outside of school, but resumes are everything.
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This after you claiming that one could use grades to determine that you learned something
What's wrong with this? What else are grades for?
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OK one last explanation to one of your questions on that dreaded term, earn:
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What is the difference between earning and learning?
Best I can tell, an 'L'.
Okay, let's put this to the test:
Going on what you just said, a less-smart student should get the same A on their test that the smart kid got if the less-smart student can prove that he/she studied harder, longer, and took more time on their test than the smart kid.
Correct?-- remember, we are talking the work ethic here . . .
< Message edited by 1dblthnk02 -- 5/13/2008 10:10:18 AM >
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/13/2008 11:01:20 AM
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mcp
Posts: 109
Joined: 4/23/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
In any sense that you think of grades as commodities, then I disagree.
I am allowed to disagree with you, aren't I? yup, if you must
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And what do grades measure?
The octane rating determined to retard the burn rate of unleaded fuels. Cetanes for fuel oils 
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What specifically are grades' exchangeability?
Well since I am not cynical about every aspect of how schools should work: some people get educational scholarships or get placements in better school venues; if the prep was right, certain higher-educational programs are opened to students coming out of secondary school. Not all get this favor; grades play a role in this. And playing a role, grades are translated into higher education and clout. You are right in saying that grades have little sellability outside of the school system, but if you were top of your class at harvard; your grades may give you an edge at your next job as the employer sifts through ivy league grads.
quote:
. . . What was so "backhanded" about inserting the word commodity instead of cash? I wasn't tryng to be cagey.
Comparing grades to commodities is a far better analogy than comparing them to cash-- which TomTurn did, btw.
I don't think that grades compare to cash or commodities.
Accepting a little bad humor every now and then wouldn't hurt you would it?
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It's quite simple. The work ethic tells me that my diligence and hard effort will result in a reciprocal reward, and a bolstering of my character. Experience has shown me that diligence and hard effort are not valued by employers; and that, if anything, my character has suffered for it.
Now, where am I missing the boat?
The vector you have taken off in a direction different from where the boat is anchored. BTW, it could be argued that a work ethic transcends the reciprocal benefits you expect. Again your experience does not reflect a deeper pool of evidence or my observations where work ethics (and efforts coupled with abilities/experience) are honored; and when they are not honored, the system soon thereafter suffers [they lose their good people or productivity to the competition or the 'bad managers' themselves are let go.]
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Again, you misunderstood. Grades mean nothing outside of school, but resumes are everything. OK, you are fine with resumes. Of course, grades mean more in the school system. School is where you build your educational clout in order to have something on your first resumes. Otherwise, you would try to get a new job at the law firm with just a resume full of summer jobs mowing grass or flipping burgers.
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Okay, let's put this to the test:
Going on what you just said, a less-smart student should get the same A on their test that the smart kid got if the less-smart student can prove that he/she studied harder, longer, and took more time on their test than the smart kid.
Correct?-- remember, we are talking the work ethic here . . .
i have no idea what this is in response to. Are you always on? sense of humor, anyone?
And it doesn't reflect what I just said; again, my view of what grades can represent is more broad than you have let on to; but abuses of the grade in any direction is more about principles than it is about the theory and definitions of grades.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/13/2008 8:13:33 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 381
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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Excellent post, mcp!
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
quote:
In any sense that you think of grades as commodities, then I disagree.
I am allowed to disagree with you, aren't I? yup, if you must
quote:
And what do grades measure?
The octane rating determined to retard the burn rate of unleaded fuels. Cetanes for fuel oils
quote:
What specifically are grades' exchangeability?
Well since I am not cynical about every aspect of how schools should work: some people get educational scholarships or get placements in better school venues; if the prep was right, certain higher-educational programs are opened to students coming out of secondary school. Not all get this favor; grades play a role in this. And playing a role, grades are translated into higher education and clout. You are right in saying that grades have little sellability outside of the school system, but if you were top of your class at harvard; your grades may give you an edge at your next job as the employer sifts through ivy league grads.
quote:
. . . What was so "backhanded" about inserting the word commodity instead of cash? I wasn't tryng to be cagey.
Comparing grades to commodities is a far better analogy than comparing them to cash-- which TomTurn did, btw.
I don't think that grades compare to cash or commodities.
Accepting a little bad humor every now and then wouldn't hurt you would it?
quote:
It's quite simple. The work ethic tells me that my diligence and hard effort will result in a reciprocal reward, and a bolstering of my character. Experience has shown me that diligence and hard effort are not valued by employers; and that, if anything, my character has suffered for it.
Now, where am I missing the boat?
The vector you have taken off in a direction different from where the boat is anchored. BTW, it could be argued that a work ethic transcends the reciprocal benefits you expect. Again your experience does not reflect a deeper pool of evidence or my observations where work ethics (and efforts coupled with abilities/experience) are honored; and when they are not honored, the system soon thereafter suffers [they lose their good people or productivity to the competition or the 'bad managers' themselves are let go.]
quote:
Again, you misunderstood. Grades mean nothing outside of school, but resumes are everything. OK, you are fine with resumes. Of course, grades mean more in the school system. School is where you build your educational clout in order to have something on your first resumes. Otherwise, you would try to get a new job at the law firm with just a resume full of summer jobs mowing grass or flipping burgers.
quote:
Okay, let's put this to the test:
Going on what you just said, a less-smart student should get the same A on their test that the smart kid got if the less-smart student can prove that he/she studied harder, longer, and took more time on their test than the smart kid.
