RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Standards? (RE: Miley Cyrus and Others)
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 8:43:59 PM
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sjd2008
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quote:
Really... So you let you children(if you have them) play with the pedophile down the street? Remember, don't judge...
I bet if we really got down to it we'd find they we make judgment all day long... Eternal ones?No... Temporal ones? All the time, if not we'd be in the Topless Bar getting drunk...
John-
Your tendency for hyperbole is rather boring. Especially when you are asked a direct question and you spend your time side stepping it. I'm still curious if you will define modesty? Please don't give me the side step. I'd really like to discuss this point without all the smoke screen. It is worth a definition and a discussion.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 8:47:24 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
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I've always seen the biblical definition of modesty as the word is used in context in the Bible. Look at 1 Timothy 2:9, where it's talking about not wearing "braided hairstyles and gold ornaments, or pearls, or expensive clothes". It's talking about not showing off one's wealth or stature.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 8:55:03 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
How does not judging turn into getting drunk?
We judge getting drunk to be wrong, right? Hence those who do get drunk are wrong... Can't escape that...
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I also never said anything about looking the other way.
Ok, so what are you saying? You are kinda being vauge...
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We don't need to get facetious here.
I hope that's not a judgment.... 
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Is there a difference between listening to apologies or someone's profession of faith and taking their word for it, and being an irresponsible parent? Sure there is, unless you seriously think that not disbelieving everything someone says just because they're famous and allowing your children to play with a registered sex offender is the same thing. I seem to think it's different.
You said we are not to judge... I showed you the folly of your statement... Yes there is a HUGE difference, yet your statement covers both...
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There's also a difference between talking to your brother or sister in Christ about a sin you believe they're struggling with and judging his or her character on a public forum.
If that's the case I suggest you ask the people in charge to close most of the threads... Especially given it's a presidential election cycle year and it's getting close to summer...
She's a public figure and makes her living selling her image(nothing wrong wth that...) yet she claims Christ(nothing wrong there either...) but with that comes a higher standard...
John
Yes I judge getting drunk to be wrong. No I do not judge drunks. You were talking about equating not judging with physically getting drunk. There's a big difference because one involves another's actions and the other one's own.
I don't see folly in my statement, so you haven't shown it to me. Please explain. I'm trying to discuss this and understand your view while sharing mine. Perhaps that's not your goal.
Why close the threads? I'm simply sharing my view that judgment should be left to God. I don't think public figures should be held to a higher standard. You do. To each his own.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 9:05:15 PM
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sjd2008
Posts: 152
Joined: 1/29/2008
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quote:
She's a public figure and makes her living selling her image(nothing wrong wth that...) yet she claims Christ(nothing wrong there either...) but with that comes a higher standard...
Please show in scripture where being a public figure forces her to a higher standard. I see lots in scripture about church leaders being judged by a higher standard, but not anyone else. I really don't see scriptural basis for your statement.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 9:06:45 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sjd2008
John-
Your tendency for hyperbole is rather boring.
It's the only thing that works around here... I have to combat people going on and on about chaos at photo shoots and the idea that the Cyrus family is new to fame and having their picture taken...
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Especially when you are asked a direct question and you spend your time side stepping it. I'm still curious if you will define modesty? Please don't give me the side step.
I gave you an answer... You said it cannot be defined, that everyone has their own view of it...
I told you I don't believe the pictures of her in the photo shoot were modest in nature... (And I said that before I saw the other pictures...) I am giving you an example of my idea of what isn't modesty in my view... What more do you want? A person you agreee with said it cannot be defined...
Btw... Attacking me doesn't help your cause...
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I'd really like to discuss this point without all the smoke screen. It is worth a definition and a discussion.
I am sure you want to discuss anything else other than pictures of Miley Cyrus... Any other direction is a good one...
Here... discuss this...
