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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/21/2008 9:58:15 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 551
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quote:
Why don't you put that verse back in the passage it was in, and see if you still see the same thing. Romans 2 was talking about Gods righteous judgment, and the fact that some were judging others, why don't we look at verse 8
8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
To reject the truth we would have to make a choice regarding it, and exercise our free will to reject it. Right or wrong?
Call me silly,but I was actually interested in having a genuine discourse concerning the two topics I addressed.My hope as always is to find the middle ground if possible.
When I look at the world,putting the church aside for a second. I see how we separate into camps if you will.Politically and otherwise, we each tend to hold to views that seem right to us.
I to like you and anyone else have things that I believe to be true;however I at least attempt to see things from a different perspective.My involvement in this thread is not to win or convince anyone that my position is superior,rather I lay it out here for inspection.
Perhaps what I say is flawed and can be shown to be just that.On the other hand, Just maybe there is truth in what I see.One thing I don't think I'm guilty of is intentionally loading the deck in my favor,while ignoring or dismissing scriptures that point to a different conclusion.
In the end I'm willing to do what even the best of attorneys must,and that is rest my case.Not to suggest that I am an attorney to begin with. I don't have a issue with dissenting views and opinions,as much as I take issue or easily grow weary of dishonest discourse.
I know that you realize that I posted a lot of information in my post.I don't expect you to necessarily address my entire post point by point,but I think it is hardly fair to isolate one verse you feel was used out of context,and then dismiss the whole of it entirely.
I have never said that man has no will,or is incapable of making choices.I simply disagree that man has a will that can be considered free from the restrictions of God.
My will as well as any is restricted to the parameters God has ordained.God has shown on many occasions that he routinely affects our will to suit his purpose.In the case of salvation it is in our favor.
Here is the bottom line concerning God and our will.God has declared that all are under the penalty of sin by reason or consequence of our choice made through or by Adam.
The sentence of death and eternal separation has been placed on us all.The story could end right there,but it doesn't.It doesn't end there because God in his will decided that it wouldn't.
It was God's initiative to offer an escape.In fact it had to be his initiative,because we could do nothing otherwise to effect the outcome.To say that God can not choose to elect some,rather then punishing all. Is a case that I am not prepared to take against him.
It is not for me to say,suggest and most certainly not tell or demand that God do what I feel is right or fair. I trust that God is who and what he says he is.He says he is good and righteous and just,and I believe him.
I don't need to attempt to fix,or tidy up the facts to exonerate God and his character.His character and honor is not on trial.God can do what he wants to,and in doing so I can rest assured that it will be just.
Free will for most is the concept held on to,so that God is in no way implicated for our demise. I don't need free will in order to clear God of my demise.
If God raised me up to show me that only he is Holy, that would be his choice,his prerogative. That being said,I believe God has created man for a much more noble position.
That is another topic of it's own however.I think I've said enough for now. I rest my case.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 1:16:22 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1784
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quote:
It was God's initiative to offer an escape.In fact it had to be his initiative,because we could do nothing otherwise to effect the outcome.To say that God can not choose to elect some,rather then punishing all. Is a case that I am not prepared to take against him.
.... I rest my case.
sunofone:
I agree that salvation is all of God. However...
You believe you have rested your case on the assumption that God elects some to Heaven and others to Hell. That case remains to be proved.
Nowhere will you find that election and predestination are connected with choosing sinners for Heaven or Hell. Rather they are closely connected with choosing believers for eternal privileges above and beyond deliverance from Hell.
Unless you can actually provide Scriptures which plainly teach what you have assumed, your case rests on a a shaky foundation.
On the other hand, Scripture gloriously declares that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. While this Scripture has been given all kinds of strange and weird interpretations to avoid the plain truth, this one Scripture alone destroys your position.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 1:41:40 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
To argue that when God prophesies, states, and intends that someone do a particular thing, that the person is still at liberty because of his supposed free will, to not do what God has said, is absurdity on the highest level. Yet this IS what the theory of free will demands.
This would appear to be the heart of your argument, but it is merely a rationalization of something which you cannot comprehend. From your limited human perspective it is "absurd" to believe that while God is omniscient, He can and does give men free choice.
