RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 2:54:56 AM
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McFatty
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Of course the situation you've given is a bad situation, Tom. That's obvious. Any extreme is bad. How about this moderate example?
A couple students in the class make 100s on their tests. Most pass with B's or C's, but there are a few students which just can't seem to get a grasp on the material. Some students mock them and blame them for not working hard enough at their studies. Some ignore them. The teacher asks a few of the brighter students to spend some time helping the ones having trouble learn the material.
Of course, we wouldn't want that, though. We can't have those well off being DIRECTLY ASKED to help those who are struggling, can we?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 9:23:20 AM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Of course, we wouldn't want that, though. We can't have those well off being DIRECTLY ASKED to help those who are struggling, can we?
Of course not, McFatty. Didn't you hear Tom? Grades are earned through hard work and effort, not through learning or intelligence.
If those lazy, stoned ne'r-do-wells aren't getting good grades, then why punish the good, hard-working students by making them do even more work by helping the slackers tow the line?
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 10:17:00 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 725
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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Wow...
Well, perhaps I'm the only one who believes people should help one another, and it isn't too much to ask. That's fine. To each their own, I suppose.
By the way, not everyone who struggles in school is lazy and stoned. The ones who work hard but can't seem to get it obviously aren't worth anyone's trouble, though...
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 10:30:15 AM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
By the way, not everyone who struggles in school is lazy and stoned. The ones who work hard but can't seem to get it obviously aren't worth anyone's trouble, though...
I was being facetious. I was mocking TomTurn's philosophy that education is like employment and grades are like money. Phooey.
In all seriousness, I agree with you. Students who help other students tend to reach the slower students better than the teachers can, and they tend to improve their own scholastic skills all the more.
Now, this doesn't work if we want to hold education up to Tom's capitalist parallel. Competition drives capitalism. Grades go to those who put out the most effort; therefore, every man for himself. You get ahead by not helping the little guy.
And, of course, actually learning becomes irrelevant because it's all about effort, not education.
< Message edited by 1dblthnk02 -- 5/9/2008 10:36:56 AM >
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 10:37:59 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 725
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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Wow.. our facetiousnesses have crossed paths and spun into another dimension!
I partly agree with you, but for the most part, I think my version of the analogy may work for economics also, if you think about it in terms of the writings of Nobel Prize winning economist John Nash.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 11:57:14 AM
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mcp
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Of course the situation you've given is a bad situation, Tom. That's obvious. Any extreme is bad. How about this moderate example?
A couple students in the class make 100s on their tests. Most pass with B's or C's, but there are a few students which just can't seem to get a grasp on the material. Some students mock them and blame them for not working hard enough at their studies. Some ignore them. The teacher asks a few of the brighter students to spend some time helping the ones having trouble learn the material.
Of course, we wouldn't want that, though. We can't have those well off being DIRECTLY ASKED to help those who are struggling, can we?
Sure, then the tutor kids can EARN a prorated part wages of the teachers who aren't able to pull their weight. Let these tutor-students get access to the teacher's unions as well.
how's that for fair?
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 12:02:55 PM
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mcp
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
By the way, not everyone who struggles in school is lazy and stoned. The ones who work hard but can't seem to get it obviously aren't worth anyone's trouble, though...
I was being facetious. I was mocking TomTurn's philosophy that education is like employment and grades are like money. Phooey.
In all seriousness, I agree with you. Students who help other students tend to reach the slower students better than the teachers can, and they tend to improve their own scholastic skills all the more.
Now, this doesn't work if we want to hold education up to Tom's capitalist parallel. Competition drives capitalism. Grades go to those who put out the most effort; therefore, every man for himself. You get ahead by not helping the little guy.
And, of course, actually learning becomes irrelevant because it's all about effort, not education.
you seem proud that you can discount the use of the term "earn". Earning has nothing to do with the concept of fair. So are you saying (going back to the work side of the example) that salemen on commision don't earn their wages? Do people who perform better (either through efforts, experience or natural abilities) not earn their additional pay when they get promoted? Your argument was flawed from the beginning imho. Tom is correct to say that grades are EARNed because you may be able to trade that grade for points toward better careers, education, etc.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 1:10:58 PM
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davemiller7
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I think the point here is that it's fine to help the failing students to learn the material. However, it's not right to give part of their 100 score to the failing students. That doesn't help them prepare for life in the "real world."
