RE: Gods will or Free will (Full Version)

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atruefaith -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/30/2008 3:46:26 PM)

Abounding, don’t be mistaken. I’ve tremendously enjoyed our conversation. IOW, I love you too, brother and appreciate your candor and humility. Please keep in mind that brevity and an innate bluntness forces me to write the way I do.

Anyway, I do think this discussion is very critical because I believe it will lead to a deeper humility all the way around.

So let's assume that your take on these verses is correct, and that whole world mentioned in 1 John 2:2 and John 3:16 does means the whole world without exception. In this case, would you object to the assertion that the Scriptures do teach that not everyone goes heaven and that many do go to hell? If you do not object and believe that the Scriptures do teach that not everyone goes to heaven then you have an immediate contradiction between these verses and several others, particularly teachings from the Lord Jesus' own lips who said that many will go to hell.

The specific concern here is that if Jesus’ death atoned for everyone’s sin, then why do some end up in hell? You might say: “Because they did not choose God” or “Because they did not believe.” But is not rebellion and unbelief both sins that should be covered by the cross, even if they are willful? Why are these sins suddenly “too powerful” for Jesus to atone for by his death, particularly if Jesus’ death was for the “sins of the whole world?” You might object with “But they willfully resisted and rejected Jesus’ atonement, they did not believe in him to share in it” to which one must conclude that their rejection and resistance then must have a special power that is too great for the cross to save them from themselves and that the cross also needs something from you or I to make the transaction whole. Again you might say: “But they resisted in the full knowledge of what they were doing” to which the Scriptures say no, they are blind, they see yet do not see, they hear yet do not understand - and so you are still saying that in their blindness, in their powerless nature to do only those things that oppose God, they still have some power in themselves that is too great for him to overcome by the cross.

The point at which you conclude that Jesus will reject a sinner to hell for their unbelief, while having the full power to save them, is the point at which the choice and the power behind it ultimately rests with him, not us. The moment you say “Jesus can’t save that sinner because he possessed the power to reject him and acted on that power” is the moment you conclude that God is not all-powerful and that Jesus’ work on the cross is not strong enough to save anyone he wishes to save.

So what if John meant in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus' atoning sacrifice was sufficient to atone for all sin, any sin committed by any man, but that he can exercise that power however he pleases over whomever he pleases? Jesus holds all power over death and hell, but clearly in that power, he does send the unbeliever to hell.



terryjohn -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/30/2008 4:05:56 PM)

Well if you think about it you really can't choose something that God doesn't allow. For instance you can not worship other gods for there are none for God Himself has not created them. Now there are some who say they do, but the reality is they are no gods. It is like going someplace were God can not come and you find it is impossible for He created everything even Hell.

You could say God has provided us with everything and it is up to us whether we choose to use all He has provided unto life or death.

I once heard it put as making a choose between which tie you will wear and getting angry with God because He does not let you choose the tie that does not exist. That is we can freely in Christ choose to do good but we wilfully do otherwise. In the end we desire that God take this cursed free will away and pray that His will be done and not ours.



AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: Gods will or Free will (4/30/2008 11:44:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrokenMessenger

Abounding, don’t be mistaken. I’ve tremendously enjoyed our conversation. IOW, I love you too, brother and appreciate your candor and humility. Please keep in mind that brevity and an innate bluntness forces me to write the way I do.

Anyway, I do think this discussion is very critical because I believe it will lead to a deeper humility all the way around.

So let's assume that your take on these verses is correct, and that whole world mentioned in 1 John 2:2 and John 3:16 does means the whole world without exception. In this case, would you object to the assertion that the Scriptures do teach that not everyone goes heaven and that many do go to hell? If you do not object and believe that the Scriptures do teach that not everyone goes to heaven then you have an immediate contradiction between these verses and several others, particularly teachings from the Lord Jesus' own lips who said that many will go to hell.

