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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/20/2008 8:44:55 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1132
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
You are not saying that God allows sin, you are saying that He causes the person to remain in that sin, and that He then condemns the sinner to hell for the sin that God Himself imposed upon the individual. You are saying that God judges not based on justice, but on His own perverted sense of cosmic humor. Believe or die, oh, and BTW you can't believe, Haha.
I'm saying you don't understand God as he has revealed himself in Scripture. Do you really believe that all the sins committed by sinful men that put Jesus on the cross for your salvation was done at random? You don't think that God engineered the death of his Son at the hands of sinful men as the Scriptures say?
quote:
Our Lord has made it abundantly clear that the reluctance is on mans part, not Gods.
quote:
It is God's will that we have free will. God is willing...it is man who is not.
Therefore if God is willing he doesn't get what he pleases when his Word says that he always gets what he pleases.
You argue against something that has not been said. Gods will is that we have free will. We do. Therefore God HAS what He pleases. You have taken the depravity of man to the point where the "all powerful God" you claim to believe in, cannot possibly reach him. Worse than that, you blame God Himself for that very continued depravity. Your God is the villain, not the Savior.
I do not know the God you see revealed in Scripture...I know the true living God...I know Him in the person of Jesus Christ, my Savior, who died not only for my sins, but for the sins of the whole world.
"For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life."
Your God did not send His Son to save. Your God sent His Son to die for nothing, for there was nothing to die for. Those who are perishing cannot be saved, and those who have been elected have no need of being saved. You have made a mockery of Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Your God sent His Son not to die not for the sins of the world, but merely to take part in some sick, twisted drama.
I do not know the God you see revealed in Scripture, nor do I wish to. I know Jesus, and He is all I need.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/20/2008 8:45:16 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 551
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
You are not saying that God allows sin, you are saying that He causes the person to remain in that sin, and that He then condemns the sinner to hell for the sin that God Himself imposed upon the individual. You are saying that God judges not based on justice, but on His own perverted sense of cosmic humor. Believe or die, oh, and BTW you can't believe, Haha.
In your universe Gods judgement falls upon those who have remained in their rebellious state of unbelief, only because they have been unable to exercise an ability to obey the gospel, which only God can give, and which He has refused to give them. It is the ultimate catch 22.
This is an idea that brings Gods righteousness and judgement into contempt and disrepute.
This pretty much sums up the Arminean position,then in the middle we have the UR who can't have God sending anyone to hell,and lastly the Calvinist position.
Up until several months ago I had no concept of any of the positions.I was told by someone here that I was Calvinist and I honestly had no idea what it was I thought of tulips as a sort of flower,not doctrine.
In my limited observation I see the extremism in each camp,and each camp vehemently denounces the other,in fact the only place of true unison between the camps is their denouncement of the UR position.That camp is left on an Island all to itself.
Amazingly as I study all sides of the argument I see a progression somewhat.I know that I started off without realizing it an Armenian,staunchly I might add.
It is the most reasonable of the three positions to have,in fact I don't know if it's even possible to start off a Calvinist without at least passing through the Armenian camp,but for early indoctrination or exposure to it.
My experience has been that most every Calvinist are able to see clearly the position of the Armenians,what they are saying and why they are saying it.It seems far fewer can be said of the Armenians,it's like a mental block.As for the UR what they believe is simple enough to understand,it's just not as clear how they successfully clear the hurdles of scripture to arrive there.
I don't consider myself to be in any camp,as I said earlier I was sent to the side of the Calvinist by a few here after sharing my views.What I find interesting is that both the Armenians and the UR as a basis of their faith have some pretty strong opinions about God,and what he must be like,and what he must do.
In holding these positions God absolutely must fit certain boxes,failure for him to do so means he's unfair,he has a perverted sense of judgment,he's unfit to both judge us,or be served by us.
I don't mean to be argumentative or pick fights by picking sides,I'm just making an observation.The reason I suppose I have become some sort of Calvinist is by default.I accept that God can and will do what he wants to.It does not have to make sense to me,it does not have to meet my approval,although in my flesh I constantly question God and second guess him.I don't let let that rule my theology or how I ultimately see him.
No Calvinist will ever be successful in converting if you will an Armenian,just as no UR will ever be successful in de-converting either position.
The overwhelming reason for this is not an inability to properly exegete scripture, rather it is the emotional stakes in the ground that tie a person to their position.
I like the Calvinist am willing to let the chips fall where they may.I'm going to resist the emotional ties that would bind me to either position.If I wanted to say it's not fair that God should send anyone to hell to burn for eternity,I'd probably find the UR message appealing,If I wanted to say God is fair,and just and wants everyone to be saved and send no one to hell,I'd probably be an Armenian.
If on the other hand I can admit to myself that I have emotional self interest for both camps,yet am willing to press forward and just see what God is saying and doing I can't be in either camp,so by default I end up Calvinist although I don't think the Calvinist would have me either given what I believe I see God saying and doing.
