|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 10:55:19 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3110
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
The main premise of the argument is that existence requires cause. No wayward1, that's not what I view as the main "premise". God exists and He requires no cause! The main premise is that any and every event with a beginning requires a cause adequate for the effect. If the universe has a beginning (which appears to be the majority consensus among cosmologists) then it must have logically been caused. Now, if you would like to present a real example of something with a beginning which was not caused, then we can talk further. Otherwise, our discussion is rapidly coming to a close.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 11:13:58 AM
|
|
|
SamSpick
Posts: 160
Joined: 12/13/2005
From: England
Status: offline
|
quote:
If the universe has a beginning (which appears to be the majority consensus among cosmologists) then it must have logically been caused.
What exactly do you mean by the word "caused" in this respect?
_____________________________
Of all your limitations, the greatest are the ones you don't even know about.
We cannot be judged guilty for our deviation from the alien moral code of our conqueror.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 11:36:43 AM
|
|
|
SamSpick
Posts: 160
Joined: 12/13/2005
From: England
Status: offline
|
Theo_book,
My initial response is that the separation of space and time, with time being infinite, is reminiscent of old Newtonian thinking. According to Einstein's rather successful theories, space and time are inextricably intertwined and one cannot exist independently of the other. So if you were to designate one as infinite, so must you the other, which according to the physicist Stephen Hawking (not to mention some philosophical arguments from such as Kant) doesn't really work. Would you like me to abandon my acceptance of these principles for the purpose of further discussion?
_____________________________
Of all your limitations, the greatest are the ones you don't even know about.
We cannot be judged guilty for our deviation from the alien moral code of our conqueror.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 12:20:42 PM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SamSpick
Theo_book,
My initial response is that the separation of space and time, with time being infinite, is reminiscent of old Newtonian thinking. According to Einstein's rather successful theories, space and time are inextricably intertwined and one cannot exist independently of the other. So if you were to designate one as infinite, so must you the other, which according to the physicist Stephen Hawking (not to mention some philosophical arguments from such as Kant) doesn't really work. Would you like me to abandon my acceptance of these principles for the purpose of further discussion?
I think the real problem is that scientists insist on thinking what "IS" is what must be what "WAS."
I agree that in our present cosmological circumstance, time and space most certainly are intertwined. That does NOT say they are dependently so.
Time does not need space for the function of duration. Space DOES need time for the function of dimension. It seems to me that the dependent necessarily must follow the independent. Time, first; then that which is dependent upon time. I do not say Time CAUSED space, but rather it allows for it. Space, however, does no such thing for time, because it is not necessary for the function of time.
So the "cause" function follows the concept of "dependency will bring dependents."
I do not believe scientists are consistent when they insist both that there was originally a "vast emptiness" while contradictorily claiming "Nature abhors a vacuum." This alone would suffice to lead one to the "no dimension" concept of space, ergo, no space.
< Message edited by theo_book -- 7/16/2008 4:35:40 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 12:30:34 PM
|
|
|
SamSpick
Posts: 160
Joined: 12/13/2005
From: England
Status: offline
|
quote:
Time does not need space for the function of duration. Space DOES need time for the function of dimension.
What if I were to suggest that the function of duration requires space just as much as time? Afterall, without space, there can be no matter/energy and without matter/energy there is no way for duration to exist.
_____________________________
Of all your limitations, the greatest are the ones you don't even know about.
We cannot be judged guilty for our deviation from the alien moral code of our conqueror.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 12:49:36 PM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SamSpick
quote:
Time does not need space for the function of duration. Space DOES need time for the function of dimension.
What if I were to suggest that the function of duration requires space just as much as time? Afterall, without space, there can be no matter/energy and without matter/energy there is no way for duration to exist.
I would ask you if you consider God to be matter, or energy? I would then point out that since energy and matter can be controverted, He is probably neither.
I do not see the dependency of duration on time/space, as it requires no provision for dimension. But we can save that one for another time if you wish.
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 12:59:06 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3110
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
What exactly do you mean by the word "caused" in this respect? What exactly do you mean by "in this respect"? The definitions of cause are straightforward!