The specific concern here is that if Jesus’ death atoned for everyone’s sin, then why do some end up in hell? You might say: “Because they did not choose God” or “Because they did not believe.” But is not rebellion and unbelief both sins that should be covered by the cross, even if they are willful? Why are these sins suddenly “too powerful” for Jesus to atone for by his death, particularly if Jesus’ death was for the “sins of the whole world?” You might object with “But they willfully resisted and rejected Jesus’ atonement, they did not believe in him to share in it” to which one must conclude that their rejection and resistance then must have a special power that is too great for the cross to save them from themselves and that the cross also needs something from you or I to make the transaction whole. Again you might say: “But they resisted in the full knowledge of what they were doing” to which the Scriptures say no, they are blind, they see yet do not see, they hear yet do not understand - and so you are still saying that in their blindness, in their powerless nature to do only those things that oppose God, they still have some power in themselves that is too great for him to overcome by the cross.

The point at which you conclude that Jesus will reject a sinner to hell for their unbelief, while having the full power to save them, is the point at which the choice and the power behind it ultimately rests with him, not us. The moment you say “Jesus can’t save that sinner because he possessed the power to reject him and acted on that power” is the moment you conclude that God is not all-powerful and that Jesus’ work on the cross is not strong enough to save anyone he wishes to save.

So what if John meant in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus' atoning sacrifice was sufficient to atone for all sin, any sin committed by any man, but that he can exercise that power however he pleases over whomever he pleases? Jesus holds all power over death and hell, but clearly in that power, he does send the unbeliever to hell.


I believe a lot of people go to hell yes. I am not a universalist by no means, far from it. The reason they go to hell is because they didn't REPENT plain and simple. I don't understand how those verses contradict other verses and that is not my take on the verse that is what the verse says look up in any concordance and look at the meaning of the word, World and all there. This is back tracking to previous post, but to suggest that God made Adam and Eve to sin is just absurd imo. He commands them not to do something, then wills them to do it, then punishes them for it. I just don't see a God of Love or a Just God doing that.



Ezra -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/1/2008 12:15:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
How can a slave of sin have free-will?


Sammy:

Slavery to sin is metaphor in the Bible applied to all human beings who are without Christ and therefore under the control of their sinful natures (and eventually Satan who manipulates them).

However, the analogy should not be stretched beyond it's limits (as some have done).

So let's see how Scripture explains how a slave to sin can have free-will:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the Law, DO BY NATURE the things contained in the Law, these having not the Law, are a Law unto themselves, which show the work of the Law written in their hearts, THEIR CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another... Therefore if the Uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the Law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?" (Rom. 2:14,15,26).

What is Paul teaching here?

1. Slaves to sin can do righteous deeds.
2. Every man has a conscience (which Scripture says is "the work of the Law written in their hearts"), and many who do not have Christ can still be guided by their conscience.
3. Even those who do not know the Law of Moses and are uncircumcised Gentiles, can "keep the righteousness of the Law" by following their conscience.

Thus the "slave to sin" analogy does not mean that all men are continuously evil, or uncontrolled by their consciences, or lacking the ability to make righteous choices. This is borne out in the real world.

It simply means that humanity cannot esape the bondage of sin (the tendency within our souls to sin and transgress God's laws) without regeneration and the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

The free will of men and angels is clearly revealed in Scripture. Denial of free-will is a novelty which came into being through the notions of men such as Augustine, Luther, Calvin and others, who literally wanted to put God in a box.

God's absolute sovereignty and man's limited free-will do exist side-by-side without distorting either. A thorough searching of the Scriptures will confirm this.



SD456 -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/1/2008 12:23:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fortydays

If its Gods will how can we have free will? I hope this does not sound like a dum question.


I don't believe that God pre-determines every little thing in our lives. I believe He knows what will happen, but He doesn't plan everything out. He allows some things to take their course.

I believe we have a free will and we choose to follow Christ or not and submit ourselves to His will.



justajerk -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/1/2008 1:54:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
How can a slave of sin have free-will?


Sammy:

Slavery to sin is metaphor in the Bible applied to all human beings who are without Christ and therefore under the control of their sinful natures (and eventually Satan who manipulates them).