But there is nothing really absurd about this at all. God created man in His own image and likeness, and even after the Fall, mankind retains a conscience and free will to believe God without coercion. If it was any other way, it would be inconsistent with the character of God. That is the whole point of the Gospel. So what you are saying is that the preaching of the Gospel to sinners is absurd. I wonder if Christ would agree.
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The fact that God has a foreknowledge of everything proves that free will is an impossibility, as true free will could alter the future and therefore God could not have an absolute and true knowledge of the future.
First of all, with God nothing is impossible, and all things are possible. So let's rule out all talk about "impossibility". Secondly, God knows every free choice in advance, and even reversals of free choices. That does not mean He predetermines those choices. He just foreknows them in His Divine omniscience. He knows the end from the beginning.
quote:
It is idiocy to state that man has a free will that is not made or caused to do as it does, and yet state that God knows in advance the only possible choice that a person must make.
Unless you have Scripture to back up this observation, it is simply a rant against freewill. Yet you make free choices daily (many of which are not in your best interest). If God were the Cosmic Puppetmaster, you might have a case. But, thank God, He is above and beyond puppetry.
There are certain things which God has indeed predetermined, and no matter what anyone does or does not do, they will come to pass. But the one thing He has not predetermined is that some will go to Heaven while others go to Hell. That is a matter that hinges on whether or not a sinner believes the Gospel and repents. Meditate on Mark 16:15,16.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 2:02:16 AM
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atruefaith
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quote:
Yet you do say that there is a number, and I say that there isn't. Yes He will tell some to depart. The ones who chose not to believe in the only begotten Son of God, and they chose out of their own free will to do so. It is not because they were never meant to, because they weren't predestined to.
Where is the verse that proves that man chooses out of his own free will? You see you have to sweep away verses that talk plainly about the elect and predestination and God choosing, and yet you provide no biblical support for your view.
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You see, this is exactly my point. You are saying, you not me, are saying that Gods love is only for His chosen. There is no love for anyone who He did not choose ahead of time. This is what YOU ARE SAYING, not me. I say He loves all mankind, and gives us all an opportunity to receive His offer of salvation through belief in Jesus Christ.
No. I am saying that God does not unconditionally love the damned.
And how can he if he sends them to hell, even if according to your view, he knew their "free choice" when he was perfectly able to stop it? Again, if I have only limited knowledge going into a choice and a limited will based on that limited knowledge, how exactly is God "off the hook" if he has an unlimited will and unlimited power?
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Does that answer my question. Do you believe His grace runs out at the last person He chose ahead of time, or not. This is an important question, I say His grace is, yes, infinitely abundant, offered to all men, through His Son Jesus, which we are free to accept or not. If we choose to accept, we receive salvation, if we choose to decline, we in turn choose condemnation. But He does not make us choose, He lets us choose.
I'm not saying his grace runs out. I'm saying he witholds his grace and gives his grace as HE pleases. Why do I say this? Because the Scriptures say it over and over again.
A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall."[d]
They stumble because they disobey the message
—which is also what they were destined for. -1 Peter 2:8
I agree with Scripture that God gives common grace to all, God allows the rain to fall on the righteous and unrighteous. But he gives special grace to the elect thus the verse "many are called but few are chosen." And I believe that God will not lose a single one of his chosen ones because he is God and he can do anything and he does what he pleases.
If you choose to accept God, if you make a decision, you only do so because he has been steering your choice all along. What is so difficult for you about a salvation that begins and ends with God? Thank God it begins and ends with him because if it was solely up to me I'd choose hell every time!
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They choose against Him, so you know what happens to them. But yet again, you did not answer my question, which you have a habit of doing.
You needed an answer to your rhetorical question that I've answered over and over again in this thread? Very well, then...They are damned, just as you would say of all unbelievers. Unbelievers are damned to hell, pure and simple. We arrive at the same end, though by different means.
quote:
And yet again you fail to answer a question. And we have enough information in the bible to make an informed decision on how hell will be or heaven will be, that they do exist, and that there is a penalty for sin, so that is no excuse for the choice at hand.
