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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/7/2008 5:38:03 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
ME: and yet scripture promised to children spoken of in romans 7
YOU: I don't know what this is supposed to mean. Do you mean Romans 9 instead?
yes i was refering to romans 9
quote:
dt 30
ME : 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, ' Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
YOU: 1. Again, was every descendant of Israel saved without exception? Paul says, not at all for not all Israel is Israel. Are you arguing that the wicked that descended from Abraham that perished in the desert, and well after, were saved?
no i am not arguing salvation at all but ability, freewill speaks to ability not salvation. did the israelites have the ability to obey? is that not what moses told them in this passage?
quote:
2. Are you a Jew, john mark? I see no promise for the Chaldean, the Assryian, the Egyptian or Ethopian here? Where is the ability for members of all other nations to obey God's call? Where is the promise that is made to them, where is the convenant between them and God?
If there is no revelation made to them, how did they see enough to freely choose?
my question is did the israelites have an ability to obey God?
quote:
i wont post jeremiah 35 because the whole chapter has to read, but the story of the rechabites makes no sense if those to whom jeremiah spoke did not have the ability to obey. these are two passages that speak to the ability of the children of the promise to obey, the passage in romans tells of their ability to reject. to posses the ability to obey and the ability to reject = freewill
If anyone has the ability to obey it is granted first by God. The passage only makes sense if God had already previously granted, even many years prior, the capability for the Rechabites to obey. He certainly foreknew their response and therefore he planned how they would respond to Jeremiah.
in jer 35, jeremiah is contrasting the obedience of the rechabites towards their father, versus the obedience of Judah towards God.
14 The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, which he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are observed. So they do not drink {wine} to this day, for they have obeyed their father's command. But I have spoken to you again and again; yet you have not listened to Me
the contrast makes no sense if Judah was not capable of obedience. so was Judah capable of obedience? if not what is the meaning of jer 35?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/7/2008 7:50:50 PM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
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quote:
yes i was refering to romans 9
The Scripture promises, according to Romans 9, that it was given to those whom God had mercy upon, not according to man's will but according to his will.
quote:
no i am not arguing salvation at all but ability, freewill speaks to ability not salvation. did the israelites have the ability to obey? is that not what moses told them in this passage?
But my point was that you can't splice the two now that you've committed yourself. Whosoever will may come (Rev. 22:17), right? I don't deny this. But if you have the capability you have the desire, if you have the desire, you come and if you come then God granted the whole chain of events that led to your coming.
quote:
my question is did the israelites have an ability to obey God?
Not all of them, but these Israelites certainly did (though not all without exception i.e. Achan) and we see it proved out by their obedience.
quote:
the contrast makes no sense if Judah was not capable of obedience. so was Judah capable of obedience?
Did God lack the capability to overcome their resistance? Is he powerless to overcome it?
Was Judas capable of obedience even though Jesus said before he was betrayed that he must be betrayed in order to fulfill Scripture?
quote:
if not what is the meaning of jer 35?
To serve as a warning, to motivate those who would fear God to make their election sure.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/7/2008 9:40:38 PM
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justajerk
Posts: 129
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quote:
Hey Jaj,don't you get it ? God doesn't have the right to choose us first as scripture says he does? We through the power of our freewill must choose him first instead?
Otherwise,God wouldn't be God? Actually this action would make him God,just not the God that is able to choose us first,because God has to be fair to everybody? Is it to hard to understand that we must use our freewill to choose God before he chooses us back?
Well sun, you lost me. Could you ask this in a different way? I'm just not sure what it is your point is; for... or against.
_____________________________
"Men think all things would be very glorious, if they might be done according to their mind. Perhaps, indeed, they would -- but with their glory, not the glory of God." - John Owen
monergism
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/7/2008 10:47:31 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 551
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justajerk
quote:
Hey Jaj,don't you get it ? God doesn't have the right to choose us first as scripture says he does? We through the power of our freewill must choose him first instead?
Otherwise,God wouldn't be God? Actually this action would make him God,just not the God that is able to choose us first,because God has to be fair to everybody? Is it to hard to understand that we must use our freewill to choose God before he chooses us back?
Well sun, you lost me. Could you ask this in a different way? I'm just not sure what it is your point is; for... or against.