Correct?-- remember, we are talking the work ethic here . . .
i have no idea what this is in response to. Are you always on? sense of humor, anyone?
And it doesn't reflect what I just said; again, my view of what grades can represent is more broad than you have let on to; but abuses of the grade in any direction is more about principles than it is about the theory and definitions of grades.
_____________________________
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/13/2008 9:19:20 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 637
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
Well since I am not cynical about every aspect of how schools should work: some people get educational scholarships
True, this is an exchangable value (monetarily measured, btw). The value is only short-term, of course, but it is valid.
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or get placements in better school venues
Only if grades become a determining factor for entrance at the bottom end of the roster, so to speak. So, here is where competition becomes a factor.
So far so good. See?-- I told you not to give up too soon. You've almost got me squirming here . . .
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certain higher-educational programs are opened to students coming out of secondary school. Not all get this favor; grades play a role in this.
Another good example.
But-- since every one of your examples pertained to school itself and not the real world, do you see where sheer talent and God-given brains can give students an edge even over those who work very, very hard and are even model students in every other way? I am forced to ask if the advantages that you listed are actually earned at all, but rather bestowed upon those who have already been intrincally blessed from the onset.
Some would call such blessings "good fortune," but whether or not it is luck, we are not talking about people earning their brains, their talent, their good looks, good health, or any other factor that gives them the edge up toward success. Hence, the work ethic still comes up short as a determining factor.
But at the very least, you have isolated a few instances where grades can be a commodity within one's scholastic program. Good job.
You get a B+. Don't spend it all in one place, now . . .
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You are right in saying that grades have little sellability outside of the school system, but if you were top of your class at harvard; your grades may give you an edge at your next job as the employer sifts through ivy league grads.
Perhaps. I can't say that this never happens.
You're on a roll tonight!
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Accepting a little bad humor every now and then wouldn't hurt you would it?
I never laugh. Even smiling cracks my skin. But you can make sport if you want. Who am I to spoil everyone's day?
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The vector you have taken off in a direction different from where the boat is anchored.
I'll grant you that. I was just explaining why I don't buy into the Work Ethic.
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BTW, it could be argued that a work ethic transcends the reciprocal benefits you expect.
I guess, but then what value is a work ethic wherein I cannot predict the outcome for which to set a personal goal?
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Again your experience does not reflect a deeper pool of evidence or my observations where work ethics (and efforts coupled with abilities/experience) are honored
Guess I'm just lucky.
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and when they are not honored, the system soon thereafter suffers [they lose their good people or productivity to the competition or the 'bad managers' themselves are let go.]
Actually, I have seen this very thing. Very astute of you.
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i have no idea what this is in response to. Are you always on? sense of humor, anyone?
Like I said, I am pretty humorless. I was actually serious: should a C or B student who tries real hard earn by their effort the same grade as the smart A student ?
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again, my view of what grades can represent is more broad than you have let on to; but abuses of the grade in any direction is more about principles than it is about the theory and definitions of grades.
Actually, that is what I am saying. Equating grades with rewards is a matter of principle. Why does a student strive for a grade?
Maybe their initiative is coming from Dad & Mom (money, a car, etc.) for getting a 4.0.
Maybe their initiative is acceptance by the teacher.
Maybe their initiative has nothing whatsoever to do with getting an education, and this is what bothers me about equating grades with a reward to be earned. It is indeed a matter of principle.
And I agree with davemiller7, btw: excellent post on your part.
< Message edited by 1dblthnk02 -- 5/13/2008 9:27:10 PM >
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/14/2008 12:23:43 AM
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mcp
Posts: 109
Joined: 4/23/2005
Status: offline
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Thanks Davemiller and 1dblthnk02 for the vote of confidence....
1dblthnk02, we are just going to have to let sleeping dogs lie on the concept of earning grades.
I am not bent out of shape over the people 'who win life's lottery' as some presidential candidates like to put it. I don't have envy over those things (or at least try not to). I am the kind that says more power to 'em.
Granted when the kids of an inheritence show signs of being spoiled, I definitely have a complaint in mind. But I don't prefer anybody behaving badly, even if they are indigent. My view is that you take the good of the systems America has and improve the messed up part when feasible; but please don't foolheartily revamp the system or bring everybody down to the lowest common denominator in the name of fairness.
"Education is simply the soul of a society as it passes from one generation to another. ... What we need is to have a culture before we hand it down. In other words, it is a truth, however sad and strange, that we cannot give what we have not got, and cannot teach to other people what we do not know ourselves. " -GK Chesterton
or
"The purpose of Compulsory Education is to deprive the common people of their commonsense."- GK Chesterton
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/14/2008 10:01:41 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 637
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
Thanks Davemiller and 1dblthnk02 for the vote of confidence....
Credit where credit is due . . .
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1dblthnk02, we are just going to have to let sleeping dogs lie on the concept of earning grades.
That's alright. I think that we have both sounded-off pretty good about it already.
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but please don't foolheartily revamp the system or bring everybody down to the lowest common denominator in the name of fairness.
Fairness isn't always good. Fair and impartial does not and cannot recognize individual achievement, otherwise it would be discriminatory, not impartial. Discriminating individual academic achievement makes grades meaningful; fair and impartial grading systems do not.
Imo, rewarding effort and diligence with a good grade is too fair and impartial. It suggests that hard workers deserve the same grade as smarter, more gifted students, and this isn't right.
"The function of education, therefore, is to teach one to think intensively and to think critically."
Martin Luther King
< Message edited by 1dblthnk02 -- 5/14/2008 10:17:29 AM >
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