What I hope would happen here is that all of us would check our emotional ties at the door and embrace God for who HE is not what he MUST be according to our reasoning.
Here is one hurdle I can't see any Armenian getting over and it's been asked several times here.If we have no ability to choose God on our own how would or could anyone choose God?
The answer has to be God chooses us first,that in and of itself is a violation of our will.Here is the train on the track,all of us are rolling down the track to hell with no brakes and no reverse gear,and then something happens to stop the train.
The fact that we ultimately choose him is not about our will but his.Just the same the the post by Ezra concerning the order of predestination following Gods foreknowledge was an excellent observation and something I don't think was mused over properly.
I think both positions deserve a little more time and thoughtful consideration to see just what God is both saying and doing.I know there is a thread for the argument of this,yet I think restricting the argument to the will of God vs ours is a good thread of it's own.
If this was cast into the other thread I'd be long gone as that place is a worm hole or a black hole of sorts,no offense intended.
From where I stand I don't believe we have freewill, I only believe we have a will.I don't believe our will is as precious to God as any here would like to believe.I love my son and want him to grow up with a mind of his own and be a responsible adult and able to fend for himself,but while I'm still responsible for him I routinely violate his will,one day he'll even come to thank me for it.
I thank God right now that he routinely violates my will,because if I had my way,if left alone to my own devices I wouldn't be here typing on this forum,I'd probably be one of the most famous atheist you ever heard of,and don't even get me to talking about what kind of sinful appetite I would give free reign to.
I thank God that he violates my will.My will is only good enough to say yes Lord, keep having your way.Because of God and his will I know enough about my will to say I don't want it.
< Message edited by sunofone -- 5/20/2008 9:04:34 AM >
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/20/2008 10:02:18 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1132
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
You are not saying that God allows sin, you are saying that He causes the person to remain in that sin, and that He then condemns the sinner to hell for the sin that God Himself imposed upon the individual. You are saying that God judges not based on justice, but on His own perverted sense of cosmic humor. Believe or die, oh, and BTW you can't believe, Haha.
In your universe Gods judgement falls upon those who have remained in their rebellious state of unbelief, only because they have been unable to exercise an ability to obey the gospel, which only God can give, and which He has refused to give them. It is the ultimate catch 22.
This is an idea that brings Gods righteousness and judgement into contempt and disrepute.
This pretty much sums up the armenian position,then in the middle we have the UR who can't have God sending anyone to hell,and lastly the Calvinist position.
Until Christians stop defining themselves and others by these labels and doctrines we invent, there will be no unity. It is simply bigotry in all its ugly self. Bigotry exists because of the unwillingness of those who practice it, to deal with persons as individuals. I am an armenian, you are a calvinist, I am a Westlyen, you are a whatever.
Well....I am a Christian. Plain and simple. If your identity is wrapped up in anything other than that of being a Child of God, then you have missed the mark.
It is not about all these things we event to separate ourselves. It is about Jesus Christ, who is the Word, and who is the Truth. When you "camp" in anything other than Him, you have pitched your tent on a slippery slope.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/20/2008 10:08:10 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 551
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
Well....I am a Christian. Plain and simple. If your identity is wrapped up in anything other than that of being a Child of God, then you have missed the mark.
It is not about all these things we event to separate ourselves. It is about Jesus Christ, who is the Word, and who is the Truth. When you "camp" in anything other than Him, you have pitched your tent on a slippery slope. I agree with this myself 
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/20/2008 10:13:51 AM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
You argue against something that has not been said. Gods will is that we have free will. We do.
Where is the Scripture that proves this? I don't see free will in Paul's conversion. Nor in the other conversions of Acts. You've simply made a naked assertion UR that appeals to your flesh.
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Therefore God HAS what He pleases. You have taken the depravity of man to the point where the "all powerful God" you claim to believe in, cannot possibly reach him.
Because I agree with the Scriptures when they say that an all-powerful God must save a completely helpless humanity that is dead in their tresspasses and sins (Eph. 2:1-2)?
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Worse than that, you blame God Himself for that very continued depravity. Your God is the villain, not the Savior.
Not at all. I don't blame him but thank him. Yes, we were both born as slaves into sin. We can thank Adam and ourselves for that. Adam had a free choice before he sinned. He freely sinned and we confirm his choice, not in freedom, but in what we do in accordance with his original desire. We are sons of Adam indeed, as C.S. Lewis wrote.
Everyone who sins is a slave to sin, and outside Christ, will always be a slave - in the fullest sense of what slavery is.
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I do not know the God you see revealed in Scripture...I know the true living God...I know Him in the person of Jesus Christ, my Savior, who died not only for my sins, but for the sins of the whole world.
Then I pray you will see the God who reveals himself there. God wills sin and uses it for his purposes. He is not sin. He is not what his nature isn't.
But if God did not will sin according to his plan, then you cannot explain the death and resurrecton of Jesus (not to mention the details about his death) as was foretold hundreds of years earlier.
