Question re: Joseph (Full Version)

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Little_1 -> Question re: Joseph (4/28/2008 3:18:35 PM)

What is your understanding on the life of Joseph, i.e.

1 do you believe that God turned the sin of Joseph's brothers and the circumstances Joseph found himself in as a result into a great blessing in the long run because that was God's original plan for Joseph's life?

OR

2 do you believe that God knew that Joseph's brothers would sin but God was able to engineer circumstances to 'work together for good' regardless of Joseph's brothers trying to rid of Joseph and this was not the original plan for Joseph's life but God brought good out of bad because that is how God works?

OR

3 do you have any other beliefs about the life story of Joseph? Please explain.



frankman -> RE: Question re: Joseph (4/28/2008 4:26:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Little_1


2 do you believe that God knew that Joseph's brothers would sin but God was able to engineer circumstances to 'work together for good' regardless of Joseph's brothers trying to rid of Joseph and this was not the original plan for Joseph's life but God brought good out of bad because that is how God works?



I think No. 2. Sin is never part of God`s original plan. However God has a way of using our sins and mistakes and making something pretty out of a very marred situation. This is what God did in Joseph`s case according to Gen.50:20. "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." I`m sure if Joseph`s brothers had not sinned, God would have found another way to get them into Egypt, or He may have saved them from the drought to start out with and kept them in the promise land. [sm=icon_smile_question.gif] Who are we to know because God`s ways are never our ways, nor do we understand the mind of God.



mvic -> RE: Question re: Joseph (4/28/2008 4:38:04 PM)

Well said frankman. Sin is never part of God's plan.

Joseph's brothers sinned; and God used that sin and turned it to good.

I'm a firm believer that when things go wrong in our lives ... no matter how wrong, we should praise God that He is still in control. Somehow, He will use that situation and turn it to good. We may not realise it straightaway, or even at all, but somehow it will turn into good. I have several examples in my life that this is so.

As frankman says: God's ways are not our ways; nor are we meant to understand His mind.



Liveloved -> RE: Question re: Joseph (4/28/2008 4:45:54 PM)

quote:

1 do you believe that God turned the sin of Joseph's brothers and the circumstances Joseph found himself in as a result into a great blessing in the long run because that was God's original plan for Joseph's life?

OR

2 do you believe that God knew that Joseph's brothers would sin but God was able to engineer circumstances to 'work together for good' regardless of Joseph's brothers trying to rid of Joseph and this was not the original plan for Joseph's life but God brought good out of bad because that is how God works?


Is there really any difference between these two alternatives?

Does God have any other than sinful men to use for His purposes?

Does not God use all men (righteous and wicked) to accomplish His purposes?

Does not God allow free will?

Is not God overruling all?

If God's 'original plan' does not include sinful men, then aren't we left out?

Your thoughts?



Little_1 -> RE: Question re: Joseph (4/29/2008 3:11:02 AM)

I believe number 2.

I believe that when we find ourselves in circumstances which are either our own doings or anothers against us - that God can work around these circumstances to fulfill good. They may not have been God's original plan for us because mankind has a free will and God's best for us is not always man's choosing but this does not prevent God working out His will regardless. I believe nothing can halt the plans of God.

I thank and praise God that no matter what circumstances or situations come into our lives that He knows the future and therefore He is the best person to trust our future to because He can engineer the future to still fulfill His will and purposes for us when we are surrendered to Him - regardless of man's doings previous and inbetween times.

Right now - hubby and I are facing a 'Joseph' experience and it is rather daunting looking at things with 'human eyes' but when we look at things with 'spritual eyes' then I know God is in control and we need to trust Him and His Word because no matter what man may do to us - God is still on the throne and He is working all things together for good. Hallelujah - praise You Heavenly Father.



Conquered -> RE: Question re: Joseph (4/29/2008 11:41:33 PM)

The answer is 1.

Scenario 2 is biblically indefensible and illogical. It also denies the possibilty of a God that is all powerful.

God wills sin, otherwise you must conclude that either Jesus' death was not willed by God from before the creation of the world, as the Scriptures state, and/or that Jesus' death was a random act predicated on hundreds of "free moral agents" who just happened to be so wrong that they collectively "got it right."