Sorry Jaj,my attempt at pointing out the irony of the argument of freewill.I'm trying to highlight the strength of the argument for freewill,as well as the credulousness of it at the same time.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/8/2008 3:21:11 AM
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babyjuic3
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my dear brothers and sisters...i am deeply greived at our constant debates...for some reason i find most of these debates as more deconstructive than constructive....after all...who are we trying to glorify in this??? we must keep our Kingdom mindset instead of trying to come to terms on an argument...not that there is anything wrong with standing for what you believe....but more importantly lets stand for WHO we believe and not what we believe...
we are free in Christ...and as long as u are abiding in Christ Jesus then u are free to serve God...and to serve others....there are no longer any human restrictions or law....lets do all things out of love dear brothers and sisters....please...for the sake of the Kingdom and our Lord Jesus the Christ......lets just love one another as Jesus loves us....
for sum reason i do not see y debating the issues of "limited atonement" or "God's sovereign will vs. free will" can effectively impact the lost people of this world.....becuz they dont even know what any of these things mean...lets just be a loving family....=D
- The Worst of All Sinners....Now Redeemed....
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/8/2008 4:03:57 AM
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justasheep
Posts: 44
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quote:
14 The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, which he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are observed. So they do not drink {wine} to this day, for they have obeyed their father's command. But I have spoken to you again and again; yet you have not listened to Me
quote:
the contrast makes no sense if Judah was not capable of obedience. so was Judah capable of obedience? if not what is the meaning of jer 35?
john_mark,
What was the law for anyways? I speak of law as all of the commands of God. If Israel had kept all of the commands because they were able to obey, then history would look very different. Maybe there would've been enough "believers" so that the death of Christ was unneccessary. So ... maybe God has revealed His will in one way and at the same time may have higher purposes or even a "secret will."  Please forgive me as I don't have my bible with me and am unable to find scripture to back this up, but I will find it as able. Help me guys!
Wasn't the law first and foremost given so that we would recognize our wretchedness and desperate need for a Savior? What if God never intended that man would live out the law without first being redeemed by the very Son of God? You see there is another way to look at your questions. Now I know that you might be scratching your head a little bit at this point, as did I. Let it ruminate for a while and then go to the scriptures.
Joseph and His brothers come to mind, "what you meant for evil, God meant for good."
Judas and his certain treachery, along with all of the events that lead to the crucifiction of Christ. We have repeatedly asked that you reconcile your thoughts about free will with these in particular. So I ask, just how free were Joseph's brothers? I'm not talking about determinism here, I'm talking about an absolute Holy and wise God who is sovereign.
Could Judas have turned back and repented prior to his treasonous act? Or was Judas only acting within his very nature and of course within the will of God himself? Scripture spells out the answer loud and clear in Acts and other places. So according to what you have repeatedly said and alluded to, God would have been unjust in foreordaining the most sinful act that has ever occurred. I'm not sure you can have it both ways. According to your theology God would be unloving and unjust to command that which he fully knew would never be able to be lived out. There is a remedy for all of this and it takes the form of "Open Theism" which I'm quite sure you abhor as do I. So once again I declare the cross wasn't plan B.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/8/2008 9:04:31 AM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
To serve as a warning, to motivate those who would fear God to make their election sure.
so you see human choice here. those who would fear God had the choice to make their election sure, or not sure. otherwise what is the purpose of the warning?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/8/2008 9:32:11 AM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justasheep
14 The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, which he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are observed. So they do not drink {wine} to this day, for they have obeyed their father's command. But I have spoken to you again and again; yet you have not listened to Me
the contrast makes no sense if Judah was not capable of obedience. so was Judah capable of obedience? if not what is the meaning of jer 35?
john_mark,
What was the law for anyways? I speak of law as all of the commands of God. If Israel had kept all of the commands because they were able to obey, then history would look very different. Maybe there would've been enough "believers" so that the death of Christ was unneccessary. So ... maybe God has revealed His will in one way and at the same time may have higher purposes or even a "secret will." Please forgive me as I don't have my bible with me and am unable to find scripture to back this up, but I will find it as able. Help me guys!
of course the law pointed out our sin, i have not argued that one can be sinless.
to the question that God's revealed will and His secert will can somehow be different. can these two wills of God be opposed to each other? for example can God reveal that it is His will to save sinners thru the sacrifice of His son and can God's secert will be in oppisition to that?