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Of course the situation you've given is a bad situation, Tom. That's obvious. Any extreme is bad. How about this moderate example?
A couple students in the class make 100s on their tests. Most pass with B's or C's, but there are a few students which just can't seem to get a grasp on the material. Some students mock them and blame them for not working hard enough at their studies. Some ignore them. The teacher asks a few of the brighter students to spend some time helping the ones having trouble learn the material.
Of course, we wouldn't want that, though. We can't have those well off being DIRECTLY ASKED to help those who are struggling, can we?
_____________________________
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 1:55:35 PM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
Sure, then the tutor kids can EARN a prorated part wages of the teachers who aren't able to pull their weight. Let these tutor-students get access to the teacher's unions as well.
how's that for fair?
I'm fine with that. Wages are wages, grades are grades, and never the twain shall meet.
quote:
So are you saying (going back to the work side of the example) that salemen on commision don't earn their wages? Do people who perform better (either through efforts, experience or natural abilities) not earn their additional pay when they get promoted? Your argument was flawed from the beginning imho.
Okay, let's turn it around and see how flawed I am. How about starting tomorrow, you start receiving grades instead of dollars on your paycheck? Wanna work a 40+ hour week for a B? Sound good to you?
It should-- it's all the same thing: reward for effort.
Like it?
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 2:52:07 PM
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mcp
Posts: 109
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
Sure, then the tutor kids can EARN a prorated part wages of the teachers who aren't able to pull their weight. Let these tutor-students get access to the teacher's unions as well.
how's that for fair?
I'm fine with that. Wages are wages, grades are grades, and never the twain shall meet.
quote:
So are you saying (going back to the work side of the example) that salemen on commision don't earn their wages? Do people who perform better (either through efforts, experience or natural abilities) not earn their additional pay when they get promoted? Your argument was flawed from the beginning imho.
Okay, let's turn it around and see how flawed I am. How about starting tomorrow, you start receiving grades instead of dollars on your paycheck? Wanna work a 40+ hour week for a B? Sound good to you?
It should-- it's all the same thing: reward for effort.
Like it?
Your argument as I understand it was that the word EARN could not be used for grades, because you should use it for working/money arrangements.
Your turning around it on me is not an arguement about the use of the word EARN anymore. If my employer were to say you can work here and we will pay you in Ford trucks, equivalent to dollar amount you are seeking. I would reject the deal, even though I have the chance to EARN trucks.
quote:
I know what "earn" means; again, you don't earn grades any more than you earn your body temperature, bloodpressure, or weight.
synonyms for EARN- obtain, procure, receive, make... several relevant to grades. Your analogy with grades and body temperature is the problem; it is a bad analogy; well, i guess you could argue that if you exercised or had the wherewithal to eat well, you earned a leaner physique. Grades are not necessarily inherited; they are more at EARNed in a competitive manner.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 3:00:25 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 725
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Of course the situation you've given is a bad situation, Tom. That's obvious. Any extreme is bad. How about this moderate example?
A couple students in the class make 100s on their tests. Most pass with B's or C's, but there are a few students which just can't seem to get a grasp on the material. Some students mock them and blame them for not working hard enough at their studies. Some ignore them. The teacher asks a few of the brighter students to spend some time helping the ones having trouble learn the material.
Of course, we wouldn't want that, though. We can't have those well off being DIRECTLY ASKED to help those who are struggling, can we?
Sure, then the tutor kids can EARN a prorated part wages of the teachers who aren't able to pull their weight. Let these tutor-students get access to the teacher's unions as well.
how's that for fair?
So when students are asked to help one another in class, the teacher isn't pulling their weight? I'm sure it has nothing to do with ridiculously large class sizes and longer-than-necessary hours for the teacher. When did the money come into play when we were only talking about students and their grades?