Further, you can't argue everyone can define modesty as they see fit and also demand a definition... Your argument is centered on everyone seeing what they see, so a definition of modesty is define by how we see it according to you. Which means if she posed topless and one didn’t feel that being topless is an issue and for some it’s not, she would still be acting in a modest fashion…
John
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 9:08:17 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I've always seen the biblical definition of modesty as the word is used in context in the Bible. Look at 1 Timothy 2:9, where it's talking about not wearing "braided hairstyles and gold ornaments, or pearls, or expensive clothes". It's talking about not showing off one's wealth or stature.
It's about attitude... The whole picture... Are you willing to say it's ok to show off cleavage?
John
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 9:09:30 PM
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sjd2008
Posts: 152
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I've always seen the biblical definition of modesty as the word is used in context in the Bible. Look at 1 Timothy 2:9, where it's talking about not wearing "braided hairstyles and gold ornaments, or pearls, or expensive clothes". It's talking about not showing off one's wealth or stature.
Agreed, but somewhere along the way modesty also had a sexual connotation. That to be modest indicated sexual purity. Does it? or have we just shifted the definition so that it got away from wealth and stature?
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 9:14:27 PM
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sjd2008
Posts: 152
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quote:
I gave you an answer... You said it cannot be defined, that everyone has their own view of it...
I told you I don't believe the pictures of her in the photo shoot were modest in nature... (And I said that before I saw the other pictures...) I am giving you an example of my idea of what isn't modesty in my view... What more do you want? A person you agreee with said it cannot be defined...
Btw... Attacking me doesn't help your cause...
Remember YOU said that there was no point in defining modesty ...seems McFatty has come up with a definition.
and I quote you
quote:
What's the point of defining it when no matter what anyone says it will be a matter opinion.... Even Paul's mention of modestly is subject to cultural habits or what people view walking down their street.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 9:17:08 PM
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sjd2008
Posts: 152
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quote:
It's about attitude... The whole picture... Are you willing to say it's ok to show off cleavage?
She doesn't show off cleavage in the Vanity Fair shots. The only part of her that is bare is her back. Which again brings back the question of whether or not showing a bare back is immodest.
We seem to be going in circles...
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 9:19:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Yes I judge getting drunk to be wrong. No I do not judge drunks.
You have a paradox there...
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I don't see folly in my statement, so you haven't shown it to me. Please explain. I'm trying to discuss this and understand your view while sharing mine.
You said we are not to judge...
I fully understand the subject of the thread, but the question was relevant in that we all know that everyone makes mistakes. Just because the person in question is a name many people recognize doesn't give us license to judge her more than we would judge anyone else (which is supposed to be none).
I showed where we have to at times... Right? We shouldn't let our children play with pedophiles, because we judge them... Eternally? NO... Temporally? You bet...
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Perhaps that's not your goal.
What irony...
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Why close the threads? I'm simply sharing my view that judgment should be left to God.
I saying you are wrong... You judge... You have to if not you'd sin all the time... In fact you have made judgment towards me in two of your posts...
quote:
I don't think public figures should be held to a higher standard. You do. To each his own.
I never said public figures, I said Christians...
John
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 9:21:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sjd2008
quote:
She's a public figure and makes her living selling her image(nothing wrong wth that...) yet she claims Christ(nothing wrong there either...) but with that comes a higher standard...
Please show in scripture where being a public figure forces her to a higher standard. I see lots in scripture about church leaders being judged by a higher standard, but not anyone else. I really don't see scriptural basis for your statement.
I never said a public figure was.... My comment regarding the higher standard followed the part about her claim of Christ...
John
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 9:23:50 PM
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Kath
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sjd2008
John-
Your tendency for hyperbole is rather boring.
Lets keep a lid on the TOS violations please.
Sincerely
Kath
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 9:26:35 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sjd2008
quote:
It's about attitude... The whole picture... Are you willing to say it's ok to show off cleavage?
She doesn't show off cleavage in the Vanity Fair shots.
I never said she did... I was responding to the following, which btw I quoted in my reply, yet you failed to... Interesting...