CAUSE (verb) = to bring about, result in, or be the reason for.
CAUSE (noun) = a person or thing that acts, happens, or exists in such a way that some specific thing happens as a result; the producer of an effect.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 1:16:06 PM
|
|
|
wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The main premise of the argument is that existence requires cause. No wayward1, that's not what I view as the main "premise". God exists and He requires no cause! The main premise is that any and every event with a beginning requires a cause adequate for the effect. If the universe has a beginning (which appears to be the majority consensus among cosmologists) then it must have logically been caused. Now, if you would like to present a real example of something with a beginning which was not caused, then we can talk further. Otherwise, our discussion is rapidly coming to a close.
I've said my piece really so we can close the door on this issue for now if you wish. I'll be left wondering why so many of my points went without responses though. I've put quite a bit of time and effort into this thread, mostly for you, and I've ignored your persistent nastiness. If I didn't know better I'd swear you elected to declare "nonsense" about any challenging thing I wrote, so that it would appear as though you were disregarding my points because of their weakness vice disregarding them because of your inability, or unwillingness to address them properly.
Either way, as a point of debrief now that we are "rapidly coming to a close", this is the conclusion any thoughtful debate partner will come to about you if you insist on your aggressive and condescending tone. You behave as though you think your own personal certainty gives you carte blanche authority to be smug. Sir, it does not give you such authority and behaving as though it does takes from your worthiness as a debate partner. I told you I meant to strengthen your position on the matter but you would not allow it. Your position remains weak by your own choice.
Now I'll happily accept any personal points of debrief you might have for me. Your disdain for my opinions is obvious. I open the floor for your opinion of my debate style only, since I have offered an opinion of yours.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 1:46:00 PM
|
|
|
SamSpick
Posts: 160
Joined: 12/13/2005
From: England
Status: offline
|
theo,
I would answer that God is beyond such concepts of matter and energy and utterly ineffable.
I think your idea of duration requires that something of matter/energy exists. Ie, if nothing of matter/energy exists, I ask how can anything be said to endure or have duration? And then I ask, if there is no duration, how can we say that time exists?
_____________________________
Of all your limitations, the greatest are the ones you don't even know about.
We cannot be judged guilty for our deviation from the alien moral code of our conqueror.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 1:49:17 PM
|
|
|
SamSpick
Posts: 160
Joined: 12/13/2005
From: England
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
What exactly do you mean by the word "caused" in this respect? What exactly do you mean by "in this respect"? The definitions of cause are straightforward!
CAUSE (verb) = to bring about, result in, or be the reason for.
CAUSE (noun) = a person or thing that acts, happens, or exists in such a way that some specific thing happens as a result; the producer of an effect.
Ok, so what exactly do you mean by "to bring about" and to "act" in this context?
_____________________________
Of all your limitations, the greatest are the ones you don't even know about.
We cannot be judged guilty for our deviation from the alien moral code of our conqueror.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 2:33:47 PM
|
|
|
SamSpick
Posts: 160
Joined: 12/13/2005
From: England
Status: offline
|
drmark,
As an aside, I just wondered, if for some reason you came to accept that a belief in God is not a logical one, would it affect your faith at all? Do you need the hallmark of "logic" to believe in God? Is that the issue?
_____________________________
Of all your limitations, the greatest are the ones you don't even know about.
We cannot be judged guilty for our deviation from the alien moral code of our conqueror.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 4:34:14 PM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SamSpick
theo,
I would answer that God is beyond such concepts of matter and energy and utterly ineffable.
I think your idea of duration requires that something of matter/energy exists. Ie, if nothing of matter/energy exists, I ask how can anything be said to endure or have duration? And then I ask, if there is no duration, how can we say that time exists?
I apologize. I thought I had made it more clear than evidently I had.
My point was that God, being spirit, always existed, making duration necessary; and demonstrating no need of dimension. But duration does not provide evidence of energy/matter. It only provides a platform for the creation of energy/matter, which God seemingly obliged.