"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. - Acts 2:22-23
UR, it's plain in this text and many, many others.
quote:
"For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life."
Amen. No one is denying this. Repent and believe or perish. But ony those who repent are those God has granted the means to repent. Just as you had no choice in being born into this world, you have no choice whether or not you'll be born into the world to come. Thanks be to our God who liberally gives mercy!
You say: But I feel God working in my life now as he has worked before. Good! Then go to him and cling to him in faith according to the desire he has put in you.
quote:
Your God did not send His Son to save. Your God sent His Son to die for nothing, for there was nothing to die for. Those who are perishing cannot be saved, and those who have been elected have no need of being saved. You have made a mockery of Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Your God sent His Son not to die not for the sins of the world, but merely to take part in some sick, twisted drama.
I'm quoting Scripture and resaoning it out with you and now you're persecuting me for it? Should I now rejoice on account of Matthew 5:11-12?
UR, you're simply wrong in your assertions and accusations here. Christ had to die, just as the Scriptures foretold and just as God firmly planned from before the foundation of the world in order to reedem the elect. Yes, Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world, that is for everyone without exception. His death was enough to save all of humanity but he himself has said that there are many who will die in their sin. He says that there are many that he could have turned from hell, that will not turn. So who ultimately permitted that if God's will is greater than ours? This is the question that you avoid.
And you cannot deny all this either because the whole world is not saved. But that said, this does not stop us from evangelizing to the lost because WE DO NOT KNOW WHO WILL BE SAVED out of the world. God choosing doesn't change the need to persevere or be grateful for what Christ has done for us because we don't see what will be revealed in every individuals life.
And what of Israel? Why did God choose them? Because Abraham chose God? No. We read that God revealed himself to him and gave him a shear undeserved grace in the form of a promise. What about the Egyptians or Assyrians? They weren't his chosen.
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I do not know the God you see revealed in Scripture, nor do I wish to. I know Jesus, and He is all I need.
Christ is all you need. Now continue in him and make your election sure just as Peter urges us to do in Scripture. Growing in the grace and confidence that God has chosen you.
But if you don't see God as God, as he is described himself in his Word as a king in full control over everything, then how can you humble yourself before him? Praise be to God that he lovingly crashes into our souls to save undeserving, ungrateful sinners!
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/20/2008 11:40:03 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 551
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Mark 14 vs 36 And he said,Abba,Father, all things are POSSIBLE UNTO THEE.Take this cup from me;Nevertheless,not what I will,but what thou wilt.
This scripture is so powerful to me! God can do whatever he wants to.That being said,our refrain must be as Jesus was,not what I will,but what thou wilt.
It's not about what or why God wills,just that his will be done.There is no will including ours,which is greater then his.
Salvation is an act of the will,it is his will over ours and then our will in concert with his.Just as it was with Jesus.
God's will was clear,Jesus knew it.Jesus also knew that God could do whatever he wanted to,as all things are possible unto him.Never the less it is his will that will and must be done.
His will is to have many sons and our will can not stop it."His sovereign will is absolute,his moral will,or law can be disobeyed by men, and his desires are fulfilled only to the extent that they are included in his sovereign will".CS Scofield
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/20/2008 12:54:13 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1132
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
You argue against something that has not been said. Gods will is that we have free will. We do.
Where is the Scripture that proves this? I don't see free will in Paul's conversion. Nor in the other conversions of Acts. You've simply made a naked assertion UR that appeals to your flesh.
Yes, we were both born as slaves into sin. We can thank Adam and ourselves for that. Adam had a free choice before he sinned. He freely sinned and we confirm his choice, not in freedom, but in what we do in accordance with his original desire.
I am not going to engage in circular reasoning with you. What I have presented is simply the logical conclusion of what you believe. That is a place you are not "willing" to go, lol.
You believe that man lost free will with the fall, I do not. When your premise is off, then everything that comes after will be off. I know my God, and He is the God that the Holy Spirit has revealed to me through His Word.
Greater minds than ours have debated this since Mr Calvin came along, (or all the way back to Augustine if you please), and I am sure it will be debated till the Lord returns. I am secure in the knowledge of the Truth that has been given me.
Peace
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 5/20/2008 1:46:51 PM >
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/21/2008 12:37:58 AM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
I am not going to engage in circular reasoning with you. What I have presented is simply the logical conclusion of what you believe.
Which is what? What logical conclusion has proven my circular logic.
God holds the power of salvation and can grant it to whomever he wishes.
Man is powerless in his sin.
Therefore only God can grant salvation.
What is circular about that?
quote:
That is a place you are not "willing" to go, lol.
Simply dismissing an argument with a naked assertion is dishonest. I've proven, by Scritpure, both the logic behind my biblical view and have done it by simply using the text plainly w/o the hermeneuitcal gymnastics you've presented.
Again, you didn't address the very critical and simple question I asked: Did God plan the death of his own Son at the hands of sinful men?