Well, that's nonsense. You haven't been to heaven or hell so experientially you don't have full or even solid parital information. You haven't stood in the presence of God as Isaiah did or saw the Lord pass by as Moses, so you have no direct knowledge of the glory that is to come for those who love God. You haven't been crushed under the wrath of God in depths of hell for even a moment so you have no idea of the terrors of hell. And apart from the Gospel, written by God, given by God and provided by God, you would have no means to make any "choice" at all.
"Or are you just saying that God only predestined those whom He knew would eventually come to faith." I'm saying that God predestined his elect and they come. It was never in doubt, never at random. I've now said this to you and others on this thread multiple times. God knows who his chosen are and he gives his grace to them as he pleases. His grace does not run out if he holds it back from some while giving it others anymore than if you gave $10 to your child when you have a $100 billion in the bank.
Your argument begins and ends with a false premise.
quote:
And yes God did see a greater amount of glory on the other side of sin, but where is the glory in only allowing a few who were chosen ahead of time , who had no choice to come to God, and be set free from that life of sin. If it isn't our choice to bet set free, where is the glory in that for God. If He doesn't let us choose to ask Him into our lives and free us from this bondage, but makes us when the time is right, which He determined ahead of time, and gives us no choice to do, where my friend is the glory in that?
You mean where is the glory in turning ungrateful rebels who have no desire for him, who hate his people and ways, who are hoplessly lost in their sin, into his children? Where is the unbelievable forgiveness in that? Where is the depths of an unimaginable love?
And can you see the direct answer here SbG though I answer it in question form, or will you just repeat the dishonest assertion that I dodge your question beause of the form I choose in answering your questions?
You work when you choose and therefore there is no faith.
quote:
I never said we could save ourselves, only Jesus can save us. What I continue to say is that we have to choose to believe in the one who can save us.
You don't believe that only Jesus can save you because you believe that Jesus can only save you if you first choose him. That's not an "only Jesus can save us" salvation.
quote:
And I have chosen to believe in Him, instead of living in bondage to sin, so your theory was just shot down.
Jesus said "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15) and that "if the Son sets you free you will be free indeed" (John 8). If you believe in him, you may arrogantly think you chose him, but it was him all along - if the Spirit is indeed in you. What you feel does not determine whether or not Christ is in you. If Christ is in you, then you will produce fruit according to your faith.
And this isn't what I say SbG, it's what the Gospel says.
quote:
I agree with you, all men do have a desire given by God to know Him. But only a few, henceforth the few spoken of who will enter into heaven, act out on that desire, and take it from desire to know God to a personal relationship with God.
It tells us in the bible that all the proof that there is a God is seen in His creation, so we wouldn't be making a decision on limited knowledge if we chose not to believe.
I answered your question directly. You just didn't like the answer. Whoever wills to come to God only comes because God has put that will in him. That was the heart of my direct answer. Not that all men have this desire because all do not come.
I don't believe in a Holy Spirit that is not powerful enough to save those he draws.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 2:16:36 AM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
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quote:
Conquered, you made the following statement, "God does see down through the corridors of time, but in that seeing he also saw himself intervening in the lives of men to bring glory to himself." Now I think we can all agree that the whole redemption plan is for God's glory, to bring him honor, glory and praise. So here lies the problem. If God intervenes and supplants my will how does that bring glory to God? Love not given freely is no love at all. If I am "forced" to accept God by no will or choice of my own how does that bring glory to God?
If I would intervene in a family members drug addiction, though he was perfectly happy in his drug use and/or denied the problem, and if I forced him into treatment and his life was saved and he was eventually grateful to me for saving his life by sobering him, are you asking me how there would be glory and love in that?
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 2:35:50 AM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
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Ezra,
quote:
First of all, with God nothing is impossible, and all things are possible. So let's rule out all talk about "impossibility". Secondly, God knows every free choice in advance, and even reversals of free choices. That does not mean He predetermines those choices. He just foreknows them in His Divine omniscience. He knows the end from the beginning.
How then did the death of Jesus occur exactly as the Scripture foretold at the hands of sinful men?
Reversals of free choices? Wouldn't that simply be a free choice not choose some other thing, which would be what a free choice is to begin with?
Anyway, if an all-powerful Being sees a choice that would be made and has the full capability to stop it then it is his will to allow it. If God has the greater will, and he allows me to do something, then it is his will to allow it, which is HIS WILL.