That accounts for time always existing;
It accounts for energy/coming into existence;
It accounts for the cycular function of time, so as to eliminate any necessity for a cause/effect routine.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 4:56:14 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3110
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
Now I'll happily accept any personal points of debrief you might have for me. Well, I do admire your constant happiness, wayward1. Perhaps it's your personal philosophy?
Honestly, I had no idea we were in a debate requiring debriefing. Please forgive my naivete. Welcome to the forums and I wish you well in your future competition!
quote:
Ok, so what exactly do you mean by "to bring about" and to "act" in this context? Sam, I'm almost certain English is your first language. What are you trying to get at?
quote:
As an aside, I just wondered, if for some reason you came to accept that a belief in God is not a logical one, would it affect your faith at all? Do you need the hallmark of "logic" to believe in God? Is that the issue? How is it possible for someone to possess a logical belief and then, all of the sudden, it becomes illogical? I don't see "logic" as the hallmark of saving faith. Rather, I see illogic as the hallmark of damning atheism!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 8:25:44 PM
|
|
|
wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Now I'll happily accept any personal points of debrief you might have for me. Well, I do admire your constant happiness, wayward1. Perhaps it's your personal philosophy?
Thank you. It's effortless.
quote:
Honestly, I had no idea we were in a debate requiring debriefing. Please forgive my naivete. Welcome to the forums and I wish you well in your future competition!
It didn't require debriefing. I opted to offer you a final point you could take away from all of our interaction.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SamSpick
As an aside, I just wondered, if for some reason you came to accept that a belief in God is not a logical one, would it affect your faith at all? Do you need the hallmark of "logic" to believe in God? Is that the issue?
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
How is it possible for someone to possess a logical belief and then, all of the sudden, it becomes illogical? I don't see "logic" as the hallmark of saving faith. Rather, I see illogic as the hallmark of damning atheism!
You've answered SamSpicks question despite efforts to avoid it. He didn't ask you what would happen if your "logical belief in God actually became illogical". He asked you what would happen if you came to consider it to be illogical to believe in God.
They are very different things. Another poster openly admitted that he found it utterly illogical to believe in God but that his faith was NOT challenged by this fact. You could say the same thing but as I stated before, you revealed your real feelings on this matter with your assertion that "illogic is the hallmark of damning atheism". You DO feel it's necessary to arrive at conclusions logically.
drmark, I think you are a very intellectually honest person on many levels. My guess is that you are very successful in your day to day life and probably highly educated. I suspect also though that you struggle internally with conflicting forces for which the only seemingly suitable response is to lash out in intellectual assault against anything or anyone that appears contrary to your hard earned faith in God.
I think you have built up walls around your faith that are not really required of you. I could be wrong of course. That goes without saying, but your words are pregnant with an overabundance of certainty; the kind of certainty that only comes from fear of doubt. Doubt is not your enemy, but unwarranted self-assuredness can get anyone in trouble.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 10:34:04 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3110
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
You've answered SamSpicks question despite efforts to avoid it. He didn't ask you what would happen if your "logical belief in God actually became illogical". He asked you what would happen if you came to consider it to be illogical to believe in God.
They are very different things. Well, that's a pretty illogical way to view logic! We can just consider something illogical and it becomes so? This is past nonsense and you'll need to waste someone else's time, wayward1!
quote:
Another poster openly admitted that he found it utterly illogical to believe in God but that his faith was NOT challenged by this fact. You could say the same thing Then I would be lying!
quote:
you revealed your real feelings on this matter with your assertion that "illogic is the hallmark of damning atheism". You DO feel it's necessary to arrive at conclusions logically. I stated my "real feelings" quite clearly - you chose to distort them! Logic is NOT the hallmark of saving faith. Illogic IS the hallmark of damning atheism. You see, wayward1, I don't need logic to believe in God, but the atheist needs illogic to deny Him.
quote:
drmark, I think you are a very intellectually honest person on many levels. My guess is that you are very successful in your day to day life and probably highly educated. I suspect also though that you struggle internally with conflicting forces for which the only seemingly suitable response is to lash out in intellectual assault against anything or anyone that appears contrary to your hard earned faith in God. Do you charge for psycho-analysis by the hour?