If he did, and you know he did because the Scriptures say he did over and over again, then it destroys your view. Which by the way is a view that is not even close what Arminius believed but akin to the pelagian heresy that even he condemned.
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You believe that man lost free will with the fall, I do not. When your premise is off, then everything that comes after will be off.
Well, that's your opinion that once again is not backed by Scripture. Adam had free will in the Garden and he freely sinned. You do not have that luxury in your natural self because you are separated from God and mired in sin. What you believe is a heresy that was condemned 1,600 years ago and actually well before by Paul in Romans 5-9.
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I know my God, and He is the God that the Holy Spirit has revealed to me through His Word.
Very well, I pray that this is true. For if this is true, even though your behavior here has betrayed it, then God says it is because HE has chosen you, not that you chose God.
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Greater minds than ours have debated this since Mr Calvin came along, (or all the way back to Augustine if you please), and I am sure it will be debated till the Lord returns. I am secure in the knowledge of the Truth that has been given me.
Wonderful. Now if you merely had the humility to realize that God was one who gave it to you. You would do well to know what they actually believed as you've slandered and mischaracterized their positions and interpretations of Scripture. But you're right about one thing: Greater minds than ours have presented the Doctrines of Grace, and these well precede Augustine...minds like Paul, John, James, and Peter..to name but a few.
Peace to you and may you find his peace in his truth.
< Message edited by Conquered -- 5/21/2008 1:03:16 AM >
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/21/2008 12:39:48 AM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Mark 14 vs 36 And he said,Abba,Father, all things are POSSIBLE UNTO THEE.Take this cup from me;Nevertheless,not what I will,but what thou wilt.
This scripture is so powerful to me! God can do whatever he wants to.That being said,our refrain must be as Jesus was,not what I will,but what thou wilt.
Amen.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/21/2008 2:01:32 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1784
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quote:
Here is one hurdle I can't see any Armenian getting over and it's been asked several times here.If we have no ability to choose God on our own how would or could anyone choose God?
I do not believe that this is an insurmountable hurdle since I do not believe that anyone teaches that sinners "choose God on their own".
Left to themselves, sinners will not choose God. That is why:
(a) Christ commanded that the Gospel be preached to every creature
(b) Christ taught that when the Holy Spirit comes, He will "reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" (which is also through the Gospel)
(c) the Holy Spirit will convict and convince sinners as the Gospel is preached
(d) the Word of God will pierce the soul, even to the innermost being
(e) the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit will draw men to Christ
(f) the prayers of the saints for "all men" will have their impact in bringing souls to Christ.
All of this is solidly founded on the Word of God. And you can see from this that God seeks out souls to save, and He brings the Gospel in all its power to those who need salvation. Thus this "hurdle" becomes an imaginary one at best.
At the same time, God will compel none to be saved. This is also very clear from Scripture.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/21/2008 2:54:06 AM
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justasheep
Posts: 44
Joined: 5/13/2008
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quote:
From where I stand I don't believe we have freewill, I only believe we have a will.I don't believe our will is as precious to God as any here would like to believe.I love my son and want him to grow up with a mind of his own and be a responsible adult and able to fend for himself,but while I'm still responsible for him I routinely violate his will,one day he'll even come to thank me for it.
I thank God right now that he routinely violates my will,because if I had my way,if left alone to my own devices I wouldn't be here typing on this forum,I'd probably be one of the most famous atheist you ever heard of,and don't even get me to talking about what kind of sinful appetite I would give free reign to.
sunofone,
This particular statment really hit home. I think from a purely philosophical place you have perfectly nailed it. Scripture no doubt confirms all of these assertions but really, when we look at ourselves, it is not about some sort of battle of the wills but rather it is just about God and his grace that he changes our will from one degree of glory to another (sanctification). I, like you, if left to myself would have been undone long ago. I would have never chosen Jesus nor would He have chosen me if He had known how often I would not trust Him. I see this grace and mercy more and more, from the church that I attend, the wife that God has given, the brothers and sisters who surround me, all of this are God's means of keeping me. This only solidifies my understanding that Salvation is an absolute miracle that is completely outside of myself. "For from him and through him and to him are all things, to him be the glory." Romans 11:36
One coment that might be helpful, that sometimes Calvinists don't present as clear as they should is the fact that God uses means to accomplish His will. We see this in Paul's passionate plee for the Gospel in Romans 10 and really througout scripture where God is exhorting, commanding and yes compelling us to be obedient. The point at which God's soverignty is divorced from the means of producing his decrees, is really just fatalism. This is what the Arminian sees when we talk of God's sovereignty, but remember that He is always using these broken vessels to will and to work for His good pleasure. It's truly a mystery how all of this works itself out but no less true.
