War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> Morality & Ethics



Message

JBagley -> War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (4/28/2008 1:27:21 PM)

Please allow me to explain:

I am a new Christian. I was raised in the church, but I never had a personal relationship with Jesus until after reaching adulthood. I am also a war veteran, multiple times over. I have deployed to some of the more hostile areas in the world and engaged the enemies of my country (real or perceived) in mortal combat. The question I am asking is absolutely real and pressing on my mind. I have asked for guidance from God in this issue of my life, and have been drawn to ask others. What I am NOT asking for is personal opinions (They could easily derail this thread into nothing more than an ethical debate on the validity of war as a whole), but any scriptures concerning actions in war and their consequences on the people who performed them.

What I know so far:

1. Thou shalt not kill. (Old Testament)
2. Love thy neighbor. (New Testament)

I commonly asked other people who served with me (to include more than one Chaplain) if the actions I personally performed will be held against me when I am judged. For some reason I have yet to receive an answer that cannot be refuted by one of the two previously mentioned ideals. I have also been told that in becoming a Christian all my sins are forfeited by the grace of God. However, what if I do not feel as though my actions were sinful?

I am sure this is a convoluted situation to post, and any assistance on the matter would be greatly appreciated.



Qtman -> RE: War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (4/28/2008 4:28:27 PM)

For one thing Thou Shout Not Kill is referring to murder. There are all kind of references in the Bible where God himself either assisted or enabledwarriors to defeat their enemies including killing them.

I am sure what you did in your military days was because of orders and not out of personal hate toward anyone. In other words you did not commit murder. I hope this helps.



Jhud -> RE: War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (4/28/2008 4:43:43 PM)

I think what the New Testament speaks about the role of a lawful authority as a 'minister of God':

Romans 13:1 - 5
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority ? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

So, as a soldier, you acted as a minister of God on behalf of lawful authorities to 'bring wrath' on those who practice evil.

If in good conscience you can say you faithfully fulfilled your role in this respect, then not only will your 'sins not be held against you', but they are not sins at all.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (4/28/2008 7:07:46 PM)

Romans 13 don’t absolve nations and its soldiers from participating in wars that are not lawful or acting unlawfully in a lawful war...

John



lightshineon -> RE: War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (4/28/2008 7:09:27 PM)

Cornelius and Roman soldiers saved, and the first Gentile converts, as far as we know were still Roman Soldiers, after being baptised. Cornelius was considered a good man, even before, Peter, and being being baptised in the Holy Spirit he for sure then a Roman soldier, always praying to God, and giving alms to the poor. Jesus, marveled at a Roman Centerion's faith, "Jesus did not say go and sin no more." Jesus said, he had not seen that much faith in all of Isreal. So no the milatary is not sinful.



phosadaud -> RE: War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (4/28/2008 9:29:10 PM)

Qtman brought up the key point: Thou shalt not kill is actually thou shall not murder. Ecclesiastes even tells us there is a time to kill and a time for war.

And love thy neighbor means exactly that. Remember that God loves us more than any of us can comprehend and yet even He has struck people down. In the NT church, 2 folks were struck down for lying to the apostles about some land they sold. Does that mean God didn't love them? Of course not.

Sadly, we live in an imperfect world, with imperfect people and imperfect nations. Death is a reality - even being forgiven, there are consequences to living in a fallen world.

As the Roman Centurian, you were a man under orders serving a nation and your family far away. You did not sin in doing such. Even if the nation was wrong (and Rome was certainly very pagan and anti-God), Jesus told the people that He had never seen a greater faith in all of Israel than this Centurian. That says something!

And know this: Even if you sinned, know this - our forgiveness is not dependant on US. It is a gift freely given. We aren't forgiven because we "deserve it" or we "earned it through our contriteness". That would not be a gift. And that would not be grace.



Doc65 -> RE: War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (4/28/2008 9:55:51 PM)

quote:

And love thy neighbor means exactly that. Remember that God loves us more than any of us can comprehend and yet even He has struck people down.


Luther commented at length about soldiers and Christianity in his treatise "Even Soldiers, too Can Be Saved" and "Prayer Against the Turks" (I probably misquoted the title, the pain pills are kicking my behind tonight...). He saw the work of soldiers who obey their superiors as acting on behalf of the neighbor - protecting them by slaying those who would otherwise kill or enslave them. He also viewed the soldier's vocation and office as an honorable and necessary thing and acting as an extension of God's authority through human government.

Finally, as a former soldier myself, the one thing that always seemed to weigh heavily on the combat troops' minds was summed up by a good friend who had seen some ugly stuff in WWII, Korea and Viet Nam:
"Why do people always ask me how many people I've killed? Why doesn't anyone ever ask me how many people I've saved?"



Jhud -> RE: War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (4/28/2008 11:05:18 PM)

quote:

Romans 13 don’t absolve nations and its soldiers from participating in wars that are not lawful or acting unlawfully in a lawful war...