quote:
I could be wrong of course. You have already been, on many counts!
quote:
Doubt is not your enemy, but unwarranted self-assuredness can get anyone in trouble. Finally, something we can agree on! Indeed, my assurance comes from the Holy Spirit, not my own feeble self - Romans 9:1.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/16/2008 10:54:50 PM
|
|
|
wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Well, that's a pretty illogical way to view logic! We can just consider something illogical and it becomes so? This is past nonsense and you'll need to waste someone else's time, wayward1!
I'm not asserting that what we consider something to be determines whether that's really what it is. I find it to be you who is of a mind to think one's opinion of a matter establishes the truth of the matter. But the thread is about everyone's opinion about whether or not belief in God is logical. SamSpick asked you if you thought it would change anything about your faith if your "opinion regarding the logic of belief in God were to change. It is currently your OPINION that it IS logical. It could possibly be your opinion one day that it is NOT logical. SamSpick asked if that occurrence would change anything about your faith, or if you think your faith hinges on it remaining logical in your mind to believe in God... Again, I think we have his answer.
quote:
Then I would be lying!
So it would challenge your faith? Again, we have his answer.
quote:
I stated my "real feelings" quite clearly - you chose to distort them! Logic is NOT the hallmark of saving faith. Illogic IS the hallmark of damning atheism. You see, wayward1, I don't need logic to believe in God, but the atheist needs illogic to deny Him.
On this account I suppose I'll simply agree. There are so many wonderful reasons for faith that one must often fully embrace something very much like illogic to deny oneself of it.
quote:
Do you charge for psycho-analysis by the hour?
Good you're joking with me. Now we're getting somewhere. We can be friends and discuss this for a long time. It is valuable to me even if we never agree. And no, this analysis is free for you.
quote:
You have already been, on many counts!
I'm very sorry to have missed it. Could you list them please so i can clarify. If I was wrong, I would dearly appreciate an opportunity to learn. I take great pride in my opinions, and I do not take it lightly when honorable men consider them to be wrong.
quote:
Finally, something we can agree on! Indeed, my assurance comes from the Holy Spirit, not my own feeble self - Romans 9:1.
God created a feeble thing? Why bother? I give you for more credit than to consider you feeble. Your mind and ONLY your mind are responsible for everything you think, period. And don't ever forget it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/17/2008 12:49:14 AM
|
|
|
wayward1
Posts: 231
Joined: 7/15/2008
Status: offline
|
Since you told me I had been wrong many times I perused this thread to see where you had informed me of my opinion being "wrong". I found one such instance here:
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
... God exists and He requires no cause! The main premise is that any and every event with a beginning requires a cause adequate for the effect. If the universe has a beginning (which appears to be the majority consensus among cosmologists) then it must have logically been caused.
We disagree on this point. You and I cannot both be correct. You are certain you are correct. I am certain I have no good reason to agree with you. I am not certain of my correctness, only certain that there is no sufficient grounds for agreeing with you.
I am only able to work in pure absolutes of logic. If I were to attempt to agree with you I would stop myself because of the question that follows.
Why (in your opinion) is there a God?
However you answer that question (if you can) the answer for "why is there something instead of nothing" would be exactly the same. Most theists would answer that there is no "why" for God. God just is. That's a real good answer for the universe too. It just is.
If "logic" is able to dictate that God doesn't need a why, then it is equally able to dictate that the universe doesn't need one either.
quote:
Now, if you would like to present a real example of something with a beginning which was not caused, then we can talk further. Otherwise, our discussion is rapidly coming to a close.
As I have stated previously though, the universe is not thought to have had a beginning. It is thought to have always been, in one form or another. Matter has always been... I'm sorry if this turns your logical basis for faith on its head. In light of recently revealed information about you coming to regard belief in God as illogical, I am not surprised you resist so ardently.