The soverignty of God in salvation is a God thing, it's not for us to even begin to wonder who is saved or who might be saved. We ought to preach the Gospel indescriminately to all men, knowing that God will save men from every tribe and every nation. It's interesting to note that most all of the early missionaries to the far reaches of the World had a confidence in God's soverignty in salvation, which compelled them to be so bold for the sake of the Gospel. Sorry to be so long winded, but I just wanted to share what your post had sparked in my heart, thanks for your honesty and humility.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/21/2008 8:43:24 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 551
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Here is one hurdle I can't see any Armenian getting over and it's been asked several times here.If we have no ability to choose God on our own how would or could anyone choose God?
I do not believe that this is an insurmountable hurdle since I do not believe that anyone teaches that sinners "choose God on their own".
Left to themselves, sinners will not choose God. That is why:
(a) Christ commanded that the Gospel be preached to every creature
(b) Christ taught that when the Holy Spirit comes, He will "reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" (which is also through the Gospel)
(c) the Holy Spirit will convict and convince sinners as the Gospel is preached
(d) the Word of God will pierce the soul, even to the innermost being
(e) the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit will draw men to Christ
(f) the prayers of the saints for "all men" will have their impact in bringing souls to Christ.
All of this is solidly founded on the Word of God. And you can see from this that God seeks out souls to save, and He brings the Gospel in all its power to those who need salvation. Thus this "hurdle" becomes an imaginary one at best.
At the same time, God will compel none to be saved. This is also very clear from Scripture.
Thanks for your response Ezra,I would like to further this discussion with you and in a separate post address the issue of foreknowledge of God as it relates to predestination and our will.
Let me start by saying that I know you can come off as being harsh and dogmatic.I have no problem with this for one simple reason.
I was once just like you.I don't say this or mean this in any condescending way or manner.I just happen to trust that your heart is for God and what is true,and like Saul you will defend what you believe is worthy of defending.
So you can pull no punches on my behalf if you feel so inclined to throw any at all. In other words I want you to have free course to express yourself as you always have 
On the issue of wills,both God and ours I want to isolate just for a discussion starter how God accomplishes saving an unregenerate man.
How do the Scriptures say we become converted? Does an ounce of "free will" enter into the conversion process according to the Scriptures?
1."Or despise you the riches of HIS goodness [‘His goodness;’ not our free will] and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADS [God’s ‘leading’ is the CAUSE] you to repentance?" (Rom. 2:4). Where is the ‘free will’ in this statement? "God LEADS…" is the cause of repentance, not free will.
2."No man CAN come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw [Gk: ‘drag’] him: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44). This verse is plain: "No man CAN…" come to Christ of his own will. It is the Father "dragging" him that is the cause of one coming to Christ, not his own supposed free will.
3."You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16). "I have CHOSEN you…" is the CAUSE and it is by Christ’s will, not man’s will.
4."For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [‘that faith’] not of yourselves [NOT of your own faith or will] it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).
Are we saved through the faith of our own will? NO. Do we do good works by our own will? NO. It is: God’s faith, God’s gift, God’s Workmanship, God’s creating, God’s ordaining. The cause is "His workmanship," not our own will.
No one can "freely" change his will from hating and disobeying God on one day to loving and obeying God on the next. No, it takes a supernatural miracle from God to accomplish this. God must Personally remove and free [here is the cause] us from being under the "Law of sin and death" to being under the "Law of the Spirit of life in Christ."
Does man accomplish this by his own will? Not unless you want to make a liar out of Jesus. Jesus says that He "frees us," so how can we say that we freely free ourselves?
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free [here is this ‘cause and effect’ thing again] from the law of sin and death" (Rom. 8:2).
We are all familiar with Romans 9 and have varying interpretations of it in fact vs 13 caused controversy to hearers who Paul was addressing and even now to the readers of the same.In fact the very same question asked there gets asked now which is:vs 19 Who has resisted his will?
First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."
So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"
To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!
So back to Paul’s questioners: If God causes us to do what we do, and no one ever has or ever can go against or resist that purpose of God, why does He blame us when we sin? And again, I will let Paul answer, since the question was directed to him. But you know what? Paul does not even deign to answer their question. That’s right, Paul proposes the question and then does not directly answer it. He considers the very question itself too demeaning, if not blasphemous to answer. Instead He says this:
"Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [that’s us] say to Him that formed it, [that’s GOD] Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter [GOD] power over the clay [man], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom. 9:20-21).
So for the purpose of discussing this I would suggest that it is the work of God,that any of us come to salvation,and would have to challenge your assertion that he does not at all compel us in bringing us to him.Especially in light of the fact that he literally drags us to him to begin with.
Where I grew up we have an expression of sorts in regards to being drugged to church.The inference being that Momma made us go even though we didn't want to.The end result being of course our ultimately being trained as a child as the bible teaches,and ultimately it leading us to come to salvation.
God drags us away from our natural inclination to resist him,until at last we like Saul have our natural sight taken from us,and in it's place given spiritual insight to see the error of ways,before being converted.