I've always seen the biblical definition of modesty as the word is used in context in the Bible. Look at 1 Timothy 2:9, where it's talking about not wearing "braided hairstyles and gold ornaments, or pearls, or expensive clothes". It's talking about not showing off one's wealth or stature.
Though in other pictures she does... On purpose...
quote:
The only part of her that is bare is her back. Which again brings back the question of whether or not showing a bare back is immodest.
Well like I posted prior the person says the picture were a mistake... So it seems your view of them doesn't align with her's...
quote:
We seem to be going in circles...
You want it to go anywhere away from the facts...
John
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 9:27:51 PM
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sjd2008
Posts: 152
Joined: 1/29/2008
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quote:
I never said a public figure was.... My comment regarding the higher standard followed the part about her claim of Christ...
When a sentence starts off with ...She's a public figure... That is part of your reasoning. Perhaps a better way of stating tis would be
As a Christian she should be held to a higher standard.
Whether or not she is a public figure and makes money off of that is not relevant. However, thie statement in italics seems to be what you are saying.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 9:31:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: sjd2008
quote:
I gave you an answer... You said it cannot be defined, that everyone has their own view of it...
I told you I don't believe the pictures of her in the photo shoot were modest in nature... (And I said that before I saw the other pictures...) I am giving you an example of my idea of what isn't modesty in my view... What more do you want? A person you agreee with said it cannot be defined...
Btw... Attacking me doesn't help your cause...
Remember YOU said that there was no point in defining modesty ...seems McFatty has come up with a definition.
Where? His posting of biblical text? From what he posted he doesn't seem to believe it even speaks of attire in whole sense... Do you agree?
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and I quote you
quote:
What's the point of defining it when no matter what anyone says it will be a matter opinion.... Even Paul's mention of modestly is subject to cultural habits or what people view walking down their street.
Yes, quote me... I am responding to you and those you agree with that say it cannot be defined... And when someone does define it you simply say it's a matter of culture, prejudice, personal views, etc...
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 5/5/2008 9:45:09 PM >
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 9:36:40 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sjd2008
When a sentence starts off with ...She's a public figure... That is part of your reasoning. Perhaps a better way of stating tis would be
As a Christian she should be held to a higher standard.
I already made that point... And I made it again in the post...
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Whether or not she is a public figure and makes money off of that is not relevant.
Not in regards to this being a public debate...
quote:
However, thie statement in italics seems to be what you are saying.
Of course it is and it's constant with my other posts...
John
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 9:40:15 PM
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sjd2008
Posts: 152
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quote:
Where? Is posting of biblical text? From what he posted he doesn't seem to believe it even speaks of attire in whole sense... Do you agree?
If I recall we asked for YOUR definition. I still don't see you defining modesty. If I have missed it, please repost or link to the article.
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/5/2008 9:46:39 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sjd2008
quote:
Where? Is posting of biblical text? From what he posted he doesn't seem to believe it even speaks of attire in whole sense... Do you agree?
If I recall we asked for YOUR definition. I still don't see you defining modesty. If I have missed it, please repost or link to the article.
I have... I gave you an example... The ball is in your court... Do I need to repeat your words on modesty and mine over an over again? No matter what I say you'll say it's my personal view... It's a pointless question. You've made it one... And you just want to stay clear of what is going on with Miley Cyrus...
John
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 4:42:15 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I've always seen the biblical definition of modesty as the word is used in context in the Bible. Look at 1 Timothy 2:9, where it's talking about not wearing "braided hairstyles and gold ornaments, or pearls, or expensive clothes". It's talking about not showing off one's wealth or stature.
It's about attitude... The whole picture... Are you willing to say it's ok to show off cleavage?
John
In truth, I don't think it's my place to tell anyone what to or what not to show off. I don't necessarily agree with the showing off of cleavage, but I don't think it violates the biblical definition of modesty we find in 1 Timothy 2:9. That may be dealt with elsewhere, but citing that verse is improper.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 4:44:15 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Yes I judge getting drunk to be wrong. No I do not judge drunks.