Again, I cannot be certain that I am correct that there has always been something instead of nothing, but I can be certain enough that there has not ever been a single event witnessed by any human that would give validity to an argument for magical production of matter. Still, I reserve judgment and resolve myself to accept the fact that that question may never be answered. Logically though, it is simply not ok to respond to questions that may never be answered with magical answers that may never be questioned.
< Message edited by wayward1 -- 7/17/2008 2:08:26 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/17/2008 3:24:33 AM
|
|
|
SamSpick
Posts: 160
Joined: 12/13/2005
From: England
Status: offline
|
quote:
I apologize. I thought I had made it more clear than evidently I had.
My point was that God, being spirit, always existed, making duration necessary;
It's OK. My belief, as I also not so clearly said, is that God is atemporal (which is what I meant by saying 'God is beyond such concepts of matter and energy and utterly ineffable.') and so to say that God has always existed is completely meaningless. God has no duration because God is not subject to time IMO. On this basis, I consider that the rest of your progression is redundant.
_____________________________
Of all your limitations, the greatest are the ones you don't even know about.
We cannot be judged guilty for our deviation from the alien moral code of our conqueror.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/17/2008 3:36:22 AM
|
|
|
SamSpick
Posts: 160
Joined: 12/13/2005
From: England
Status: offline
|
quote:
You've answered SamSpicks question despite efforts to avoid it. He didn't ask you what would happen if your "logical belief in God actually became illogical". He asked you what would happen if you came to consider it to be illogical to believe in God.
They are very different things. Another poster openly admitted that he found it utterly illogical to believe in God but that his faith was NOT challenged by this fact. You could say the same thing but as I stated before, you revealed your real feelings on this matter with your assertion that "illogic is the hallmark of damning atheism". You DO feel it's necessary to arrive at conclusions logically.
Spot on wayward1. It seems that drmark must have his belief in God validated by human wisdom. He cannot sustain his belief via means of faith alone. Also, since he cannot allow his belief in God to die, he makes illogic to appear logical as best he can. Deep down he knows this and the conflict within is the source of his hostile personality.
_____________________________
Of all your limitations, the greatest are the ones you don't even know about.
We cannot be judged guilty for our deviation from the alien moral code of our conqueror.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/17/2008 3:59:14 AM
|
|
|
SamSpick
Posts: 160
Joined: 12/13/2005
From: England
Status: offline
|
quote:
How is it possible for someone to possess a logical belief and then, all of the sudden, it becomes illogical? I don't see "logic" as the hallmark of saving faith. Rather, I see illogic as the hallmark of damning atheism!
Well, any logical progression is only as valid as the premises upon which it is based. So, if new information is discovered, our logically derived conclusions can and often do change.
For example, I used to believe, as you presently do, that "God acted to create the universe." However, upon realising that the act of creation (just like any act) involves a change of state and that a change of state requires *time* to occur, I realised how illogical this assertion is. It effectively requires that time exist "before" time was created, which is absurd. Another fault is that it also requires that God be subject to time, which He isn't.
I now prefer to avoid the "creation" word altogether and say instead that God has a relationship with the universe which cannot be expressed in human terms of cause and effect, and by extension cannot be logically deduced. I'm happy with that.
< Message edited by SamSpick -- 7/17/2008 5:45:13 AM >
_____________________________
Of all your limitations, the greatest are the ones you don't even know about.
We cannot be judged guilty for our deviation from the alien moral code of our conqueror.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/17/2008 7:56:28 AM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
(wayward1) drmark, I think you are a very intellectually honest person on many levels.
I remember it just a little differently.
In post #73 - To the question quote:
: Also, what makes you so convinced that the universe is a "creation" at all?
(drmark responded) Surely you're familiar with the Kalam Cosmological Argument. I personally have never seen an effective logical rebuttal!
Yet when I requested his input on a question I had about the KCA, I received this response -
quote:
(theo)Comment?
(drmark)(post #107) Not really. You and Beebe seem to enjoy promulgating esoteric philosophical discussion. I just stick with the facts.
Now we are told drmark gets his assurance from the Holy Spirit.
quote:
(drmark) Indeed, my assurance comes from the Holy Spirit, not my own feeble self - Romans 9:1.