Although none of us have had a Saul like experience,all of us have experienced the same thing he experienced in our conversion.That is we were traveling on a road according to our sight that seemed right to us,when at last we were accosted,arrested by God and shown to the point of being blinded by his glorious light,and set on a new path.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/21/2008 10:17:11 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 551
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
They also preached about this term you have dismissed called predestination. You have removed any meaning from this word, to fit your theological preference.
Justasheep:
I have neither dismissed predestination nor removed the meaning of the word.
Predestination (Gk. proorizo) means to determine beforehand, and
Scripture says that (1) we are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:29), (2) we are predestinated to be holy, blameless, and filled with His love (Eph. 1:4), and (3) we are predestinated unto "the adoption of children" (Eph. 1:5) or the placing as adult children in God's family (which pertains to our inheritance).
Predestination and election pertain to the perfection of the saints and their enjoyment of their eternal inheritance with Christ. Election is according to God's foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2) and so is predestination. God has known from the foundation of the world the ones who will be perfected in Christ. Therefore the progression is (Rom. 8:29,30):
1. Foreknowledge
2. Predestination
3. Calling
4. Justification
5. Glorification
Nowhere does the Bible teach than any man is predestined for Heaven or for Hell. If it were true, there would be no need for the Gospel or for evangelism.
However, since the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world, all sinners may be saved if all will believe and repent. That is why the preaching of the Gospel is critical.
I'd like to discuss the issue of foreknowledge as you addressed here.Now perhaps I misunderstand you completely in regards to how you view Gods foreknowledge.If that is the case,I both apologize and stand corrected.
If I understand you correctly,you see God as having the ability to see what will happen,as if he has the vantage point of being all knowing.In one sense he would be a sort of cosmic soothsayer if you will,able to look through the annals of time and see what will happen,as opposed to predicting or causing things to happen.
Whether I'm off in my understanding of what you're saying or not.Let's just say that you believe that Gods Foreknowledge gives him the vantage point of being able yo know what will happen without necessarily affecting the out come.Sort of like a passive observer?
My understanding of Gods foreknowledge is less about him passively observing or having a vantage point of simply being all knowing.It is much more personal,like Jeremiah 1vs 4-5:
The word of the Lord came to me,saying,Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,Before you were born I set you apart;I appointed you as a Prophet to the nations.
Psalms 139 13-6:
For thou hast posses my inward parts;thou hast covered me in my mothers womb.I will praise thee;for I am fearfully and wonderously made.Marvelous are thy works,and and that my soul knowest right well.
My substance was not hidden from thee,when I was made in secret,and intricately wrought in the lower parts of the earth.
THINE EYES DID SEE MY SUBSTANCE,YET BEING UNFORMED AND IN THY BOOK ALL MY MEMBERS WERE WRITTEN,WHICH IN CONTINUANCE WERE FASHIONED, WHEN AS YET THERE WAS NONE OF THEM.
Isaiah 49 vs 5 AND NOW SAITH THE LORD WHO FORMED ME FROM THE WOMB TO BE HIS SERVANT,TO BRING JACOB AGAIN TO HIM,
My point being that God predestination/election are part and parcel to his foreknowledge.His foreknowledge is not passive but rather sovereign an example of which is Peter and the disciples:
FOREKNOWLEDGE CONTRADICTS FREE WILL
Can we believe that Jesus could have told His disciples the following:
"And Jesus said unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night, but then again, maybe not all of you will be offended, seeing that all of you have a free will to will against My pronouncement…."
Or maybe this to Peter:
"And Jesus said unto him [Peter] Verily I say unto you, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice, but then again, maybe you won’t deny Me three times, seeing that you have a free will that does not need to deny Me even once. It doesn’t depend on what I say, or circumstances brought about by My Father, or what God declares, but rather on your own free will."
Sounds a little silly when we look at it logically doesn’t it? Yet this IS the contention of those who believe in "free will." Maybe Peter will, but then again maybe Peter won’t, NOT EVEN GOD KNOWS FOR SURE. Almost sounds like blasphemy, doesn’t it? It is blasphemy.
To argue that when God prophesies, states, and intends that someone do a particular thing, that the person is still at liberty because of his supposed free will, to not do what God has said, is absurdity on the highest level. Yet this IS what the theory of free will demands.
The fact that God has a foreknowledge of everything proves that free will is an impossibility, as true free will could alter the future and therefore God could not have an absolute and true knowledge of the future.
It is idiocy to state that man has a free will that is not made or caused to do as it does, and yet state that God knows in advance the only possible choice that a person must make.
How can one believe that if God states that a person will make choice A, that he is nonetheless still at liberty to make choice B? Let me restate that: Can God say that you WILL make choice A, but you can make choice B?
Can God say that such and such, WILL happen but that it doesn’t need to happen? The disciples WILL forsake and deny Christ, but they have a free choice NOT to forsake and deny Him? God knows in advance that something WILL be a certain way, and yet it doesn’t have to be that way?
Not only does the theory of free will demand that man be able to think uncaused thoughts and perform uncaused tasks, but that he can in fact, do these uncaused things contrary to and in opposition to God’s preordained stated plan and purpose.