However, the analogy should not be stretched beyond it's limits (as some have done).

So let's see how Scripture explains how a slave to sin can have free-will:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the Law, DO BY NATURE the things contained in the Law, these having not the Law, are a Law unto themselves, which show the work of the Law written in their hearts, THEIR CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another... Therefore if the Uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the Law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?" (Rom. 2:14,15,26).

What is Paul teaching here?

1. Slaves to sin can do righteous deeds.
2. Every man has a conscience (which Scripture says is "the work of the Law written in their hearts"), and many who do not have Christ can still be guided by their conscience.
3. Even those who do not know the Law of Moses and are uncircumcised Gentiles, can "keep the righteousness of the Law" by following their conscience.

Thus the "slave to sin" analogy does not mean that all men are continuously evil, or uncontrolled by their consciences, or lacking the ability to make righteous choices. This is borne out in the real world.

It simply means that humanity cannot esape the bondage of sin (the tendency within our souls to sin and transgress God's laws) without regeneration and the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

The free will of men and angels is clearly revealed in Scripture. Denial of free-will is a novelty which came into being through the notions of men such as Augustine, Luther, Calvin and others, who literally wanted to put God in a box.

God's absolute sovereignty and man's limited free-will do exist side-by-side without distorting either. A thorough searching of the Scriptures will confirm this.

Now I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but that is some serious gymnastics with scripture! Without getting long winded I'll just point you to here or here.



justajerk -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/1/2008 1:47:54 PM)

quote:

He commands them not to do something, then wills them to do it, then punishes them for it. I just don't see a God of Love or a Just God doing that.
This sounds pretty much exactly like what happened in 1 Samuel 2...
12Now the sons of Eli were worthless men. They did not know the LORD.
17Thus the sin of the young men was very great in the sight of the LORD, for the men treated the offering of the LORD with contempt.
22Now Eli was very old, and he kept hearing all that his sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who were serving at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 23And he said to them, "Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all the people. 24No, my sons; it is no good report that I hear the people of the LORD spreading abroad. 25If someone sins against a man, God will mediate for him, but if someone sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?"

Here you''ve got quite the dilemma, Eli's sons are quite sinful and we know that God does not wish anyone to commit adultry, let alone the other sins they were commiting. So what was going on?
...But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for it was the will of the LORD to put them to death.

Does this mean God is not a loving God or a Just God? No, but it does show a Sovereign God; and the whole of scripture proves this out. The thing is, we can't just take certain snippets of scripture and use them out of context to make a point. I see a whole lot of personal opinions going on here with no (contextually accurate) scripture to back them up. Let's discuss these things in a way that brings glory to Him, and that means seeking to understand what He is saying, rather than what we would like Him to say.



atruefaith -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/1/2008 1:56:51 PM)

quote:

I believe a lot of people go to hell yes. I am not a universalist by no means, far from it.


Never concluded that you were, but was I was trying to show you the inevitable conclusion of your argument.

quote:

The reason they go to hell is because they didn't REPENT plain and simple.


1. Of course, but this is about how a soul is granted or denied access to Christ, not how they are actually redeemed from their sin, including unbelief. My repentance is worthless if there is not atonement.

2. So who gave you the power to come to Jesus, was it you or was it God?

3. Christ on the cross paid the penalty so that we might repent and be saved. The question here is how powerful was/is Jesus’ work on the cross? Is it powerful enough to save a soul in itself or does it lack the power to do so and requires our choice to be coupled with it in order to be made powerful enough to save?


quote:

I don't understand how those verses contradict other verses and that is not my take on the verse that is what the verse says look up in any concordance and look at the meaning of the word, World and all there.


Let me make two statements to remove any concern….

1. I believe that the unrepentant do go to hell.
2. I don’t believe that Scripture contradicts itself.

Let’s consider another verse in 1 John 2 then….

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. – 1 John 2:15

I’m not to love anything in the world without exception? How about my brother whom Jesus commanded me to love who is in the world?