You can't say that God sees something, allows it and then says...oops, that wasn't what I wanted. If something happens it's because he saw it, allowed it and permitted it according to his will. There are no random events in this universe.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 2:45:08 AM
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atruefaith
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quote:
Nowhere will you find that election and predestination are connected with choosing sinners for Heaven or Hell. Rather they are closely connected with choosing believers for eternal privileges above and beyond deliverance from Hell.
Nowhere will you find a multi-layered salvation in Scripture.
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. - Eph 1:4-7
A plain reading of the text shows clearly that this is true of all who are saved by the grace of God. All who are saved are chosen, all who are chosen believe.
Nowhere in Scripture will find a verse that says man has the ability to choose God. There is no verse, "I have put in man the ability to choose me or to reject me." It simply doesn't exist. Yet time and again those who cling to a salvation they think is born out of themselves that cannot be defended by Scripture.
< Message edited by Conquered -- 5/22/2008 2:51:15 AM >
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 2:46:35 AM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
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quote:
This would appear to be the heart of your argument, but it is merely a rationalization of something which you cannot comprehend. From your limited human perspective it is "absurd" to believe that while God is omniscient, He can and does give men free choice.
He gives all men free will....the freedom to sin as much as they please.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 4:21:14 AM
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justasheep
Posts: 44
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quote:
From your limited human perspective it is "absurd" to believe that while God is omniscient, He can and does give men free choice.
Ezra,
How can God be both omniscient while at the same time giving man his ultimate freedom of choice. This all sounds good to our 21st century minds but scripture speeks of God's decrees as facts. His omniscience is not something that can be changed or over ruled by our wills. I know that you would agree that God's will is greater than our will, His decrees much more firm than ours. But you say for the love of mankind and even for the sanctity of love itself, God had to allow free will to have dominion over the world. Whether you see it or not, that is what is occurring. Man has become sovereign and God has placed himself on the back burner. This sounds more like deism or open theism. So where in your understanding does God manifest His marvelous decretive workings? How is it that none of Jesus' sheep will be lost, and how do all of his sheep hear his voice? Are all of these promises just based on God "looking down the corridor of time." I know these points have been made. (ad nauseam) Even after all this posts I guess I don't understand your position.
quote:
That is the whole point of the Gospel. So what you are saying is that the preaching of the Gospel to sinners is absurd. I wonder if Christ would agree .
Common you keep bringing this up. God's choosing has nothing to do with our call to preach the gospel. God uses the preached gospel by clay pot vessels to bring those who he has chosen to himself. I look at it as very liberating that God will change a heart inspite of my lack of eloquence or persuasive speech. You must be burdoned because honestly in your system, man's choosing relies sole on the one who is preaching. Please stop making this assertion, it is dishonest and mean spirited. I have met some of the most earnest evangelists, while holding fast to the doctrines of grace as understood by the reformers. If you say why bother preach the gospel if God has already chosen, well that's the point isn't. You ought to be preaching the gospel because of the glorious impact it has made on your life, the beauty that you see in Christ and His cross and your love for Him who first loved you. If that's not enough impetus, I'm not sure what could persuade you.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 9:51:42 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 551
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quote:
quote:
It was God's initiative to offer an escape.In fact it had to be his initiative,because we could do nothing otherwise to effect the outcome.To say that God can not choose to elect some,rather then punishing all. Is a case that I am not prepared to take against him.
.... I rest my case.
sunofone:
I agree that salvation is all of God. However...
You believe you have rested your case on the assumption that God elects some to Heaven and others to Hell. That case remains to be proved. Thank you Ezra for a well thought out and fair response to my post.Let me just clear something up here.I beleive that what God says is true is true,as I'm sure you do as well.
When I say that God can't elect some and not all is an assertion or case that I am not prepared to make against him. I'm simply submitting to God's will.
As I'm sure you are aware there are three major camps in regards to this initiative of God.Two of which though differing stand on common ground.That is most will certainly go to hell,and few will most certainly inherit the kingdom.
They just disagree as to the how and why of it.The other camp stands alone in saying none will be eternally lost,and that all will be saved.I have looked,and continue to look at all three camps closely.
Up until a year ago I had no theological concept of either group.Without knowing it I spent the better part of twenty five years being a die hard warrior of the Armenian position.