He must be blind indeed, who cannot or will not see that such a haughty presumption lifts such an one’s ego to that of a veritable "god’ in his own heart and mind.
GOD USES OUR STUPID WISDOM TO SHOW US OUR FOLLY
Before conversion Peter thought he possessed free will:
"Peter answered and said unto Him, Though all men shall be offended because of you, YET WILL I NEVER BE OFFENDED" (Matt. 26:33).
Famous last words.
Jesus responded that Peter had no more freedom of the will to stick by such a statement than a donkey:
"Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, YOU SHALL DENY ME thrice" (Ver. 34).
Peter again responds from the pinnacle of his presumed free will and CORRECTS Jesus to His face:
"Peter said unto Him, Though I should DIE WITH THEE, YET WILL I NOT DENY THEE. Likewise also said ALL THE DISCIPLES" (Ver. 35).
And the rest is history. When Peter was confronted the third time we read this:
"Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I KNOW NOT THE MAN. And immediately the cock crew… And he went out, and wept bitterly" (Matt. 26:74 & 75b). Free will?
What about all of the other disciples who also thought they possessed this power of free will and self-determinism?
"But all this was done, that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then ALL THE DISCIPLES FORSOOK HIM, AND FLED" (Matt. 26:56).
Free will? FREE will? FREE WILL? Where? If you still believe man has a will that is "free" from external and internal causes, beyond his control, then your arguments are not with me, but with God’s Word.
I guess this enough for now to get the conversation going. Thanks
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/21/2008 5:22:08 PM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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Hello Everyone;
I've just spent the better part of the day reading through this thread so I hope you don't mind if I throw in my two cents worth.
After reading through the back and forth, give and take, there is something that kept coming to mind, something that kept bugging me. The OP was questioning our will vs. God's will and the discussion has taken off from there. From what I gather there is some debate here as to whether or not we actually have the free will to accept God's gift of salvation or if it is God himself giving us that will, or supplanting our will if I may use that phrase.
What keeps bugging me is this; Conquered, you made the following statement, "God does see down through the corridors of time, but in that seeing he also saw himself intervening in the lives of men to bring glory to himself." Now I think we can all agree that the whole redemption plan is for God's glory, to bring him honor, glory and praise. So here lies the problem. If God intervenes and supplants my will how does that bring glory to God? Love not given freely is no love at all. If I am "forced" to accept God by no will or choice of my own how does that bring glory to God?
The subject of Job has been brought up a few times so I would like to address him as well. In the first chapter of Job we see where Satan is challenging God saying that the only reason that Job worships Him is because God has blessed him beyond measure;
Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing? "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. "But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."
(Job 1:9-11 NASB)
If, as has been stated here that the only reason we "choose" God is because He makes us, or forces us, then why did Satan not challenge God on this matter rather than on blessings? Why did Satan not tell God that the only reason Job fears God is because God caused him to?
Also, the conversion of Paul has been suggested numerous times to support this view. Somehow the conclusion has been drawn that there is no "free will" on Paul's part accepting Jesus as Lord. Somehow we go from A to Z and don't look at the letters in between. It is said that Paul is blinded and then he is told what he will do. But this in no way shows that Paul at that moment believed in Jesus. In fact I'm not sure that he did.
The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank. Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." And the Lord said to him, "Get up and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might regain his sight."
(Act 9:7-12 NASB)
The text states that the Lord told Ananias in a vision about Saul and that he was praying. I'm sure he was praying about what had happened. Paul had 3 days of fasting to pray upon what he had experienced. I believe that he came to the realization during those 3 days that he was wrong. He had just seen Jesus, the one he had denounced and persecuted. He was now faced with the truth.
I can go through life believing that 2 + 2 = 5 but when someone sits down with me and takes 2 sticks and adds them to 2 other sticks and shows me the truth, that there are only 4 sticks and not 5 I will then believe that 2 + 2 = 4 and not 5. Not because they imposed their will upon mine but rather because they confronted me with the truth and I understood their truth.
This is also backed up by scripture in the parable of the sower and the seeds.
"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.' "But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. "For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. "Hear then the parable of the sower. "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
(Mat 13:13-23 NASB)
The Jews did not hear nor did they understand because THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES. It doesn't say that God closed their eyes. It further states that "otherwise they would see.." So their understanding or lack of is based on their effort. The one whom seed was sown on the good soil is the one who understood the truth presented to him. Yes God drew him in, presented him with the truth, and he understood it. No where does it state that God caused him to understand the truth.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/21/2008 6:32:56 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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Conquered
quote:
First, we don't know the number, only God knows. God will say to some, "Welcome into the joy of your master" and to others "Depart from me, for I NEVER KNEW you."