You have a paradox there...
quote:
I don't see folly in my statement, so you haven't shown it to me. Please explain. I'm trying to discuss this and understand your view while sharing mine.
You said we are not to judge...
I fully understand the subject of the thread, but the question was relevant in that we all know that everyone makes mistakes. Just because the person in question is a name many people recognize doesn't give us license to judge her more than we would judge anyone else (which is supposed to be none).
I showed where we have to at times... Right? We shouldn't let our children play with pedophiles, because we judge them... Eternally? NO... Temporally? You bet...
quote:
Perhaps that's not your goal.
What irony...
quote:
Why close the threads? I'm simply sharing my view that judgment should be left to God.
I saying you are wrong... You judge... You have to if not you'd sin all the time... In fact you have made judgment towards me in two of your posts...
quote:
I don't think public figures should be held to a higher standard. You do. To each his own.
I never said public figures, I said Christians...
John
I didn't say I never judge. I said I think I should strive not to. If you have taken my standards for myself and superimposed them onto your life, that's on you.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 8:35:28 AM
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StephK
Posts: 2334
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: sjd2008
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
There is none who is righteous, not even (a famous) one. Everything Jesus taught us about how to deal with others also applies to public figures.
Yet they make their living off of the TMZ's of our day.. so I don't pity them when they cry about how "rough" life is when the cameras are flashing as they go to the latest boutique or hot spot.
Getting back to the current subject matter - where did Miley ever proclaim to be a Christian?
Correction...TMZ makes their money off of our prurient interest in celebrities. Frankly, I find the tendency to elevate celebrity gossip to the level of actual news to be very disturbing. I also find the tendency for Christians to be hyper critical of other Christians who have made mistakes to be sad and contradictory. It's interesting that when people quote scripture about being judgmental it doesn't seem to make any difference.
That's something I've tried to work on. I know I'm not a perfect man, so who am I to judge the character or the life of another?
You are an adult, not her target audience. Her target audience are little girls. That is the problem. She and her father made a bad judgment call and are now dealing with the fallout. Parents bought her mediocre music, concert tickets and other paraphernalia for their children based on her wholesome, "Christian" persona. She didn't have to pose for Vanity Fair at this point in her career. Vanity Fair is not a teen magazine even. It's geared for the twenty-somethings and older.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 9:45:39 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4280
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
You are an adult, not her target audience. Her target audience are little girls. That is the problem. She and her father made a bad judgment call and are now dealing with the fallout. Parents bought her mediocre music, concert tickets and other paraphernalia for their children based on her wholesome, "Christian" persona. She didn't have to pose for Vanity Fair at this point in her career. Vanity Fair is not a teen magazine even. It's geared for the twenty-somethings and older.
Which semi- begs the question...why do parents of young children care that these pictures appear in Vanity Fair? They shouldn't be looking at Vanity Fair anyway.
Regarding higher standards...the bible says teachers of the Word are held to higher standard. Not public figures.
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 9:56:03 AM
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StephK
Posts: 2334
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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Why should parents turn their heads at the fact that this particular star is starting to tart herself up in order to reach a more adult audience? The problem is she's not an adult but still a 15 year old kid. They do have previous other child entertainers to base this decision on after all. Look at the other Disney stars, Britney, Jessica, Christina, Lindsey, etc.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Should Christian Entertainers Have High Moral Stand... - 5/6/2008 10:04:55 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I've always seen the biblical definition of modesty as the word is used in context in the Bible. Look at 1 Timothy 2:9, where it's talking about not wearing "braided hairstyles and gold ornaments, or pearls, or expensive clothes". It's talking about not showing off one's wealth or stature.
It's about attitude... The whole picture... Are you willing to say it's ok to show off cleavage?
John
In truth, I don't think it's my place to tell anyone what to or what not to show off. I don't necessarily agree with the showing off of cleavage, but I don't think it violates the biblical definition of modesty we find in 1 Timothy 2:9. That may be dealt with elsewhere, but citing that verse is improper.
You are wrong...
John
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