I believed in freewill to my core,and everything you say,I said. I have since be drawn away from this position,at first with great agony. I didn't want to let go of my freewill. It made everything make sense in the world for me.
As I said in an earlier post,on it's face it is to me the most reasonable position of the three major camps. When you take away freewill something unsettling happens,The power of God increases,while of course mines decreases.
To spite this my responsibility for my choices has not changed. The degree to which God holds me accountable has not changed. The only thing that has changed is my perception/awareness of myself as a human being,and God as my creator.
It is a humbling,somewhat terrifying feeling to realize that my fate is in the hands of God. To now realize that I am helplessly hopeless,apart from him is frightening.
Removing freewill,was like removing the ground from under my feet. On the other side of that fear is peace and comfort.I now realize that God gets what he wants.His will will done on earth as it is in heaven.
I doubt any of us believe that in heaven God has to contend with anyones freewill. His will is being done in heaven without it,as well as here in the earth.
Those of us who are in Christ are dead to ourselves and alive only in Christ.It is to the point that it is no more I,but Christ who is on the inside who is doing the work.
I'm a dead living man.I used my freewill once if you will in the garden when I decided to disobey God.From that moment on.no decision I made from that day forward was free.I remained a slave to sin,and it's desires I was duty bound to fulfill.
If left in that state with no help/initiative from God,my end was inescapable.It was God who saved me.It was him that gave me a new life,by giving me a new heart,and a new mind so that I could begin to choose him.
It was the exercising of his will,not mine that brought me to this point.My will even now, hates and opposes God.Do not think for one moment that I would not turn my back on God in an instant,because I would.
I don't want to be managed and controlled by anyone,God included.I want to do whatever feels and seems right to me.
Yet here I am hopelessly devoted to him.Loving him to my death,dying daily to myself,and being made alive in him.
I realize that I must die,if I want to truly live;and I can't die as long as I have freewill.To try and keep freewill,is telling God I still reserve the right to walk out on you.
It is like the Woman who said or rather seven Women who said we will eat our own bread,and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name,to take away our reproach.(Isa 4:1)
Make no mistake about it I still have a will to follow or submit to him.Before he came in and changed me this was not the case,All I could do was follow my own will.
But that's just it I wasn't free.It wasn't free/I wasn't free to exercise my will,I was bound,duty bound to follow it.This is just my way of paraphrasing what was spoken so eloquently by Paul in Romans chps 7 &8
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 10:14:42 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2000
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Sonofone, what you are saying doesn't make any sense to me. What I hear you saying is that we have no free will of our own. If that is the case then why is that a God who can not sin, tolerate sin or even be sin, would have us live a sinful life? We sin everyday. Does God choose that for us? If so, then how do you reckon this verse:
Hbr 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Hbr 3:13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is {still} called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
Hbr 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Hbr 3:15 while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
Hbr 3:16 For who provoked {Him} when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt {led} by Moses?
Hbr 3:17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
Hbr 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
Hbr 3:19 {So} we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Disobedience is a choice. He would not deem that some are destined for heaven and others hell. He would not deem some for complete disobedience. These are choices we make. What about the knowledge He has given us? Why preach the Gospel at all? If there is no choice then it would be a waste of time here on earth to preach something that cannot change the eternal outcome. You speak of freedom, the freedom in Christ comes in from knowing that we are alive to Him and dead to the eternal consequences of sin, should we choose to repent of our sin.
Maybe the conflict comes in from God being omniscient and yet we have the ability to choose Him or to not choose Him. Meaning that we choose, yet He already knows the choice we will make and not interfere?
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Luke 8:16
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 10:44:39 AM
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RevMick
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quote:
The dead cannot choose life from the grave anymore than the spirtually dead can choose spiritual life. Dead wills lack the capacity to choose leternal life.