The bottom line is that some people simply need help sometimes. It doesn't mean they are lazy or slackers or any other bad words people love to call them. It means they need help. They're outcasts simply because of this fact, so help is hard to obtain. In my belief, we should not throw them to the gutter if nobody volunteers to help them. You seem to believe otherwise.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 3:56:38 PM
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mcp
Posts: 109
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quote:
The bottom line is that some people simply need help sometimes. It doesn't mean they are lazy or slackers or any other bad words people love to call them. It means they need help. They're outcasts simply because of this fact, so help is hard to obtain. In my belief, we should not throw them to the gutter if nobody volunteers to help them. You seem to believe otherwise.
I agree with this except for the last line. The issue has to do with people arguing for fairness and the means at which they dictate the school system should be run to acheive these goals. I agree it is a good trait to teach the successful to help the less successful. However, there are limits; for instance if a kid is incorrigible, discipline or another venue is better for all parties, including teachers. The problem with the schools in my opinion is that the wrong people have been in charge of the school systems for too long.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 4:04:43 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 132
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
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AMEN to that, my friend!
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
quote:
The bottom line is that some people simply need help sometimes. It doesn't mean they are lazy or slackers or any other bad words people love to call them. It means they need help. They're outcasts simply because of this fact, so help is hard to obtain. In my belief, we should not throw them to the gutter if nobody volunteers to help them. You seem to believe otherwise.
I agree with this except for the last line. The issue has to do with people arguing for fairness and the means at which they dictate the school system should be run to acheive these goals. I agree it is a good trait to teach the successful to help the less successful. However, there are limits; for instance if a kid is incorrigible, discipline or another venue is better for all parties, including teachers. The problem with the schools in my opinion is that the wrong people have been in charge of the school systems for too long.
_____________________________
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 6:53:32 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 394
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
Your argument as I understand it was that the word EARN could not be used for grades, because you should use it for working/money arrangements.
Or for anything that requires effort. We earn credibility, reputation, friends, and money. We don't earn our weight, height, age, or intelligence.
quote:
Your turning around it on me is not an arguement about the use of the word EARN anymore.
Sure it is. You should see how ludicrous and useless a grade is if it is nothing more than a reward you earn for good behavior and diligent work.
What is the real point of a grade?
quote:
If my employer were to say you can work here and we will pay you in Ford trucks, equivalent to dollar amount you are seeking. I would reject the deal, even though I have the chance to EARN trucks.
Exactly, but a truck is still a real and useful thing, even if you prefer the cash equivalent.
There is no cash equivalent of a grade.
Get it?
quote:
Grades are not necessarily inherited; they are more at EARNed in a competitive manner.
Competitive? Whom are you competing with? If you get a 4.0, do you "win?"
No.
Grades measure your level of learning, not earning. This is so simple, folks-- you are making it complicated.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 6:55:54 PM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
The problem with the schools in my opinion is that the wrong people have been in charge of the school systems for too long.
And pray tell, who are the right people?
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/9/2008 7:45:50 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 132
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
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Certainly not the politically correct socialists that run most school systems today!!!
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
The problem with the schools in my opinion is that the wrong people have been in charge of the school systems for too long.
And pray tell, who are the right people?
_____________________________
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/10/2008 4:31:42 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 725
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
quote:
The bottom line is that some people simply need help sometimes. It doesn't mean they are lazy or slackers or any other bad words people love to call them. It means they need help. They're outcasts simply because of this fact, so help is hard to obtain. In my belief, we should not throw them to the gutter if nobody volunteers to help them. You seem to believe otherwise.
I agree with this except for the last line. The issue has to do with people arguing for fairness and the means at which they dictate the school system should be run to acheive these goals. I agree it is a good trait to teach the successful to help the less successful. However, there are limits; for instance if a kid is incorrigible, discipline or another venue is better for all parties, including teachers. The problem with the schools in my opinion is that the wrong people have been in charge of the school systems for too long.
I agree with the last line completely. The only problem I think I have with your idea is that I don't know who gets to judge a kid as incorrigible.