We both know what “anything in the world” and “love the world” really means and the Apostle John defined it in the proceeding verse. I think there is more to consider here than you realize.

quote:

This is back tracking to previous post, but to suggest that God made Adam and Eve to sin is just absurd imo. He commands them not to do something, then wills them to do it, then punishes them for it. I just don't see a God of Love or a Just God doing that.


So you don’t think it to be any less absurd that an all-powerful God willed creatures into being knowing that they would sin and knowing that most would reject him and go to hell - all while God really doesn’t have any more say in the matter on account of free moral agency? You can’t really skirt your own words if you just think that God created us and left us with a choice he knew most of us wouldn’t make, unlikely to make, or couldn’t make as the Scriptures state.

God permits sin. I think we can agree on that. And if God permits something that he knows full well is going to happen then he wills it. “I will let you go” “I will allow it” “we say things like these all the time.



justajerk -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/1/2008 3:05:35 PM)

quote:

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. – 1 John 2:15

I’m not to love anything in the world without exception? How about my brother whom Jesus commanded me to love who is in the world?

We both know what “anything in the world” and “love the world” really means and the Apostle John defined it in the proceeding verse. I think there is more to consider here than you realize.
Interesting. [8|]



SD456 -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/1/2008 3:20:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: justajerk

quote:

He commands them not to do something, then wills them to do it, then punishes them for it. I just don't see a God of Love or a Just God doing that.
This sounds pretty much exactly like what happened in 1 Samuel 2...
12Now the sons of Eli were worthless men. They did not know the LORD.
17Thus the sin of the young men was very great in the sight of the LORD, for the men treated the offering of the LORD with contempt.
22Now Eli was very old, and he kept hearing all that his sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who were serving at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 23And he said to them, "Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all the people. 24No, my sons; it is no good report that I hear the people of the LORD spreading abroad. 25If someone sins against a man, God will mediate for him, but if someone sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?"

Here you''ve got quite the dilemma, Eli's sons are quite sinful and we know that God does not wish anyone to commit adultry, let alone the other sins they were commiting. So what was going on?
...But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for it was the will of the LORD to put them to death.

Does this mean God is not a loving God or a Just God? No, but it does show a Sovereign God; and the whole of scripture proves this out. The thing is, we can't just take certain snippets of scripture and use them out of context to make a point. I see a whole lot of personal opinions going on here with no (contextually accurate) scripture to back them up. Let's discuss these things in a way that brings glory to Him, and that means seeking to understand what He is saying, rather than what we would like Him to say.


I don't believe that that verse proves that God is the one who hardened the young men's hearts. Those young men originally decided on their own to do abominable things before God and disregard God. They hardened their own hearts with disobedience and rebellion. God did not.

God is simply deciding that He will not put up with anymore of it and will soon slay them as punishment for the rebellion that they had obviously spent many years in and will not give them any more chance to repent. Knowing how God dealt with Israel throughout the bible, I believe that God gave Eli's son's many chances to repent and they continually hardened their own hearts against it, thus God now decided that they've crossed the line and He closed their ears completely to their Father (which basically those young men had already done for themselves).

IMO this does not prove in any way that God is the one who created them to rebel or MADE them rebel.



SD456 -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/1/2008 3:28:14 PM)

quote:

1. Of course, but this is about how a soul is granted or denied access to Christ, not how they are actually redeemed from their sin, including unbelief. My repentance is worthless if there is not atonement.

2. So who gave you the power to come to Jesus, was it you or was it God?

3. Christ on the cross paid the penalty so that we might repent and be saved. The question here is how powerful was/is Jesus’ work on the cross? Is it powerful enough to save a soul in itself or does it lack the power to do so and requires our choice to be coupled with it in order to be made powerful enough to save?


I believe you're making a supposition that is not correct. You are supposing that if someone rejects Christ's atonement made on their behalf that that somehow makes Christ's atonement not powerful enough. (If I'm understanding you correctly).

You are supposing that if someone believes we need to accept Jesus by faith that there is some type of 'work' involved. When God streches forth His hand with the gift of salvation it requires us to stretch out our hand to receive it. The 'receiving' of that gift is not a work, but it is the one thing that men must do - 'believing' is not a 'work' it is an action brought about by our will of accepting the free gift.

But the argument doesn't really matter in the scheme of things because all that matters is that people are saved - the process of how that happens is rather a ridiculous argument as both camps of the church believe that Jesus Christ is God's son and they wish to follow Him.



AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/1/2008 3:33:51 PM)

Amen SD456,

Now for TULIP people :), If you are right in your thinking, why does God command us to love people he hates, aren't we to be like him? If that is the case it is ok to hate people who aren't his elect.



SD456 -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/1/2008 3:43:19 PM)

quote:

God permits sin. I think we can agree on that. And if God permits something that he knows full well is going to happen then he wills it. “I will let you go” “I will allow it” “we say things like these all the time.


Saying God allows something and saying that God orchestrated that something to happen are two entirely different things.

One camp says that God allows our free will, the other says that since God allows it then He planned mankind to sin and fall away. IMO the latter is not the case. Our free will is the most precious gift God could have given to His creation, and while there are a very few cases in scripture where God intervened and actually hardened someone's heart, those cases happened only after that person or people first hardened their own hearts against God.

If I were omniscient (and thankfully I'm not) and I had a party for my little girl, knowing that during the party she would trip and break her arm, does that mean that I orchestrated the whole thing and it was my pre-determined plan to break her arm? Or does it simply mean that I knew an accident was going to happen and allowed the party to happen anyway. Now, knowing that she will get hurt I could watch her like a hawk, pamper her every step, and make sure every obstacle is taken out of her way and decide that she absolutely shall NEVER get hurt - or I could be of the opinion that it would not be good for my little girl to be kept from every accident, hurt or sad thing that could happen in the natural course of her life and step back and allow it to happen.

Of course God in his infinite wisdom knows what things will help us in our growth and character and what things will not and does step in sometimes, while other times he steps back. It does not mean that God orchestrated all of those things it means that God allows our lives to go a direction that we choose for the most part while also stepping in and directing us a certain direction when we ask Him to and He deems it important to.

That's my thoughts on it.



justajerk -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/1/2008 3:56:16 PM)

quote:

I don't believe that that verse proves that God is the one who hardened the young men's hearts. Those young men originally decided on their own to do abominable things before God and disregard God. They hardened their own hearts with disobedience and rebellion. God did not.
Scripture?


quote:

God is simply deciding that He will not put up with anymore of it and will soon slay them as punishment for the rebellion that they had obviously spent many years in and will not give them any more chance to repent. Knowing how God dealt with Israel throughout the bible, I believe that God gave Eli's son's many chances to repent and they continually hardened their own hearts against it, thus God now decided that they've crossed the line and He closed their ears completely to their Father (which basically those young men had already done for themselves).

IMO this does not prove in any way that God is the one who created them to rebel or MADE them rebel.
God is simply deciding? It would be understandable if the verse stated "they would not listen... and because of this the Lord decided to put them to death".
However, I would rather look at what is actually written; you are disregarding the words "they would not listen... for it was the will of the Lord". Why? Why would the author write this to specifically state that the Lord caused them to not listen to their father?



justajerk -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/1/2008 4:01:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace

Amen SD456,

Now for TULIP people :), If you are right in your thinking, why does God command us to love people he hates, aren't we to be like him? If that is the case it is ok to hate people who aren't his elect.
If you wouldn't mind pointing them out? [;)]
Seem's to me that as long as someones breathing there is a chance that God could change their stoney heart.