If this is true then you are saying that Jesus' time on earth was for nothing as we were all spiritually dead prior to His Salvation. And by extension the Great Commission(Matthew 28:19) is a useless venture as no one can be saved from hearing the truth. Further for your statement to be true the Jesus' own words in John 3:3 are false; "I assure you; Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (HCSB) To me this means that the 'spiritually dead' can be born again in the Holy Spirit.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 10:52:30 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 551
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quote:
Disobedience is a choice. He would not deem that some are destined for heaven and others hell. He would not deem some for complete disobedience. These are choices we make. What about the knowledge He has given us? Why preach the Gospel at all? If there is no choice then it would be a waste of time here on earth to preach something that cannot change the eternal outcome. You speak of freedom, the freedom in Christ comes in from knowing that we are alive to Him and dead to the eternal consequences of sin, should we choose to repent of our sin.
I have never said that man has no will,or is incapable of making choices.I simply disagree that man has a will that can be considered free from the restrictions of God.
To spite this my responsibility for my choices has not changed. The degree to which God holds me accountable has not changed. The only thing that has changed is my perception/awareness of myself as a human being,and God as my creator.
If God raised me up to show me that only he is Holy, that would be his choice,his prerogative. That being said,I believe God has created man for a much more noble position.
That is another topic of it's own however.
Here is the bottom line concerning God and our will.God has declared that all are under the penalty of sin by reason or consequence of our choice made through or by Adam.
The sentence of death and eternal separation has been placed on us all.The story could end right there,but it doesn't.It doesn't end there because God in his will decided that it wouldn't.
It was God's initiative to offer an escape.In fact it had to be his initiative,because we could do nothing otherwise to effect the outcome.To say that God can not choose to elect some,rather then punishing all. Is a case that I am not prepared to take against him.
It is not for me to say,suggest and most certainly not tell or demand that God do what I feel is right or fair. I trust that God is who and what he says he is.He says he is good and righteous and just,and I believe him.
When I say that God can't elect some and not all is an assertion or case that I am not prepared to make against him. I'm simply submitting to God's will.
Those of us who are in Christ are dead to ourselves and alive only in Christ.It is to the point that it is no more I,but Christ who is on the inside who is doing the work.
I'm a dead living man.I used my freewill once if you will in the garden when I decided to disobey God.From that moment on.no decision I made from that day forward was free.I remained a slave to sin,and it's desires I was duty bound to fulfill.
If left in that state with no help/initiative from God,my end was inescapable.It was God who saved me.It was him that gave me a new life,by giving me a new heart,and a new mind so that I could begin to choose him.
It was the exercising of his will,not mine that brought me to this point.My will even now, hates and opposes God.Do not think for one moment that I would not turn my back on God in an instant,because I would.
I don't want to be managed and controlled by anyone,God included.I want to do whatever feels and seems right to me.
Yet here I am hopelessly devoted to him.Loving him to my death,dying daily to myself,and being made alive in him.
I realize that I must die,if I want to truly live;and I can't die as long as I have freewill.To try and keep freewill,is telling God I still reserve the right to walk out on you.
It is like the Woman who said or rather seven Women who said we will eat our own bread,and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name,to take away our reproach.(Isa 4:1)
Make no mistake about it I still have a will to follow or submit to him.Before he came in and changed me this was not the case,All I could do was follow my own will.
But that's just it I wasn't free.It wasn't free/I wasn't free to exercise my will,I was bound,duty bound to follow it.This is just my way of paraphrasing what was spoken so eloquently by Paul in Romans chps 7 &8
< Message edited by sunofone -- 5/22/2008 11:05:02 AM >
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 10:56:53 AM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
Conquered, you made the following statement, "God does see down through the corridors of time, but in that seeing he also saw himself intervening in the lives of men to bring glory to himself." Now I think we can all agree that the whole redemption plan is for God's glory, to bring him honor, glory and praise. So here lies the problem. If God intervenes and supplants my will how does that bring glory to God? Love not given freely is no love at all. If I am "forced" to accept God by no will or choice of my own how does that bring glory to God?
If I would intervene in a family members drug addiction, though he was perfectly happy in his drug use and/or denied the problem, and if I forced him into treatment and his life was saved and he was eventually grateful to me for saving his life by sobering him, are you asking me how there would be glory and love in that?
That would be all fine and good if the reason behind my acceptance of Jesus was solely based on my desire to stay out of hell. And after reading all these posts it appears that that is the bottom line of all these arguments. God chooses us to go to heaven or he chooses us to go to hell.
The problem here is that when you come to Jesus it is more than just eternal life in heaven. It is a personal relationship with the living God, both in heaven and in the here and now.