So are you saying the Holy Spirit guided you to the Kalam cosmological Argument to convince you the universe is a creation, but when the KCA was questioned, the Holy Spirit abandoned you to "JUST THE FACTS?"
Doesn't that tell you the KCA may not be factual at all, but IN FACT, a flawed philosophy instead?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/17/2008 8:03:35 AM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SamSpick
quote:
How is it possible for someone to possess a logical belief and then, all of the sudden, it becomes illogical? I don't see "logic" as the hallmark of saving faith. Rather, I see illogic as the hallmark of damning atheism!
Well, any logical progression is only as valid as the premises upon which it is based. So, if new information is discovered, our logically derived conclusions can and often do change.
For example, I used to believe, as you presently do, that "God acted to create the universe." However, upon realising that the act of creation (just like any act) involves a change of state and that a change of state requires *time* to occur, I realised how illogical this assertion is. It effectively requires that time exist "before" time was created, which is absurd. Another fault is that it also requires that God be subject to time, which He isn't.
I now prefer to avoid the "creation" word altogether and say instead that God has a relationship with the universe which cannot be expressed in human terms of cause and effect, and by extension cannot be logically deduced. I'm happy with that.
Sam; If I understand your post it seems you believe that when God created the sun, moon tools for men to measure time, you are assuming he created time itself. Do I misread you?
Time was not created; Only the tools by which men measure time, and seasons. That may be why you conclude some of the things about the creation in time that seem problematic.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/17/2008 8:45:14 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3110
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
But the thread is about everyone's opinion about whether or not belief in God is logical. Sorry, wayward1, but I have reread the OP and several of the initial responses and there is no mention whatsoever about "everyone's opinion"! I can see now that you have hijacked this thread to provide a bully pulpit for your own personal philosophy of relativism and I will serve as an unwitting accomplice no more. Have a nice day.
quote:
God created a feeble thing? Why bother? I give you for more credit than to consider you feeble. Your mind and ONLY your mind are responsible for everything you think, period. And don't ever forget it. Let me "debrief" you with one last point of Truth. God created Adam and Eve in a very good state, far from feeble, but with a free will to make choices. They chose to disobey their Creator and everyone since (including you and me) has also fallen short of God's glorious purpose for humanity. I bother because God has lovingly shown His grace to me by lifting me from this feeble life of sin. So it is no longer "my mind and ONLY my mind" that is responsible for who I am. I have the mind of Christ - 1 Cor 2:16. You, wayward1, may also have the mind of Christ, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. And don't ever forget it!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/17/2008 9:31:32 AM
|
|
|
SamSpick
Posts: 160
Joined: 12/13/2005
From: England
Status: offline
|
Hi again theo,
quote:
Sam; If I understand your post it seems you believe that when God created the sun, moon tools for men to measure time, you are assuming he created time itself. Do I misread you?
I don't believe that God "created" time for the reasons already stated, ie, "the act of creation (just like any act) involves a change of state and a change of state requires *time* to occur." The upshot being that time cannot be said to be created by anything in the causal sense. However, science tells us that there was a first moment of time none-the-less.
Therefore:
quote:
I now prefer to avoid the "creation" word altogether and say instead that God has a relationship with the universe which cannot be expressed in human terms of cause and effect, and by extension cannot be logically deduced. I'm happy with that.
_____________________________
Of all your limitations, the greatest are the ones you don't even know about.
We cannot be judged guilty for our deviation from the alien moral code of our conqueror.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 7/17/2008 11:23:38 AM
|
|
|
hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
Status: offline
|
quote:
a change of state requires *time*
Yes, but consider this:
Time requires a change of state. (Or perhaps a hypothetical static observer who can make "nonsalient" distinction between two identical states. I suggest He coudl do this by marking MOMENTS by SPEAKING -- or through some act that originated only from Himself that would thereby arbitrarily designate one state as distinct from another named state. That is, the distinction between static, identical states would be IN NAME ONLY.)
It is a paradox.
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