quote:
Could Judas have turned back and repented prior to his treasonous act? Or was Judas only acting within his very nature and of course within the will of God himself? Scripture spells out the answer loud and clear in Acts and other places. So according to what you have repeatedly said and alluded to, God would have been unjust in foreordaining the most sinful act that has ever occurred. I'm not sure you can have it both ways. According to your theology God would be unloving and unjust to command that which he fully knew would never be able to be lived out. There is a remedy for all of this and it takes the form of "Open Theism" which I'm quite sure you abhor as do I. So once again I declare the cross wasn't plan B.
or could God have simply foreknown all events, with God all things are possible. also remember that scripture is clear that satan enetered judas to accomplish the evil.
i am adding this edit to my response: if i havent made it clear i believe that GOd is soveriegn in His creation and man is free. by free I mean able to choose to the contrary. i hold this view because scripture teaches both. can i explain how that works, no. i live with the tension. sometimes when debating i will defend the position of man's freedom and it will seem as if i dont believe in GOd's soverienty. i dont classify myself within any specific systematic theology because i havent found one that resolves all issues, see my response below
your view would have God creating Adam with the purpose to sin, a nature inclined towards sin. so if adam was created for the purpose of sin, what does your theology teach happened in the fall to human nature?
< Message edited by john_mark -- 6/9/2008 7:08:04 AM >
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/8/2008 9:41:26 AM
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justajerk
Posts: 129
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: babyjuic3
my dear brothers and sisters...i am deeply greived at our constant debates...for some reason i find most of these debates as more deconstructive than constructive....after all...who are we trying to glorify in this??? we must keep our Kingdom mindset instead of trying to come to terms on an argument...not that there is anything wrong with standing for what you believe....but more importantly lets stand for WHO we believe and not what we believe...
we are free in Christ...and as long as u are abiding in Christ Jesus then u are free to serve God...and to serve others....there are no longer any human restrictions or law....lets do all things out of love dear brothers and sisters....please...for the sake of the Kingdom and our Lord Jesus the Christ......lets just love one another as Jesus loves us....
for sum reason i do not see y debating the issues of "limited atonement" or "God's sovereign will vs. free will" can effectively impact the lost people of this world.....becuz they dont even know what any of these things mean...lets just be a loving family....=D
- The Worst of All Sinners....Now Redeemed....
I can understand your point babyjuic3, and yet in looking at the teaching in the evangelical church as it is in America today; will have to disagree and say that we have a command to do this very thing, (in love, and with great patience to our fellow believers).
There is no desire to argue in a way that offends a brother or sister. The goal should be to help one another grow in understanding scriptural truth. And remember, not all who seek to grow in understanding are actively participating in these discussions by posting.
"Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints." - Jude 1:3
_____________________________
"Men think all things would be very glorious, if they might be done according to their mind. Perhaps, indeed, they would -- but with their glory, not the glory of God." - John Owen
monergism
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/8/2008 3:21:08 PM
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jbow
Posts: 774
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fortydays
If its Gods will how can we have free will? I hope this does not sound like a dum question.
Back to the OP, (after reading most of the thread).
I have been thinking a lot about this and as far as freewill this is what I believe. The fallen angels had freewill and the angels who did not leave their first estate still have freewill. Adam and Eve had freewill before they sinned. They chose something that resulted in death, both for themselves and for everyone else.
The thing is that the dead cannot choose anything. We were all stillborn spiritually. I have been told before that the unregenerate man is like a man floundering in deep water, going to drown and that Christ offers to save if only the man will accept but I no longer can accept this scenario. The truth is that an unregenerate man is floating facedown in the water, if not on the bottom... dead. Christ does not offer help, He make's alive what once was dead... this is the new birth, (without which no man can see the kingdom of God). How can a person believe in what he cannot even see? So, I believe that we are born again through the grace of God. By His sovereign will He act's sovereignly on one He chooses and that one becomes once again spiritually alive. Then, and only then, can one believe... using the faith that is also a gift of God. It is all the gift of God, given to those whom He chooses.
To us it may seem as if we realized we needed Christ and chose to receive Him but it is impossible for the dead to choose life. He receive's us. God chooses whom to save and Jesus made the way and give's the Spirit, give's life. There is nothing we can do to come to God without Him first coming to us and making us alive again.