I didn't say it did.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (4/29/2008 12:16:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Romans 13 don’t absolve nations and its soldiers from participating in wars that are not lawful or acting unlawfully in a lawful war...


I didn't say it did.


I didn't say you did :)

John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (4/29/2008 12:39:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud


As the Roman Centurian, you were a man under orders serving a nation and your family far away. You did not sin in doing such. Even if the nation was wrong (and Rome was certainly very pagan and anti-God), Jesus told the people that He had never seen a greater faith in all of Israel than this Centurian. That says something!



Pilate was a agent of the state and Jesus said he sinned in the operation of his duties... So we can gather from that that serving a nation isn't a shield against personal sin...

As for the Roman Centurion...With Salvation comes change... I doubt the Roman soldiers who help run the games at the Coliseum where pardoned for their actions because they were following orders…

John



lightshineon -> RE: War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (4/29/2008 12:59:40 PM)

What about Cornelius in Acts, who was described as a good man, before and after Peters visit, bet he did not leave the Roman Legion. I am sure God made a way of escape from Christian soldiers killing Christians. He was still as far as we know, a Roman Soldier, before and after. We know scripture said he prayed everyday to God, and gave to the poor, as a Roman soldier, a very good man.
quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud


As the Roman Centurian, you were a man under orders serving a nation and your family far away. You did not sin in doing such. Even if the nation was wrong (and Rome was certainly very pagan and anti-God), Jesus told the people that He had never seen a greater faith in all of Israel than this Centurian. That says something!



Pilate was a agent of the state and Jesus said he sinned in the operation of his duties... So we can gather from that that serving a nation isn't a shield against personal sin...

As for the Roman Centurion...With Salvation comes change... I doubt the Roman soldiers who help run the games at the Coliseum where pardoned for their actions because they were following orders…

John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (4/29/2008 1:10:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

What about Cornelius in Acts, who was described as a good man, before and after Peters visit, bet he did not leave the Roman Legion. I am sure God made a way of escape from Christian soldiers killing Christians. He was still as far as we know, a Roman Soldier, before and after. We know scripture said he prayed everyday to God, and gave to the poor, as a Roman soldier, a very good man.



Cornelius' situation doesn't equate to blanket statement that one is exempt from sin because they are acting on behalf of the state...

If I were to bet I would say that Cornelius behavior was pivitol, and the fact he was in the Roman Legion is really besides the point...

And just for fun... In my view Cornelius wasn't a good man prior to Peter's visit, he was a true believer... Prayers to God are done so by through the Spirit, not man alone...

John



lightshineon -> RE: War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (4/29/2008 2:11:24 PM)

The Bible said Cornelius was a good man, and There were Roman soldiers who became saved and baptized in Acts. He was the first Gentile baptized in The Holy Spirit. I belive the other soldiers, under him were saved. Yes this is a valid argument. Can't deny the truth John. True believer, meaning he followed the ways of God and was a rightouess man.I like the Newsboys song about him " His kneel was real"



JBagley -> RE: War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (4/29/2008 3:17:44 PM)

I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions on this thread. It seems as though there are varying opinions on the subject that I brought here. If nothing else I have two more sources to look to in the Bible that will assist me in coming to terms with this issue.

Once again, thank you all for your responses and I will continue to return to this thread for further reading.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: War-Time Actions and Their Consequences... (4/29/2008 6:31:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

The Bible said Cornelius was a good man,

never in quesiton...


As I stated... Maybe you didn't understand my point...

And just for fun... In my view Cornelius wasn't a good man prior to Peter's visit, he was a true believer... Prayers to God are done so by through the Spirit, not man alone...

To be more direct... I believe Cornelius was saved before he met with Peter... As I stated, prayers to God are done so by through the Spirit, not man alone



quote:


and There were Roman soldiers who became saved and baptized in Acts. He was the first Gentile baptized in The Holy Spirit. I belive the other soldiers, under him were saved. Yes this is a valid argument. Can't deny the truth John. True believer, meaning he followed the ways of God and was a rightouess man.I like the Newsboys song about him " His kneel was real"


What argument is valid? Cornelius beiing saved isn't the issue, nor is something I ever denied... How does Cornelius' situation equate to to blanket statement that one is exempt from sin because they are acting on behalf of the state... That's a HUGE leap...

Once again... Here's my point(s)...

Some more points...

Pilate was a agent of the state and Jesus said he sinned in the operation of his duties... So we can gather from that that serving a nation isn't a shield against personal sin...

As for the Roman Centurion...With Salvation comes change... I doubt the Roman soldiers who help run the games at the Coliseum where pardoned for their actions because they were following orders…

According to the following,

As the Roman Centurian, you were a man under orders serving a nation and your family far away. You did not sin in doing such. Even if the nation was wrong (and Rome was certainly very pagan and anti-God), Jesus told the people that He had never seen a greater faith in all of Israel than this Centurian. That says something!

The soldiers at the death camps were not acting in a sinful manner... Nor where the Roman soldiers who worked at the Coliseum... For that matter Pilate, yet Christ himself said othewise...

John



Page: [1]



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI