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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/31/2008 12:16:55 AM
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RevMick
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The difference between God's will and free will is those who are not living for God are doing their own free will and would rather do what they want to do even if it is an offense to God. Simply they are not ready for the truth yet and may never be ready. When the repercussions for those choices comes around some of those people try to blame God for not saving them from themselves when all they have to do is be open to the truth. Instead these people would rather not accept responsibility for their own actions saying that God has cut them off, not letting good things happen to them. God has created each of us with the ability to make our own decisions.
_____________________________
"For God did not send His Son in the the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." John 3:17 HCSB
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/31/2008 4:02:31 AM
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justasheep
Posts: 44
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quote:
The difference between God's will and free will is those who are not living for God are doing their own free will and would rather do what they want to do even if it is an offense to God.
Rev
I'm not sure you understand the complexity of the original question. The debate over "free will" has raged since the 5th century and was one of the focal points of the reformation. Luther's classic work "Bondage of the Will" and Edwards' "Freedom of the Will" are the best and most well known refutations of "free will." Some of us contend that free will is not as it seems and is certainly not what the majority of today's evangelical world understands it to be.
Scripture says that we are dead in our trespasses in our original spiritual state, it explictly says that there is none righteous and all have fallen short of the glory of God. And since dead people cannot freely choose anything that is in faith and pleasing to God, they must be born again as described in John 3. So our will isn't free to choose that which pleases God until the will has been radically changed - changing the heart of stone to a heart of flesh. We contend that regeneration preceeds even faith, because without regeneration there is no faith in Christ and thus our will continues to be in bondage to it's original condition. It is literally God who breaths life and even faith into the unbeliever so that he/she can begin to place their trust in the finished work of Christ.
What say you?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/31/2008 1:09:33 PM
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RevMick
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justasheep,
Do you subscribe to the doctrine of predestination? The problem I have with the theory that it was predetermined who was saved and who wasn't before your existence is that it argues against the reason the Bible says the Son of God walked the earth.
Now, it is true that it takes the action of the Holy Spirit for you to recognize the will of God and to be convicted of your sins through God's Law. However, I have seen for myself people that are shown their sin and have admitted that they are wrong and are sinners by God's Law but still of their own free will have turned their back on the Almighty God and continued their sinful ways. It was obvious that the Holy Spirit had convicted them of their sins in their heart and they acknowledged that but admitted that they rather continue in their current path because it was 'more fun'.
If 'unconditional election' where to be true then why bother sending out missionaries to the un-churched, the un-saved? Call all the missionaries home, their efforts are futile. Oh yeah, that ministry that Jesus was preaching?, it was only for the few not the whole world as HE said it was.
_____________________________
"For God did not send His Son in the the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." John 3:17 HCSB
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/31/2008 3:20:36 PM
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justajerk
Posts: 129
Joined: 4/30/2008
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Hi Rev,
quote:
Do you subscribe to the doctrine of predestination?
If JaS is of the reformed persuasion, then I would assume a big yes. (Correct me if I'm wrong JaS)
quote:
I have with the theory that it was predetermined who was saved and who wasn't before your existence is that it argues against the reason the Bible says the Son of God walked the earth.
So why did the Son of God walk the earth?
"For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world..."
Jesus is speaking to Pontius Pilate here, so what was the reason he gave?
"... to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice." - John 18:37
He was speaking to Pilate. So if, as you might say Jesus came into the world to save every sinner, and all they have to do is choose; why did'nt Pilate believe? Wasn't he listening? They were having a direct conversation (Pilate with God incarnate!), and Pilate even responded by asking what is truth? But obviously he wasn't who Jesus was speaking of or he would have heard would he not? (Those who have ears to hear, or those "of the truth")
quote:
However, I have seen for myself people that are shown their sin and have admitted that they are wrong and are sinners by God's Law but still of their own free will have turned their back on the Almighty God and continued their sinful ways. It was obvious that the Holy Spirit had convicted them of their sins in their heart and they acknowledged that but admitted that they rather continue in their current path because it was 'more fun'.
Are you familiar with 'Effectual Calling'; Obviously they loved the darkness (they loved their sin), rather than the light. We all know people like this. There is nothing new here, they are acting out of their very nature, which is to reject the truth as they are enemies of God; as we all were before His voice broke through our deaf ears.
"But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. - John 6:64-66 (emphasis mine)
This example you've given is not the conviction that leads to repentance. There is remorse, but not repentance. There are many who turn away, but those who are of the truth, who have recieved a new heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone, are truly convicted and will not turn away... why? Because they know the truth, they are His sheep and hear His voice.
quote:
If 'unconditional election' where to be true then why bother sending out missionaries to the un-churched, the un-saved? Call all the missionaries home, their efforts are futile. Oh yeah, that ministry that Jesus was preaching?, it was only for the few not the whole world as HE said it was.
This is a faulty argument; as the same God who tell's us that no man can come unless drawn by the Father also commands us to go out and preach the good news. God uses means to accomplish His purposes. And unless you know who it is that will be chosen, we will preach the gospel to all men, and let God draw those whom He will. I have no problem with this, as it takes all the pressure off me to 'get them to say the prayer or sign the card'. His word will not return void, it is effectual in either drawing or condemning.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/1/2008 3:22:20 PM
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Butterflytearz
Posts: 142
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Isaiah 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose [that] wherein I delighted not.
Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.
Now who is the one in which God delighted in,, who was worthy to be the lamb of salvation?
We can choose Christ or reject him,,, God calls all but few are chosen, we are sprinled with blood and washed clean by our faith.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/2/2008 12:24:58 AM
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justajerk
Posts: 129
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Butterflytearz,
quote:
We can choose Christ or reject him,,,
There is no scriptural backing for this. Unregenerate man is incapable of 'choosing' God without the Father drawing him first (changing the heart of stone to a heart of flesh, breathing life into an otherwise spiritually dead corpse).
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..." - John 6:44
Yes, prior to salvation we sin, rejecting God (in fact that is all we do as we have no faith and you know that whatever is not from faith is sin)... but that is doing nothing more than what we naturally do outside of the Holy Spirit crashing into our lives. We are naturally enemies of God; how could we not reject Him? Oh! "But God..." (Ephesians 2:4) He gets the glory and praise!
quote:
God calls all but few are chosen...
Exactly! The general call is put out to all, we preach to all men. But God will draw (or choose) those whom He will. In fact He has a book with their names in it already, from before the foundation of the world.
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." - Acts 13:48 (emphasis mine)
< Message edited by justajerk -- 6/2/2008 8:47:58 AM >
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/2/2008 12:46:26 PM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
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quote:
The difference between God's will and free will is those who are not living for God are doing their own free will and would rather do what they want to do even if it is an offense to God. Simply they are not ready for the truth yet and may never be ready.
The spiritually dead have no worry of this. They are made ready by God's intervention, not on account of some works based preparation to receive the truth.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/2/2008 12:51:05 PM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
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quote:
Now, it is true that it takes the action of the Holy Spirit for you to recognize the will of God and to be convicted of your sins through God's Law. However, I have seen for myself people that are shown their sin and have admitted that they are wrong and are sinners by God's Law but still of their own free will have turned their back on the Almighty God and continued their sinful ways.
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. - 1 John 3:9
One who remains in their sin was never born of God and this example you've put forward only shows how enslaving sin is, not that one has the power to choose against something they lack the power to overcome.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/2/2008 3:48:58 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1686
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From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
Now, it is true that it takes the action of the Holy Spirit for you to recognize the will of God and to be convicted of your sins through God's Law. However, I have seen for myself people that are shown their sin and have admitted that they are wrong and are sinners by God's Law but still of their own free will have turned their back on the Almighty God and continued their sinful ways.
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. - 1 John 3:9
One who remains in their sin was never born of God and this example you've put forward only shows how enslaving sin is, not that one has the power to choose against something they lack the power to overcome.
Amen!
_____________________________
“To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect.” - John Owen
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/3/2008 9:30:21 AM
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justajerk
Posts: 129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Butterflytearz
Isaiah 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose [that] wherein I delighted not.
Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.
Now who is the one in which God delighted in,, who was worthy to be the lamb of salvation?
In re-reading this I am not sure of your question, and therefore may not have answered you as fully as you may have liked. The plain answer would be none of these that God is speaking to in the verses you presented.
In reading Isaiah 65 it is interesting who it is that God is delighted in:
8 This is what the LORD says:
"As when juice is still found in a cluster of grapes
and men say, 'Don't destroy it,
there is yet some good in it,'
so will I do in behalf of my servants;
I will not destroy them all.
9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
and from Judah those who will possess my mountains;
my chosen people will inherit them,
and there will my servants live.
10 Sharon will become a pasture for flocks,
and the Valley of Achor a resting place for herds,
for my people who seek me.
11 "But as for you who forsake the LORD
and forget my holy mountain,
who spread a table for Fortune
and fill bowls of mixed wine for Destiny,
12 I will destine you for the sword,
and you will all bend down for the slaughter;
for I called but you did not answer,
I spoke but you did not listen.
You did evil in my sight
and chose what displeases me."
13 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"My servants will eat,
but you will go hungry;
my servants will drink,
but you will go thirsty;
my servants will rejoice,
but you will be put to shame.
14 My servants will sing
out of the joy of their hearts,
but you will cry out
from anguish of heart
and wail in brokenness of spirit.
15 You will leave your name
to my chosen ones as a curse;
the Sovereign LORD will put you to death,
but to his servants he will give another name. (emphasis mine)
It is all about our Sovereign Lord (vs. 13,15), and His choosing.
< Message edited by justajerk -- 6/3/2008 12:43:49 PM >
_____________________________
"Men think all things would be very glorious, if they might be done according to their mind. Perhaps, indeed, they would -- but with their glory, not the glory of God." - John Owen
monergism
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/3/2008 7:32:27 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justasheep
Scripture says that we are dead in our trespasses in our original spiritual state, it explictly says that there is none righteous and all have fallen short of the glory of God. And since dead people cannot freely choose anything that is in faith and pleasing to God, they must be born again as described in John 3.
may iask you to comment on the conversion of cornelius found in acts 10 and 11
1 Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, "Cornelius!" 4 And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, "What is it, Lord?" And he said to him, "Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God
it seems that cornelius did something pleasing to God. the question is did he do this before regeneration or after? if as you contend he could not do this before he was born again why does scripture tell us that he was not saved until peter came and preached to him
acts 11
13 "And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, `Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household
if cornelius was regenerated/born again proir to offering acceptable prayers to God, why was it neccessary for him to be saved again by peter's preaching?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/3/2008 10:39:06 PM
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justasheep
Posts: 44
Joined: 5/13/2008
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quote:
it seems that cornelius did something pleasing to God. the question is did he do this before regeneration or after? if as you contend he could not do this before he was born again why does scripture tell us that he was not saved until peter came and preached to him
John_Mark
I appreciate you bringing up this passage. I don't think the emphasis is on God's timing in salvation but rather that the Gospel would be preached to all peoples both Jew and Gentile. It is a marvelous example of God creating amazing circumstances to bring Peter and Cornelius together to bring the Gospel to bare.
But your question still stands. Just as you say we know from Acts 11:18
18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” So apparently it was God who granted repentance thus leading Cornelius and His houshold to life. But what is clear that the while Cornelius had some sort of Fear of God and was seeking him, he still needed the Gospel so that he could be granted repentance that would lead to life. I cannot pretend to know the order of such events, but what is clear is that God was indeed drawing Cornelius to himself. How peculiar that a Gentile Centurian would be seeking God in prayer, and that same individual would be visited by an Angel to give him further guidance. I think this passage shows very clearly that God is drawing, wooing, and providentially creating the events that would forever change the world.
You certainly know that this was the beginning of evangelization to the whole world (both Jew and Gentile). Again I would emphasize from the text is that in every nation—that is, every ethnic people group around the world (v. 35)—there are people being prepared by God to seek him with acceptable prayer. This should fill us with wonder and hope that God is doing a work all over the world.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/4/2008 4:45:20 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justasheep
So apparently it was God who granted repentance thus leading Cornelius and His houshold to life. But what is clear that the while Cornelius had some sort of Fear of God and was seeking him, he still needed the Gospel so that he could be granted repentance that would lead to life. I cannot pretend to know the order of such events, but what is clear is that God was indeed drawing Cornelius to himself. How peculiar that a Gentile Centurian would be seeking God in prayer, and that same individual would be visited by an Angel to give him further guidance. I think this passage shows very clearly that God is drawing, wooing, and providentially creating the events that would forever change the world.
i appericate the honesty of your response and i am in agreement with what you wrote here.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/5/2008 11:17:28 PM
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RevMick
Posts: 12
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Justa,
first I am not sure what you mean by JaS.
For your effectual calling to be true then Jesus' parable of the lost sheep would have to be changed because we have 99 present and that one that is lost is destined to be lost so why go look for it.
1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. If the Bible says all men then it means all men not just a few.
2 Peter 3:9 likewise says that God does not want anyone to die, he wants all to come to repentance.
In my opinion predestination, effectual calling, what ever you call it is actually a way to attribute a man's domineering type of rule to God. Which does a disservice to God. To say that God has predetermined some to heaven and some to hell is to say that God has an evil side and that is just not so. Man does not want to take the responsibility for his actions that lead to evil so it is easier to say that God has just willed it that way so man does not have to acknowledge his role in turning his back on God.
_____________________________
"For God did not send His Son in the the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." John 3:17 HCSB
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/6/2008 2:19:34 AM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. If the Bible says all men then it means all men not just a few.
2 Peter 3:9 likewise says that God does not want anyone to die, he wants all to come to repentance.
Since the Scriptures, in no less than a dozen places, states that God does whatever he pleases and his plans are not thwarted, how is it then that God's omnipotence is undone by the citation of these two passages and the exegesis you've built around them?
quote:
In my opinion predestination, effectual calling, what ever you call it is actually a way to attribute a man's domineering type of rule to God. Which does a disservice to God.
You opinion is acknowledged, though not embraced. Here is my conflicting opinion, as shared by JaS and JaJ and others here, that would introduce a contradiction between us if not resolved: Free will is a sly way of being told that you can be your own god on account that the power of the cross is not effective until you make it effective by your choice. Thus the work and righteousness that brings the cross to the sinner would begin first with the sinner's permission and not with God.
quote:
To say that God has predetermined some to heaven and some to hell is to say that God has an evil side and that is just not so.
To say that God predetermined, or chose in ages past before the world, souls to be saved in no way changes either his immutable righteousness or our duty to obey his commands.
That God would preside over his creation as he sees fit in no way makes him evil, just as it is impossible for God to be a thing that he is not. "God is light, in him there is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5)
Rev, did God predetermine, that is did he plan the death of his Son?
quote:
Man does not want to take the responsibility for his actions that lead to evil so it is easier to say that God has just willed it that way so man does not have to acknowledge his role in turning his back on God.
Man has no ability to even see his actions as purely evil unless God would grant him sight of it.
The man you describe in your example is an argument already undertaken by atheists, agnostics and scornful skeptics and only proves the Scriptures point that man is incapable of choosing God in his own power.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/6/2008 12:42:08 PM
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justajerk
Posts: 129
Joined: 4/30/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RevMick
Justa,
first I am not sure what you mean by JaS.
For your effectual calling to be true then Jesus' parable of the lost sheep would have to be changed because we have 99 present and that one that is lost is destined to be lost so why go look for it.
No... There are 99 present so you go look for the one thats missing. There are lots of critters out there, but you're only looking for His lost sheep. (remember, "you are not of my flock"?). But we don't know who that may be, so we put the word out to all. The good thing is, we can rest assured that this lost sheep will be found.
quote:
1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. If the Bible says all men then it means all men not just a few.
2 Peter 3:9 likewise says that God does not want anyone to die, he wants all to come to repentance.
So what happened in the discussion between Jesus and Pilate in the text from John 18? Was Jesus a really bad evangelist? He knew that the discussion with Pilate was not for Pilates sake as it was only for those "who are of the truth". Pilate even asked Jesus to tell him "what is truth?". If Jesus desired for Pilate to be saved, He had a great opportunity right there.
quote:
In my opinion predestination, effectual calling, what ever you call it is actually a way to attribute a man's domineering type of rule to God. Which does a disservice to God. To say that God has predetermined some to heaven and some to hell is to say that God has an evil side and that is just not so. Man does not want to take the responsibility for his actions that lead to evil so it is easier to say that God has just willed it that way so man does not have to acknowledge his role in turning his back on God.
I believe Conquered answered this very well.
< Message edited by justajerk -- 6/6/2008 1:40:48 PM >
_____________________________
"Men think all things would be very glorious, if they might be done according to their mind. Perhaps, indeed, they would -- but with their glory, not the glory of God." - John Owen
monergism
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/6/2008 6:35:02 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
The man you describe in your example is an argument already undertaken by atheists, agnostics and scornful skeptics and only proves the Scriptures point that man is incapable of choosing God in his own power.
how would you apply this thought that man is incapable of choosing God in his own power to the israelites. scripture seems to demonstrate that they had the ability to choose God or reject Him. israel lack for nothing from God yet they rejected Him.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/6/2008 8:38:39 PM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
how would you apply this thought that man is incapable of choosing God in his own power to the israelites. scripture seems to demonstrate that they had the ability to choose God or reject Him. israel lack for nothing from God yet they rejected Him.
I defer to what Paul wrote in Scripture....
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. 6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. -Romans 9:5-9
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/6/2008 9:15:41 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
how would you apply this thought that man is incapable of choosing God in his own power to the israelites. scripture seems to demonstrate that they had the ability to choose God or reject Him. israel lack for nothing from God yet they rejected Him.
I defer to what Paul wrote in Scripture....
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. 6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. -Romans 9:5-9
okay, i guess iam missing something. these children of the promise, these sons of abraham spoken of in the passage you cited are the ones who rejected God. they were able to choose or reject God
romans 11
11:17
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
these who are part of the natural root that saved gentiles get grafted into rejected God. the children of the promise, rejected God
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/6/2008 11:21:07 PM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
okay, i guess iam missing something. these children of the promise, these sons of abraham spoken of in the passage you cited are the ones who rejected God. they were able to choose or reject God
Yes, you are missing something, dear sir, something terribly profound. They were not able to "choose or reject God" in their natural selves, they were only able to reject God. This passage says nothing about freely choosing anything, let alone choosing in a natural condition.
quote:
these who are part of the natural root that saved gentiles get grafted into rejected God. the children of the promise, rejected God
Yes, they absolutely did reject him, and they acted freely insofar as they were capable to act. Like a fish that can only swim and move in water, they rejected God in their natural habitat. Like the fish out of water, natural men suffocate outside of their natural environment.
Unless the Holy Spirit breaks a man's resistance he will, by a nature he is hopelessly enslaved to, always resist God.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/7/2008 7:55:46 AM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
Yes, you are missing something, dear sir, something terribly profound. They were not able to "choose or reject God" in their natural selves, they were only able to reject God. This passage says nothing about freely choosing anything, let alone choosing in a natural condition.
and yet scripture promised to children spoken of in romans 7
dt 30
11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, ' Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
i wont post jeremiah 35 because the whole chapter has to read, but the story of the rechabites makes no sense if those to whom jeremiah spoke did not have the ability to obey. these are two passages that speak to the ability of the children of the promise to obey, the passage in romans tells of their ability to reject. to posses the ability to obey and the ability to reject = freewill
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/7/2008 10:31:54 AM
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jessiebadillo
Posts: 15
Joined: 6/7/2008
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It is free will but since God is outside of time He knows the beginning up to the end.
prior to His creation of the earth He already know those who will call and believe in His name that is why He predistined us. For us it is free will because we are inside time; we dont know what future lies ahead but God knows who are His that is why He even write in advance in the book of life even before the creation of the world, our names. 
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/7/2008 4:09:13 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 551
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justajerk
quote:
ORIGINAL: jessiebadillo
It is free will but since God is outside of time He knows the beginning up to the end.
prior to His creation of the earth He already know those who will call and believe in His name that is why He predistined us. For us it is free will because we are inside time; we dont know what future lies ahead but God knows who are His that is why He even write in advance in the book of life even before the creation of the world, our names.
Hi Jessie,
Gods foreknowledge is not in regards to an action we take, but in the knowing of His elect in an intimate sense. Free will is at odds with the spiritual condition of unregenerate man. Try asking a corpse to get up and walk... In the same way - man is dead in His trespasses and unable to 'choose' anything other than sin. He is a slave to sin and therefore is only able to do sin.
Where does choosing God come into the picture here?
With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. God regenerates the soul giving the dead "new life" and thus enabling the individual to see and choose that which is righteous and good.
Hey Jaj,don't you get it ? God doesn't have the right to choose us first as scripture says he does? We through the power of our freewill must choose him first instead?
Otherwise,God wouldn't be God? Actually this action would make him God,just not the God that is able to choose us first,because God has to be fair to everybody? Is it to hard to understand that we must use our freewill to choose God before he chooses us back?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/7/2008 5:13:44 PM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
and yet scripture promised to children spoken of in romans 7
I don't know what this is supposed to mean. Do you mean Romans 9 instead?
quote:
dt 30
11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, ' Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
1. Again, was every descendant of Israel saved without exception? Paul says, not at all for not all Israel is Israel. Are you arguing that the wicked that descended from Abraham that perished in the desert, and well after, were saved?
2. Are you a Jew, john mark? I see no promise for the Chaldean, the Assryian, the Egyptian or Ethopian here? Where is the ability for members of all other nations to obey God's call? Where is the promise that is made to them, where is the convenant between them and God?
If there is no revelation made to them, how did they see enough to freely choose?
quote:
i wont post jeremiah 35 because the whole chapter has to read, but the story of the rechabites makes no sense if those to whom jeremiah spoke did not have the ability to obey. these are two passages that speak to the ability of the children of the promise to obey, the passage in romans tells of their ability to reject. to posses the ability to obey and the ability to reject = freewill
If anyone has the ability to obey it is granted first by God. The passage only makes sense if God had already previously granted, even many years prior, the capability for the Rechabites to obey. He certainly foreknew their response and therefore he planned how they would respond to Jeremiah.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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