As for the ultimate source of sin... God knew all things before anything happened. He knew that Lucifer's great beauty would be his downfall but God gave it to him anyway. God knew that Adam would eat the forbidden fruit and, in fact, placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil right in the middle of the garden and said... "Don't eat it". God knew that the serpent would come and lie to Eve but God made no mention of it to man.
I believe it is all a part of God's plan.
But my main point is this: the new birth come's before saving faith because the dead cannot have faith. God make's us alive again, we are able to see the kingdom, He give's us faith and we are able to believe. It surely seem's as if we realized the truth and chose it but that is not what happens if the Bible is true, (and it is).
Also, choosing obedience more and more does not make us sanctified. We are sanctified by grace, by God and as a result we, hopefully, choose more and more to walk in the Spirit rather than in the flesh. Once we are spiritually alive again we do have some ammount of freewill in our decision to walk either in the Spirit or in the flesh, ( because we are once again alive), but ultimately grace will work in us to do God's will, for He know's how to save!
I find much comfort in God's provision and work. I find much comfort in the grace of God.
J
< Message edited by jbow -- 6/8/2008 3:36:28 PM >
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/8/2008 4:57:01 PM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
so you see human choice here.
No, I see Divine choice here. I see a Spirit that indwells a soul that makes choices from there according to choices already made from above before time began.
quote:
those who would fear God had the choice to make their election sure, or not sure. otherwise what is the purpose of the warning?
Those who fear God have been given the capability to fear, therefore the capability to choose. The purpose of the warning is that while God knows who are his and who will remain faithful, we don't know. Thus faith. Faith is just as much the growing confidence that one is chosen as it is being mindful of the warnings that spur us on to make our election certain.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/9/2008 4:35:17 PM
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justasheep
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quote:
or could God have simply foreknown all events, with God all things are possible. also remember that scripture is clear that satan enetered judas to accomplish the evil.
john_mark
You see the problem with this don't you? How can man retain complete freedom in his choices if God has already forseen the events? I know you say that God is outside of time, but I'd like to assert; How can God remain sovereign while deferring to man's free will? Just when does God step in and regain His deity? We are debating over "free will" and yet it is nowhere to be found in scripture only implied through philosophical musings. Scripture speaks of a God who does as he pleases and who's will cannot be thwarted. No doubt we are speaking about mystery here, the tension found in scripture requires that we trust in God and believe that he is who he says he is. Even when it may not look as loving or as compassionate as we would like Him to be. The reality is that noone deserves the grace that He has freely bestowed on His children, we all deserve condemnation. In a very real way the cross was the ultimate act of injustice, and yet God has given us the light of the Gospel of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
What we really should be asking is what James so eloquently stated
14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.”
This message most certainly alludes to His secret will. And again
Matt 11:25-26
25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. [1]
Yes there is a secret will that we must defer to and ultimately trust in God's wisdom. While we revel in his revealed will we must recognize that God does indeed know the end from the beginning, and he will accomplish all his good purposes.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/9/2008 4:51:21 PM
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justasheep
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quote:
if i havent made it clear i believe that GOd is soveriegn in His creation and man is free. by free I mean able to choose to the contrary.
By contrary do you mean contrary to God's decretive will? I don't believe God is coercing us but that man in his natural state is only able to do that which he most desires, which for the unbeliever would necessarily be sinful and unbelieving. I believe in compatabilism, where man is responsible for his actions and God is perfectly sovereign and as you do, so do I live with this tension. I look foward to one day having this tension resolved when my dim lit glass becomes full with the knowledge of God in the face of Christ.
quote:
your view would have God creating Adam with the purpose to sin, a nature inclined towards sin. so if adam was created for the purpose of sin, what does your theology teach happened in the fall to human nature?
No Adam's will was probably freeer than anything since the fall but obviously God allowed for the opportunity of sin to enter the world. I cannot pretend to understand nor explain such mysteries. But I will say that since God allowed Sin he must have had his reasons. I would say in the simplest way that the cross of Christ must have held out greater glory for Christ than a world that would not have contained sin. All this to say that God's will and plans are not arbitrary, they are marvelous albeit at times a bit of a head scratcher  This is precisely where faith enters in. Faith in the God we can know and the God who is other.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/9/2008 5:43:15 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justasheep
We are debating over "free will" and yet it is nowhere to be found in scripture only implied through philosophical musings.