I am not a socialist by any means, but I do believe that it's not wrong to ask the rich to help the poor, at least in some way.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/10/2008 9:58:38 AM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Certainly not the politically correct socialists that run most school systems today!!!
I asked who they are, not who they aren't.
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
The only problem I think I have with your idea is that I don't know who gets to judge a kid as incorrigible.
Yes, again-- who are these elite people worthy of replacing our current school adminstrators?
All we know about them so far is that they cannot be "politcally correct," i.e. they cannot show ethnic/cultural/racial respect and restraint.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/10/2008 11:00:24 AM
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mcp
Posts: 109
Joined: 4/23/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcp
Your argument as I understand it was that the word EARN could not be used for grades, because you should use it for working/money arrangements.
Or for anything that requires effort. We earn credibility, reputation, friends, and money. We don't earn our weight, height, age, or intelligence.
Correct, but your intelligence, among other things including efforts, can affect both your grades and your wages; because earning can go beyond mere effort.
It really isn't important whether or not you understand the meaning of the word earn; just limits how you can determine the educational problems could be solved imho.
quote:
quote:
Your turning around it on me is not an arguement about the use of the word EARN anymore.
Sure it is. You should see how ludicrous and useless a grade is if it is nothing more than a reward you earn for good behavior and diligent work.
What is the real point of a grade?
I never equated grades with only good behavior or diligence. The point of a grade is to give society anothr currency to establish higher learning abilities and potential (as well as a measurement for areas needing work in a student). But one's previous wages that are earned can be a measuring stick for employee promotion or hiring. So I dont disagree that grades can be used for measuring, but that doesn't preclude the EARNing concept.
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quote:
If my employer were to say you can work here and we will pay you in Ford trucks, equivalent to dollar amount you are seeking. I would reject the deal, even though I have the chance to EARN trucks.
Exactly, but a truck is still a real and useful thing, even if you prefer the cash equivalent.
There is no cash equivalent of a grade.
Get it?
Oh, I get it. And grades are not real/useful things that can be earned? You are confusing earning something and being able to turn it around to cash. I am concerned you don't get how you are confusing the elements within an analogy.
quote:
quote:
Grades are not necessarily inherited; they are more at EARNed in a competitive manner.
Competitive? Whom are you competing with? If you get a 4.0, do you "win?"
No.
Grades measure your level of learning, not earning. This is so simple, folks-- you are making it complicated.
Competition- Grades are dictated based on baselining on peoples' knowledge potential. If Einstein is high IQ, then someone with higher IQ is an anomaly. Tests are made to fit the curricula of students at an expected grade level. If you score high on a test, then theoretically you are on track at the high end of your class. If a kindergarden class was given a physics exam and everyone got a 0, then the grade has no meaning.
Grades as measure- So the measurement and earning value of the grade will be misplaced in the kinder' example. measuring and earning are not mutually exclusive definitions.
< Message edited by mcp -- 5/10/2008 11:07:50 AM >
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/10/2008 11:12:29 AM
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mcp
Posts: 109
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quote:
And pray tell, who are the right people?
quote:
Yes, again-- who are these elite people worthy of replacing our current school adminstrators?
All we know about them so far is that they cannot be "politcally correct," i.e. they cannot show ethnic/cultural/racial respect and restraint.
The same could be asked of anyone with a complaint about the current structure. Who are the elite that want to replace the current US administration or were our founding fathers elite, cause they wanted to replace the Brit rule in 1700s?
Elite shouldn't be confused with elitist either, just to nip that in the bud. I don't care if leaders are elite, behavior flaws may make them elitist though.
The problem with liberal movements that reflect how children are disciplined, taught, etc is that to correct original problems with gov't education is that they threw the baby out with the bath water by instituting replacements to old succssful institutions. To deal with overactive boys, they took the quick fix of vitamen-'R'. To deal with child abuse which has always been with us, they have destroyed traditional disciplinary hierarchies and structures, now the police are called because the teachers hands are tied and the administrators will not handle it or can't. I could go on and on with the experimentation in learning styles that have been pushed on our kids trying to deal with a lower social order we now have... but, alas, I don't have the time and you wouldn't accept my personal anecdotes anyway. My grandmother was a trained teacher, and I know she knows some of the problems with the system. More people like her should be in charge, imho.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/10/2008 11:21:43 AM
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mcp
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quote:
I am not a socialist by any means, but I do believe that it's not wrong to ask the rich to help the poor, at least in some way.