Yet you do say that there is a number, and I say that there isn't. Yes He will tell some to depart. The ones who chose not to believe in the only begotten Son of God, and they chose out of their own free will to do so. It is not because they were never meant to, because they weren't predestined to.
quote:
I keep coming back to this point, but what you are suggesting is that the love of God will run out once He reaches that preset number.
quote:
You mean as you suggest when you say that God's love cannot overcome those who would reject him? Doesn't God's love then extinguish the moment I choose against him? Does the damned in hell receive his love?
God's love never runs out for his chosen, for it will last an eternity.
You see, this is exactly my point. You are saying, you not me, are saying that Gods love is only for His chosen. There is no love for anyone who He did not choose ahead of time. This is what YOU ARE SAYING, not me. I say He loves all mankind, and gives us all an opportunity to receive His offer of salvation through belief in Jesus Christ.
quote:
What you are suggesting is that His grace is really not so abundant, because it does not extend to anyone He did not predestine to receive it.
quote:
You mean infinitely abundant as would be the case in universalism?
Does that answer my question. Do you believe His grace runs out at the last person He chose ahead of time, or not. This is an important question, I say His grace is, yes, infinitely abundant, offered to all men, through His Son Jesus, which we are free to accept or not. If we choose to accept, we receive salvation, if we choose to decline, we in turn choose condemnation. But He does not make us choose, He lets us choose.
quote:
What then happens to all those lost souls who had no choice or chance in the matter?
quote:
What happens to those he knows will be lost because he will allow them to chose against him with limited information? What choice did they really have if they cannot really see their danger or believe that the consequences of their actions or see the hell that awaits their choice is infinitely horrific?
They choose against Him, so you know what happens to them. But yet again, you did not answer my question, which you have a habit of doing.
quote:
Are they in turn sent to hell, even though they may have chosen to follow God. Or are you just saying that God only predestined those whom He knew would eventually come to faith.
quote:
Well, since at best, I would only be making a decision based on limited information (for no one has been shown the horrors of hell or the slendors of heaven, the ugliness of the devil or the beauty of a Risen Christ face to face) how does this really change the picture you've painted?
And yet again you fail to answer a question. And we have enough information in the bible to make an informed decision on how hell will be or heaven will be, that they do exist, and that there is a penalty for sin, so that is no excuse for the choice at hand.
quote:
If this is true, again why not just cut to the chase and only create those who would believe. Why waste all this time and energy creating people who would never come to faith. Why not just never let those be born and only allow life to the chosen few.
My question is, what would then be the point?
quote:
What's the point then in having a so-called free choice if that choice isn't free at all because it is based on very limited information? I mean why create anyone at all if he knew that I would freely reject him based on only a partial knowledge of the full reality?
You see SbG your view can't dodge your scenario either.
The point is that God saw a greater glory on the other side of sin. He magnifies himself through it all, through allowing a world like ours to exist so that his great glory might be displayed to all.
Are we debating here or are we just trying to force each other into submission with an obscene amount of questions.
And yes God did see a greater amount of glory on the other side of sin, but where is the glory in only allowing a few who were chosen ahead of time , who had no choice to come to God, and be set free from that life of sin. If it isn't our choice to bet set free, where is the glory in that for God. If He doesn't let us choose to ask Him into our lives and free us from this bondage, but makes us when the time is right, which He determined ahead of time, and gives us no choice to do, where my friend is the glory in that?
quote:
The answer is, because we are free to live this life any way we see fit. Whether or not we come into belief is wholly up to us.
quote:
If it is wholly up to us two things happens:
1. We would save ourselves, so grace perishes on account of works.
2. No one would be saved because all would choose sin as all are hopelessly in bondage to it until freed by the Holy Spirit.
I never said we could save ourselves, only Jesus can save us. What I continue to say is that we have to choose to believe in the one who can save us.
And I have chosen to believe in Him, instead of living in bondage to sin, so your theory was just shot down.
quote:
" And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely."
it does not say And whosoever God wills, but whosoever wills. To me this means it is by our will, because if God was instilling that will in us, it would then become, by His will.
quote:
Then we have a contradiction....
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. -Romans 9:16
Whosoever wills docome, but these have a desire given by God to will!
You are really good at dodging questions, by answering with questions.
I agree with you, all men do have a desire given by God to know Him. But only a few, henceforth the few spoken of who will enter into heaven, act out on that desire, and take it from desire to know God to a personal relationship with God.
It tells us in the bible that all the proof that there is a God is seen in His creation, so we wouldn't be making a decision on limited knowledge if we chose not to believe.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/21/2008 6:58:13 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
SbG,
You have nothing to apologize for and there was no offense taken at all.
quote:
You see, I believe that He wants all men to believe, but He will not make us.
Well, you've read my arguments about Paul's conversion and those in the Book of Acts. But how about John the Baptist? We learn from Scripture that he was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb. How does that reconcile with your views?
You have been speaking of some who were chosen by God specifically to do great thing on behalf of the kingdom. Just because He chose, John and Paul, and a few others does not mean He chose all of us ahead of time who will follow Him.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/21/2008 7:05:12 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
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