SD456 -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/1/2008 4:40:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: justajerk

quote:

I don't believe that that verse proves that God is the one who hardened the young men's hearts. Those young men originally decided on their own to do abominable things before God and disregard God. They hardened their own hearts with disobedience and rebellion. God did not.
Scripture?


quote:

God is simply deciding that He will not put up with anymore of it and will soon slay them as punishment for the rebellion that they had obviously spent many years in and will not give them any more chance to repent. Knowing how God dealt with Israel throughout the bible, I believe that God gave Eli's son's many chances to repent and they continually hardened their own hearts against it, thus God now decided that they've crossed the line and He closed their ears completely to their Father (which basically those young men had already done for themselves).

IMO this does not prove in any way that God is the one who created them to rebel or MADE them rebel.
God is simply deciding? It would be understandable if the verse stated "they would not listen... and because of this the Lord decided to put them to death".
However, I would rather look at what is actually written; you are disregarding the words "they would not listen... for it was the will of the Lord". Why? Why would the author write this to specifically state that the Lord caused them to not listen to their father?


No, I believe I read it correctly. "It was the will of the Lord to slay them". yes, it was God's will. That is the punishment that God decided to dole out to them after they had already spent years in rebellion hardening their own hearts. Scripture does not say that God hardened their hearts from the beginning nor does it say at what age they began their rebellion. No doubt it had been going on for years for that type of hardenness does not usually manifest itself overnight.

If you believe I'm reading into things, well I believe that you are reading into things. So we graciously agree to disagree on that point.



atruefaith -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/1/2008 7:58:44 PM)

quote:

Scripture does not say that God hardened their hearts from the beginning nor does it say at what age they began their rebellion.


But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you.- Exodus 7:3-4a (emphasis mine)

The magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the LORD had said. - Exodus 8:19

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses. - Exodus 9:12

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them - Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. - Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go - Exodus 10:27

Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country. - Exodus 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this. -Exodus 14:4

The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly. - Exodus 14:8


Do you think the inspired writer was out to make a point here?


One more thing....

quote:

That is the punishment that God decided to dole out to them after they had already spent years in rebellion hardening their own hearts.


Do you really mean after here? As in God didn't know that they would sin/be as wicked as they were until after they were?



atruefaith -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/1/2008 9:34:45 PM)

quote:

If I were omniscient (and thankfully I'm not) and I had a party for my little girl, knowing that during the party she would trip and break her arm, does that mean that I orchestrated the whole thing and it was my pre-determined plan to break her arm?


Ok, let's run with this a little bit because I think you misunderstand what I mean by "orchestrate" so let me define it through your analogy.

If you were God (and thankfully you are not [;)]) you would also be omnipotent as well and so you would do everything just as you pleased - just as God does now. And you would not only know that your little girl would break her arm but in that knowledge and power you would know AND have the full means to stop your little girl's arm from breaking. You see an all-powerful, fully capable Being such as our Lord predetermines by action and inaction, by intervention and by staying.

The moment God created Adam and Eve according to his will, according to his plan before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20, Ephesians 1:4) was the moment that set off a chain reaction of foreknown events. God does see down through the corridors of time, but in that seeing he also saw himself intervening in the lives of men to bring glory to himself. God saw himself to be constantly at work, unfolding and working out his set plan through the acts of sinful men.

Each day God is allowing and disallowing events, whether he is doing something today to curb a thousand things a hundred years from now or allowing some act that will naturally take its course to produce a result he desires. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction in the unverse and similarly God, knowing every possibly outcome to every possible act, is not only ten billion moves ahead of us, but is making moves that will produce ten billion desired moves by us.

It's simply humbling and staggering, and simply incomprehensible.



Ezra -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/2/2008 12:06:22 AM)

quote:

Now I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but that is some serious gymnastics with scripture!


I have to concur. You are not the sharpest tool. Why don't you tell us about these imagined "serious gymnastics" instead of forwarding us to some web site in cyberspace? Show us that there is another interpretation to the Scriptures quoted.



atruefaith -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/2/2008 2:18:45 AM)

quote:

1. Slaves to sin can do righteous deeds.


Not so, at least not insomuch that they can do anything righteous before God.