30:11
"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, ' Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
was moses wrong here?
jer 8:4
"You shall say to them, 'Thus says the LORD, "Do {men} fall and not get up again? Does one turn away and not repent?
8:5
"Why then has this people, Jerusalem, Turned away in continual apostasy? They hold fast to deceit, They refuse to return.
seems like God was asking why Judah has turned away and not returned. God's querry is based on verse 4 where it is established thru a rhetorical question that when men turn away they repent.
we have already talked about jer 35
quote:
Yes there is a secret will that we must defer to and ultimately trust in God's wisdom. While we revel in his revealed will we must recognize that God does indeed know the end from the beginning, and he will accomplish all his good purposes.
so i ask again can God's secret will oppose His declared will?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/9/2008 5:58:33 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justasheep
I don't believe God is coercing us but that man in his natural state is only able to do that which he most desires, which for the unbeliever would necessarily be sinful and unbelieving.
romans 7
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
was paul wrong here? seems he is saying that one can act contrary to their desires.
does a saved person act in accordance with their nature when they sin or contrary to their nature?
did adam act contrary to nature or in accordance with his nature when he sinned?
quote:
No Adam's will was probably freeer than anything since the fall but obviously God allowed for the opportunity of sin to enter the world. I cannot pretend to understand nor explain such mysteries. But I will say that since God allowed Sin he must have had his reasons. I would say in the simplest way that the cross of Christ must have held out greater glory for Christ than a world that would not have contained sin. All this to say that God's will and plans are not arbitrary, they are marvelous albeit at times a bit of a head scratcher This is precisely where faith enters in. Faith in the God we can know and the God who is other.
so did God foreknow adam's sin?
you wrote
You see the problem with this don't you? How can man retain complete freedom in his choices if God has already forseen the events? I know you say that God is outside of time, but I'd like to assert; How can God remain sovereign while deferring to man's free will? Just when does God step in and regain His deity?
so when we lok at adam's sin did God foreknow his sin? certainly He did but based on what you wrote here adam did not have freedom in his choice. so we are back to the question did God create adam for the purpose of sin?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/9/2008 8:38:34 PM
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justasheep
Posts: 44
Joined: 5/13/2008
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quote:
so i ask again can God's secret will oppose His declared will?
I want to begin by saying that in God, his will is unified, and not divided or contradictory, we cannot begin to understand the depths of his will, and only in small part as it is revealed to us. When I say revealed will I am referring to all that God has chosen to reveal through the revelation of scripture. His commandments, his exhortations, his warnings, his promises, all of it. When you say God is sovereign, you are only giving in to his sovereignty when man's will is not envolved. You see the problem don't you? Everytime we sin, God has allowed this sin. I shudder to think what this world would be like with out the restraining power of God himself towards sin. You of course would not give God such due. So I ask again so when does God retain his deity? Just a side note, declaritive will and secret will are the same thing, God's revealed will is God's will insofar as it is revealed in scripture. Another helpful word would be providence, as it also corresponds to God's secret will. We already brought the best example in scripture where it says that God was pleased to crush His son. Another might be Job 1: 8-12
8 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
We see all that I have discussed in this passage. There was great calamity and evil that God allowed satan to perpetuate. God even recommended Job as the ideal candidate All examples of God's secret will going against his revealed will, happens every day in our lives, if indeed we believe that God is sovereign.
_____________________________
Life is wasted if we do not grasp the glory of the cross, cheerish it for the treasure that it is, and cleave to it as the highest price of every pleasure and the deepest comfort of every pain.
John Piper
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/9/2008 8:56:54 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justasheep
I want to begin by saying that in God, his will is unified, and not divided or contradictory, we cannot begin to understand the depths of his will, and only in small part as it is revealed to us.
All examples of God's secret will going against his revealed will, happens every day in our lives, if indeed we believe that God is sovereign.
you start by saying that God's will is not divided or contradictory and closed by saying that God's secret will is opposed to His revealed will. these two statement contradict each other can you elaborate?
you also quoted the story of Job.