So when you say that God affects, influences, forces, whatever word you want to use here, when He does that so that I would love Him then it is not love at all.
Let's look at it another way, say I'm a hypnotist and I meet a lovely woman I would like to spend the rest of my life with so I hypnotize her into loving me, thereby supplanting her free will. The question then becomes does this woman really love me? Of course not, she is only reacting to what I have forced her to do. I ask again, where is the love in that? Where does God get the glory from that?
I believe God to be so much more than just a lifeguard keeping me from drowning. He is my eternal Father, my Friend, my Comforter and still so much more. Yes, if He forced me to believe in Him I still get the benefit from all of this, I still get the relationship, but what does God get? What kind of glory it is when you force someone to love you.
Like I said, love not given freely is no love at all.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 10:59:43 AM
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RevMick
Posts: 12
Joined: 5/21/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
So does this mean that all the sins that God orchestrated around Jesus' death, and in order for him to die and rise again so that you might find forgiveness for your sins, were not according to God's will?
Might I suggest that you read the book of James. Chapter 1 verses 13, 14, 15 explain that God does not tempt anyone with evil for God is not evil. One is drawn away from God by evil desires that exist in us all because of our sinful nature that has been present since the Garden of Eden. Desire gives birth to sin and sin gives birth to death when fully grown. What keeps us from sinning is the desire to be closer to God. A conscious decision to do what is right is God's eyes and to deny our own sinful nature.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 11:14:31 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2000
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
I realize that I must die,if I want to truly live;and I can't die as long as I have freewill.To try and keep freewill,is telling God I still reserve the right to walk out on you.
This is why the gate is narrow....
ORIGINAL: inthysite
The problem here is that when you come to Jesus it is more than just eternal life in heaven. It is a personal relationship with the living God, both in heaven and in the here and now.
Exactly, we choose to develop this relationship.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 11:18:42 AM
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RevMick
Posts: 12
Joined: 5/21/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
I do not believe God orchestrated sins. Putting Christ to death is the reaction of sinful humanity to the presence of God. When we choose sin over God, we are putting Christ to death in ourselves in a similar manner.
So Jesus' death, and the salvation that comes through him, was just the result of random chance? I doubt you believe this.
You don't think that God foreknew that the "reaction of sinful humanity in the presence of God" would carry the exact chain of events that God foretold through the prophets hundreds of years before they happened?
quote:
So Jesus' death, and the salvation that comes through him, was just the result of random chance? I doubt you believe this.
You don't think that God foreknew that the "reaction of sinful humanity in the presence of God" would carry the exact chain of events that God foretold through the prophets hundreds of years before they happened?
quote:
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. - Ephesians 2:1-2
The dead cannot choose life from the grave anymore than the spirtually dead can choose spiritual life. Dead wills lack the capacity to choose leternal life.
The spiritually dead that are still living do have the choice to be saved. Here is what it takes; the spiritually dead must hear the Gospel, through the Gospel one becomes aware of their sins (...for through the law [comes] the knowledge of sin.' Romans 3:20 HCSB) Once we know of our sins the we choose to repent and ask forgiveness from God the follow Him or we continue on our merry way and face judgment another day. You are right on one point, the spiritually dead that are not living 'the dead in Christ' have missed the opportunity to repent.
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"For God did not send His Son in the the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." John 3:17 HCSB
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 11:41:14 AM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
The spiritually dead that are still living do have the choice to be saved.
Apart from God they have no choice. They are dead and dead men don't choose. They may be naturally alive, but they are spiritually dead.
But..they [and any] will be saved should God choose to save them.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 12:01:52 PM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
So does this mean that all the sins that God orchestrated around Jesus' death, and in order for him to die and rise again so that you might find forgiveness for your sins, were not according to God's will?
Might I suggest that you read the book of James. Chapter 1 verses 13, 14, 15 explain that God does not tempt anyone with evil for God is not evil. One is drawn away from God by evil desires that exist in us all because of our sinful nature that has been present since the Garden of Eden. Desire gives birth to sin and sin gives birth to death when fully grown. What keeps us from sinning is the desire to be closer to God. A conscious decision to do what is right is God's eyes and to deny our own sinful nature.