All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and made us waste away because of our sins. -Isaiah 64:7-8

Slaves are mastered, have masters whom they obey. Consider what Jesus said to those who rejected him....

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. - John 8:44

The evil deeds of a wicked man ensnare him;
the cords of his sin hold him fast. -Proverbs 5:22

quote:

2. Every man has a conscience (which Scripture says is "the work of the Law written in their hearts"), and many who do not have Christ can still be guided by their conscience.


One problem...

No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. - Romans 2:29

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. - Romans 3:20

It reads as if you are saying that those who do not have Christ, who are merely guided by their conscience, can perfectly follow that conscience. That's where I think JaJ took issue with your interpretation.

Paul is leveling the moral playing field with an argument against Jewish legalism and the belief that works can save by showing these religious Jews that even if the Gentiles, who are uncircumcised and ignorant of the law, keep and obey the law they would be declared righteous. But Paul is immediately very clear that no one is righteous, no not one. (Romans 3:10).

quote:

Thus the "slave to sin" analogy does not mean that all men are continuously evil, or uncontrolled by their consciences, or lacking the ability to make righteous choices. This is borne out in the real world.


No it isn't. What is borne out in the real world is that humans are hoplessly controlled by addictions to television, food, their family, their boss' approval, sports, drugs, sex, or anything else that would distract them from glorifying the Living God.

quote:

It simply means that humanity cannot esape the bondage of sin (the tendency within our souls to sin and transgress God's laws) without regeneration and the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.


How can you say in one breath that being a slave to sin does not mean "that all men are continuously evil or uncontrolled by their conscience, or lacking the ability to make righteous choices" and then in the other say that "humanity cannot escape the bondage of sin?"

It's not bondage if I can come and go as I please.

quote:

The free will of men and angels is clearly revealed in Scripture. Denial of free-will is a novelty which came into being through the notions of men such as Augustine, Luther, Calvin and others, who literally wanted to put God in a box.


The free will of man is a myth that is denied by Scripture. Augustine, Luther, Edwards, Spurgeon, Mueller were simply embracing the notion that God is really God over all things - even their desires to want God in the first place.

quote:

God's absolute sovereignty and man's limited free-will do exist side-by-side without distorting either. A thorough searching of the Scriptures will confirm this.


God is not absolutely sovereign if he surrenders control over the "fate" of my salvation to me, who as you say is "under the bondage of sin."



AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/2/2008 9:35:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: justajerk

quote:

ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace

Amen SD456,

Now for TULIP people :), If you are right in your thinking, why does God command us to love people he hates, aren't we to be like him? If that is the case it is ok to hate people who aren't his elect.
If you wouldn't mind pointing them out? [;)]
Seem's to me that as long as someones breathing there is a chance that God could change their stoney heart.


I agree, I was talking about people who say that God loves his elect and hates others. They use the Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated verse.



AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/2/2008 9:38:54 AM)

Broken do believe that God wills people to sin to prove his power?



iamjc-s -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/2/2008 11:21:47 AM)

-
Nothing was/is predestended just preknown.

We have plenty of choices & God doesn't force us into any of them, yet He know ahead of time what choices we would/will make.
-



justajerk -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/2/2008 12:20:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

Now I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but that is some serious gymnastics with scripture!


I have to concur. You are not the sharpest tool. Why don't you tell us about these imagined "serious gymnastics" instead of forwarding us to some web site in cyberspace? Show us that there is another interpretation to the Scriptures quoted.
Ah! agreement at last! [:D]
However, it look's like Broken has done what I did not have the time to do. The purpose of the links was to give you some resources to test your conclusion for yourself; if you did not like the one commentary, I also gave a link to multiple commentaries in which you could search for one that might agree with your teaching. May have been bad form but I meant well.



atruefaith -> RE: Gods will or Free will (5/2/2008 12:31:37 PM)

quote:

Broken do believe that God wills people to sin to prove his power?


No. I believe that God willed sin to enter the world in order reveal and display a better glory for himself on the other side of it.

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. -Romans 5:18



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