1:8
The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
this passage has to be compared to chapter 2
2:3
The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."
do you see what the LORD added, that satan incited God against him to ruin him. who instigated the evil here?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/10/2008 10:42:10 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 551
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John Chp 1 vs10-1210 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power F2 to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: The following commentary is from various authors concerning the verses in John chp 1.Two arguments are key to me here,and I'm offering these arguments for your consideration.
1.)Note the word world and it's usage has to carefully weighed,and balanced;That is the same word is used to describe the universe,a particular locale,ie Jesus physical presence and a specific people,ie.. the Jewish audience,although not inclusive of the entire Jewish nation.
2.)Note the order of Sonship in vs 12,as many as received him,ie.. believed in him,to them gave he the power to include the ability to become sons of God.
Now I'll pause the argument to show commentary concerning the verses in question:
v. 10. He was in the world, as the essential Word, before his incarnation, upholding all things; but this speaks of his being in the world when he took our nature upon him, and dwelt among us; see ch. 16:28. I am come into the world. The Son of the Highest was here in this lower world; that light in this dark world; that holy thing in this sinful polluted world.
"The world," in the first two clauses, plainly means the created world, into which He came, says John 1:9; "in it He was," says this verse. By His Incarnation, He became an inhabitant of it, and bound up with it. Yet it "was made by Him" (John 1:3-5). Here, then, it is merely alluded to, in contrast partly with His being in it, but still more with the reception He met with from it. "The world that knew Him not" (1 John 3:1) is of course the intelligent world of mankind.
And the world knew him not;
that is, the inhabitants of the world knew him not as their Creator: nor did they acknowledge the mercies they received from him; nor did they worship, serve, and obey him, or love and fear him; nor did they, the greater part of them, know him as the Messiah, Mediator, Saviour, and Redeemer. But as many--individuals, of the "disobedient and gainsaying people."
I think it should be clear here that the word world is not necessarily inclusive of all mankind,it can indeed be limited to a specific group of people,or at the very least does not by reason of it's implication include all,as not all Israel ie.. the world recognized him not.It was simply the greater part of Israel,i.e.. the world who did not.
Now for the second part of the argument,see commentary on vs 12:
The Father predestinated men to the adoption of children, secures this blessing for them in the covenant of his grace, and puts them among the children, and assigns them a goodly heritage: the Spirit, and who is therefore called the spirit of adoption, discovers and applies this blessing to them, and witnesses to their spirits that they are the children of God: and Christ, the word, or Son of God, not only espoused their persons, and in time assumed their nature, and by the redemption of them opened a way for their reception of the adoption of children; but actually bestows upon them the "power", as it is here called, of becoming the sons of God:
by which is meant, not a power of free will to make themselves the sons of God, if they will make use of it; but it signifies the honour and dignity conferred on such persons: so Nonnus calls it, "the heavenly honour"; as indeed, what can be a greater? It is more honourable than to be a son or daughter of the greatest potentate on earth: and it is expressive of its being a privilege; for so it is an undeserved and distinguishing one, and is attended with many other privileges; for such are of God's household and family, and are provided for by him; have liberty of access unto him; are Christ's free men, and are heirs to an incorruptible inheritance.
This is a privilege that excels all others, even justification and remission of sins; and is an everlasting one: and it also intends the open right which believers have unto this privilege, and their claim of it: hence it follows,
even to them that believe in his name;
that is, in himself, in Christ, the word: the phrase is explanative of the former part of the verse, and is a descriptive and manifestative character of the sons of God; for though the elect of God, by virtue of electing grace, and the covenant of grace, are the children of God before faith; and were so considered in the gift of them to Christ, and when he came into the world to gather them together, and save them; and so, antecedent to the Spirit of God, being sent down into their hearts, to make this known to them; yet no man can know his adoption, nor enjoy the comfort of it, or claim his interest in it, until he believes.
gave he power--The word signifies both authority and ability, and both are certainly meant here.
to become--Mark these words: Jesus is the Son of God; He is never said to have become such.
the sons--or more simply, "sons of God," in name and in nature.
believe on his name--a phrase never used in Scripture of any mere creature, to express the credit given to human testimony, even of prophets or apostles, inasmuch it carries with it the idea of trust proper only towards GOD. In this sense of supreme faith, as due to Him who "gives those that believe in Himself power to become sons of God," it is manifestly used here. The world that knew Him not" (1 John 3:1) is of course the intelligent world of mankind.