I memorized the passage several years ago, so I think I've read it a few times. God indeed does not tempt us to evil, but he permits it for the purposes of his will. In your natural state you are free to sin as much as you wish so there is no need for God to tempt you with a desire that is inherent to you. But God uses sin for his purposes and plans that were laid before the world's creation:
18 His brothers then came and threw themselves down before him. "We are your slaves," they said.
19 But Joseph said to them, "Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God? 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. - Genesis 50:18-20
And let's not forget Judas whose sin of betrayal was predicted a 1000 years before Christ's death whom Jesus himself said must come to pass in order to fulfill Scripture.
So do you think that the sins of these men were the results of mere random acts? The Scriptures are filled with God using the sins of men, who sin freely in their captive state, who he allows to accomplish his plans.
< Message edited by Conquered -- 5/22/2008 12:30:16 PM >
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 12:24:40 PM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
That would be all fine and good if the reason behind my acceptance of Jesus was solely based on my desire to stay out of hell. And after reading all these posts it appears that that is the bottom line of all these arguments.
Not at all. God is the great treasure, not heaven. What good is heaven if Christ is not there? If your sole desire for God is merely to escape hell, you are not saved and you do not have Christ. "There is no fear in love, because fear has to do with punishment the one who fears is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4)
quote:
The problem here is that when you come to Jesus it is more than just eternal life in heaven. It is a personal relationship with the living God, both in heaven and in the here and now.
Amen.
quote:
So when you say that God affects, influences, forces, whatever word you want to use here, when He does that so that I would love Him then it is not love at all.
It absolutely is love. We love, because he first loved us (1 John 4:19). We have been broken by his will first, on account of his undeserved love, so that we might desire him.
quote:
Let's look at it another way, say I'm a hypnotist and I meet a lovely woman I would like to spend the rest of my life with so I hypnotize her into loving me, thereby supplanting her free will. The question then becomes does this woman really love me? Of course not, she is only reacting to what I have forced her to do. I ask again, where is the love in that? Where does God get the glory from that?
This would all be true if the your initial conditions were correct. Instead, hwoever they are completely wrong. There is no lovely woman being hypnotized when it comes to sinners. Spiritually speaking, there is nothing lovely in and of ourselves. There are only enraged murderers who rather kill God than listen to him, and yet of some he breaks their madness and turns them to him in spite of themselves.
quote:
I believe God to be so much more than just a lifeguard keeping me from drowning. He is my eternal Father, my Friend, my Comforter and still so much more.
So do I. He’s not just my Savior but my Father, Priest and King as well! He is to be my very life.
quote:
Yes, if He forced me to believe in Him I still get the benefit from all of this, I still get the relationship, but what does God get? What kind of glory it is when you force someone to love you.
If you are awakened and sobered from your sin you’re pretty happy about it.  At the point of salvation, you freely believe and happily accept him. Only thing is, he has already invaded your old life and shattered it. Only after this point do you freely believe and happily accept him. There was no choice on your part before he came crashing in. And again, I will say that you’re really happy about it at this point because you understand just how freely he has given grace to such an undeserved.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/22/2008 12:42:17 PM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
It absolutely is love. We love, because he first loved us (1 John 4:19). We have been broken by his will first, on account of his undeserved love, so that we might desire him.
Exactly, I love God because He first loved me! Not because He manipulated me into loving Him but because of the love He shows me by forgiving my sins, by sending His Son to the cross to die for me. So I choose to love Him, I desire to love Him, because of the love He showed me.
It is His love that changes my desires for Him, not His manipulation of my feelings, my will, my choice.
quote:
This would all be true if the your initial conditions were correct. Instead, hwoever they are completely wrong. There is no lovely woman being hypnotized when it comes to sinners. Spiritually speaking, there is nothing lovely in and of ourselves. There are only enraged murderers who rather kill God than listen to him, and yet of some he breaks their madness and turns them to him in spite of themselves.
No my conditions are not completely wrong when you take the view that I have that God loves the whole world, each and every one of His creations and desires, longs for a relationship with each and every one of them. This is why the bible tells us that it is God's desire that none should perish.
However, I could possibly see your side when you view that God does not love everyone, then sure my conditions would be incorrect. It all stands or falls on your view of how and who God loves.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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