For God to will sin, to permit sin to accomplish his plans, does not make God sinful but the Ruler over all things, even sin, death and hell.



iamjc-s -> RE: Question re: Joseph (4/30/2008 12:15:52 PM)

-
God never wanted sin to enter the world, BUT even before He created man & woman, He new it would come.

God didn't cause several of Joseph's brothers to sin, YET He knew what they would do before they were even in Leah's womb.

Thus He ordained things so that through the brothers' very acts which they thought would sircumvent Joseph's dreams coming to fruition actually brought them about.



Little_1 -> RE: Question re: Joseph (4/30/2008 12:18:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iamjc-s

-
God never wanted sin to enter the world, BUT even before He created man & woman, He new it would come.

God didn't cause several of Joseph's brothers to sin, YET He knew what they would do before they were even in Leah's womb.

Thus He ordained things so that through the brothers' very acts which they thought would sircumvent Joseph's dreams coming to fruition actually brought them about.


AMEN.



Ganthet -> RE: Question re: Joseph (4/30/2008 12:37:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrokenMessenger

The answer is 1.

Scenario 2 is biblically indefensible and illogical. It also denies the possibilty of a God that is all powerful.

God wills sin, otherwise you must conclude that either Jesus' death was not willed by God from before the creation of the world, as the Scriptures state, and/or that Jesus' death was a random act predicated on hundreds of "free moral agents" who just happened to be so wrong that they collectively "got it right."

For God to will sin, to permit sin to accomplish his plans, does not make God sinful but the Ruler over all things, even sin, death and hell.



Please explain, in detail how Scenario 2 is indefensible. Also, please explain the illogic in the statement. I see nothing in the statement that even hints that God is not all powerful.

Additionally, I see nothing in Scripture to support the statement that "God wills sin." Since He dictates who is going to be born when and under what circumstances (and thus what personalities they will have - what they will do under what circumstances), I have no problem with Him arranging with the idea that God put the wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time so that The Wrong Thing would happen. So that even sinful man becomes His "instrument in the devising of things that he himself hath not imagined". I believe that is how J.R.R. Tolkien would have put it.

Personally, I see no real difference between option 1 and option 2. They seem the same to me. When God decided to create the Universe, He knew the End from the Beginning. So, He knew everyone's "plan" making it child's play to make sure that His Plan ruled over all.



Little_1 -> RE: Question re: Joseph (4/30/2008 1:25:10 PM)

I don't believe God 'makes' us do things to fulfill His plan as if we were robots but I do believe He lovingly guides and leads us by His Word, others and circumstances.

To give an example of what I mean:

Imagine a father taking his child to school. The time is set for school and the child must not be late. There is a standard to keep to. However, little 'Johnny' falls and cuts his knee; he has a temper tantrum and stomps around wasting time. Did all these things prevent the father in this story from getting little Johnny to school? No. The father was an expert in dealing with Johnny's tantrums; also mishaps at inconvenient times like tumbles and falls and knew just how to deal with his son in any given situation. Johnny still arrived at school because his father was well able to organise things to ensure he was not late and still arrived on time. So it is with God. He knows us and everything about us. He is well able to have us arrive at our destination (Heaven) despite our tumbles and falls into sin, etc. Like the father in this story, God works with the 'situations' and works everything together for good inbetween because He knows how best to (sometimes this will include encouragement or other times chastisement but God knows best). Johnny had a free will (hense the temper tantrum) but it did not prevent him getting to school because his father was an expert at dealing with such.

Our destiny is Heaven and eternity with God. Like the story of the father and little Johnny, no matter what happens in our lives (past, present or future and all the things inbetween times) God will still work it all for good for those who love Him and He will never allow anything to separate us from Him or our destination.

I'm still sticking with No 2 [sm=angel.gif]



Ganthet -> RE: Question re: Joseph (4/30/2008 1:53:42 PM)

I agree. God does not make us do anything. We choose. Just as He knew that we would!

Just as a note to your story: sometimes God allows us to be late for something (not Salvation, thank God!), especially if we need to learn to WAIT. Not that I can speak from personal experience or anything.....[;)]



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