Next we will see how faith has to precede belief,so that it can not be said that belief is credited to human initiative:
He shows that the word preached is the ordinary means of working faith (v. 17): So then, ara — however; though many that hear do not believe, yet those that believe have first heard. Faith cometh by hearing. It is the summary of what he had said before, v. 14. The beginning, progress, and strength of faith, are by hearing. The word of God is therefore called the word of faith: it begets and nourishes faith. God gives faith, but it is by the word as the instrument. Hearing (that hearing which works faith) is by the word of God. It is not hearing the enticing words of man’s wisdom, but hearing the word of God, that will befriend faith, and hearing it as the word of God.
So where does faith come from? How does one get the faith that is necessary for belief?
17.So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God--"This is another confirmation of the truth that faith supposes the hearing of the Word, and this a commission to preach it."
So faith comes by hearing,and hearing by the word of God;But is this the singular means of faith.That is,does God use the spoken word,as preached by Preachers as the only agent of saving faith? Let us consider commentary of 1st Peter 3 vs1 ans 1st Corinthians 7 vs 16 as an alternative of God providing saving faith even if the preached word has failed to do so:
They also may without the word be won. That even those who have steeled themselves against the gospel and who refuse to listen to it may be quietly won by the sweet, Christian lives of their wives. 16. How knowest thou, O wife, etc. Let the Christian be gentle, forbearing, unselfish, though true to Christ, and perhaps the result will be that they will be God's means to save their partner. This has occurred in thousands of instances.
So here we have an example of saving faith coming not from the preached word of God,but rather the silent yet effective voiced of the lived word.The word put into practice which also produces saving faith.
There is one more example of saving faith being produced without the preached word here:
18. But I say, Have they not heard?--"Did they not hear?" Can Israel, through any region of his dispersion, plead ignorance of these glad tidings?
Yes, verily, their sound went--"their voice went out"
into all the earth, and their words unto the end of the world--These beautiful words are from Psalms 19:4. Whether the apostle quoted them as in their primary intention applicable to his subject (as OLSHAUSEN, ALFORD, &c.), or only "used scriptural language to express his own ideas, as is done involuntarily almost by every preacher in every sermon" [HODGE], expositors are not agreed.
Lord, who hath believed our report? 17. So, then, faith cometh by hearing. Hence the need of preaching. If God by a miracle wrought faith in the heart, he could dispense with the preacher. But the divine arrangement is that it should result from hearing the word of God preached. For an example of the gospel plan, see Acts 18:8. 18. Have they not heard? Who are alluded to? Both Jews and Gentiles. The objector might say, Well, if faith comes by hearing, so few have heard that we are not responsible for our unbelief. Nay, says the apostle, the opportunity to hear has been very widely extended. In the language of the Psalmist (19:4), Their sound (that of the preachers of the gospel) is gone out into all the earth. When the vast multitude converted on Pentecost were scattered to their homes, they carried the gospel into all parts of the civilized world. Paul was now writing to the church in Rome, where no apostle had ever been.
From the things that are seen every day by all the world the psalmist, in these verses, leads us to the consideration of the invisible things of God, whose being appears incontestably evident and whose glory shines transcendently bright in the visible heavens, the structure and beauty of them, and the order and influence of the heavenly bodies.
This instance of the divine power serves not only to show the folly of atheists, who see there is a heaven and yet say, "There is no God,’’ who see the effect and yet say, "There is no cause,’’ but to show the folly of idolaters also, and the vanity of their imagination, who, though the heavens declare the glory of God, yet gave that glory to the lights of heaven which those very lights directed them to give to God only, the Father of lights. Now observe here, 1. What that is which the creatures notify to us. They are in many ways useful and serviceable to us, but in nothing so much as in this, that they declare the glory of God, by showing his handy-works,
v. 1. They plainly speak themselves to be God’s handy-works; for they could not exist from eternity; all succession and motion must have had a beginning; they could not make themselves, that is a contradiction; they could not be produced by a casual hit of atoms, that is an absurdity, fit rather to be bantered than reasoned with: therefore they must have a Creator, who can be no other than an eternal mind, infinitely wise, powerful, and good. Thus it appears they are God’s works, the works of his fingers (Ps. 8:3), and therefore they declare his glory
The constant and regular succession of day and night (v. 2): Day unto day, and night unto night, speak the glory of that God
His universal influence on this earth: There is nothing hidden from the heart thereof, no, not metals in the bowels of the earth, which the sun has an influence upon. III. To whom this declaration is made of the glory of God. It is made to all parts of the world (v. 3, 4): There is no speech nor language (no nation, for the nations were divided after their tongues, Gen. 10:31, 32) where their voice is not heard. Their line has gone through all the earth (the equinoctial line, suppose) and with it their words to the end of the world, proclaiming the eternal power of God of nature,
v. 4. The apostle uses this as a reason why the Jews should not be angry with him and others for preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, because God had already made himself known to the Gentile world by the works of creation, and left not himself without witness among them (Rom. 10:18)
Here we have an example of Gods creation preaching the word in absence and in conjunction with the called Preacher,so that it can be said that the word of God has been preached throughout all the earth,leaving no excuse for any not to have faith in God,even in absence of the preached word.