Sure, that concept (sharing, helping others, etc) has been taught by parents and schools alike since the beginning of education. Older kids used to help out with younger kids, etc. But the system implemented to make rich help the poor is where the problem can be exacerbated. I believe by your answer, we may be in agreement on this.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/10/2008 12:24:04 PM
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relady
Posts: 910
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From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
Do people who perform better (either through efforts, experience or natural abilities) not earn their additional pay when they get promoted? Ah, but there's the rub. In real life, it is often times the mediocre who don't rock the boat who get promotions. The very talented often are left at the bottom because the un-talented at the top don't want competition or anyone questioning their ideas. Oh, and the guys at the top (in my experience) are more than willing to take credit for the ideas of others. Yeah, capitalism is a great thing, ain't it?
quote:
Well, perhaps I'm the only one who believes people should help one another, and it isn't too much to ask. That's fine. To each their own, I suppose. Actually, if you're a Christian, it IS NOT ok. In fact the very cornerstone of Christianity is being OTHER-centered, not self-centered.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/10/2008 12:51:07 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 725
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From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
Well, perhaps I'm the only one who believes people should help one another, and it isn't too much to ask. That's fine. To each their own, I suppose. Actually, if you're a Christian, it IS NOT ok. In fact the very cornerstone of Christianity is being OTHER-centered, not self-centered.
Everyone is at a different point on their journey. I can't expect everyone to be at the same place I am, nor can I expect myself to be at the same place person x is. Some people are at a place where they think it's better to allow people to horde than to ask them to help, sometimes even citing the unworthiness of those in need. I disagree with those mindsets, but others don't. I cannot tell people what to believe, only hope that they come to a place where their compassion for those in need outweighs their contempt for those who "aren't deserving".
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/10/2008 3:34:29 PM
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mcp
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Ah, but there's the rub. In real life, it is often times the mediocre who don't rock the boat who get promotions. The very talented often are left at the bottom because the un-talented at the top don't want competition or anyone questioning their ideas. Oh, and the guys at the top (in my experience) are more than willing to take credit for the ideas of others. Yeah, capitalism is a great thing, ain't it?
If there is too much competition within a company, they will certainly lose there best assets to other business. I know what you are saying and it represents a poorly managed company (seen also in the fortune 500s, but usually more at a regional level). And in my experience, they lose their assets and realize too late that they are in trouble w/ the compitition. The upper management usually gets cleaned up or they change their plan. Also, not all 'talents' make for good leadership of a company. Having owned businesses and worked for 'the man', many people in the ranks have distorted opinions on who has talent and who is Michael Scott of 'The Office 'show.
Abuse of a system is always an issue with any system. I mentioned earlier that our justice system is one of the first and greatest to date; but it certainly could be modified as there are still many flaws. And taking credit for other's ideas is lying or cheating and is not the rules of capitalism but the abuse in any system. If that is happening to you, i suggest you nip it or leave. Talented people would document the abuses and present to someone over the head of the abuser.
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RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater l... - 5/10/2008 8:49:45 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 132
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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How about teachers and school administrators who believe in teaching the three R's, history the way it happened (not twisted versions), and good morals. They should not be advocating drug and sex experimentation. Does that satisfy your question or are you going to nit-pick that the way you do to everyone else?
-Dave
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ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
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ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Certainly not the politically correct socialists that run most school systems today!!!
I asked who they are, not who they aren't.
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ORIGINAL: McFatty
The only problem I think I have with your idea is that I don't know who gets to judge a kid as incorrigible.
Yes, again-- who are these elite people worthy of replacing our current school adminstrators?
All we know about them so far is that they cannot be "politcally correct," i.e. they cannot show ethnic/cultural/racial respect and restraint.
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