So I said all of this to offer a viewpoint that Salvation is of Gods doing and his initiative.He alone is the author and finisher of our faith.Faith simply put is a gift from God,a gift extended in a general sense.So that no man can say that he has not had the invitation.
But to those who do respond to the invitation can accept no credit for having done so.In the end we are left with the fact that God chooses those that are his,not the other way around.
We have not chosen him,but he has chosen us.(John 15vs16,19,Matthew 22 vs14,1st peter 2 vs 9)
< Message edited by sunofone -- 6/10/2008 1:20:38 PM >
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/10/2008 2:02:58 PM
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justasheep
Posts: 44
Joined: 5/13/2008
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quote:
you start by saying that God's will is not divided or contradictory and closed by saying that God's secret will is opposed to His revealed will. these two statement contradict each other can you elaborate?
I should have qualified the end of my comment, I appologize. From God's perspective there is no division in his will, it is completely unified. He sees the beginning from the end. But what I really want to say is that there are times when God's providence superseeds his revealed will. These are the secret things of God, which include all the events of history that God has ordained to come about, for example that Christ would be crushed by lawless men. (Acts 2:23)
23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Again here we find a tension that exists in scripture. I often go back to
Romans 11:33-36
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
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Life is wasted if we do not grasp the glory of the cross, cheerish it for the treasure that it is, and cleave to it as the highest price of every pleasure and the deepest comfort of every pain.
John Piper
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/10/2008 2:08:21 PM
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justasheep
Posts: 44
Joined: 5/13/2008
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quote:
do you see what the LORD added, that satan incited God against him to ruin him. who instigated the evil here?
No doubt Satan instigated all evil here, he is fully culpable as he is the father of lies. The problem is that Satan had to ask permission from God to do as such. Do you really think this is a tug of war between satan's will to do evil and God's to do good? I see God really setting the table to show that He is sovereign and that Job would indeed trust him. This is a wonderful example of the theology of suffering. God doesn't want to be let off the hook here, even as you are trying your best to rescue him. Even Job who was righteous in his suffering understood that God is sovereign in all things, even those things that are most undesireable.
21 And he said, “Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”
< Message edited by justasheep -- 6/10/2008 2:25:10 PM >
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Life is wasted if we do not grasp the glory of the cross, cheerish it for the treasure that it is, and cleave to it as the highest price of every pleasure and the deepest comfort of every pain.
John Piper
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/10/2008 4:09:41 PM
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Unityin3
Posts: 1
Joined: 6/10/2008
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I've been following this thread and it has prompted me to sign up. It addresses a topic which every Christian encounters and is therefore very relevant.
Here are my contributions:
Its up to God, its up to my fellow men, its up to me.
God is sovereign. However in His sovereignty, He leaves room for us to exercise our human will. He also leaves room for other people to exercise their will in our favour.
He came and died for us as the Son to ensure that His will that all be saved can become a reality. He raised missionaries who share the same will to bring the news to us and finally he appeals to us through the Holy Spirit to yield to His love. All that does not remove our right to say "No, thank you!"
He chose to give us free will, He honors it!
God has done his part, there are some people around us and far away that God instructs us to share His word with, the reality is that if we do not carry the word to them they may never know- it is up to us. When we have told them about the love of God, there are still some that will consider the pleasures of sin too great a sacrifice. Like the wife of Lot - God did | | |
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