RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (Full Version)

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drmark -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (6/12/2008 5:38:26 PM)

quote:

In this case, you would only be a Christian in word, not in reality.
Or as James put it - faith without works is dead.



hellohellohi -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (6/13/2008 8:57:18 AM)

galadriel,

You can do logic within Christianity, but in order to get there you must undergo a "leap of faith." Logic will not get you there. No one will be saved by propositions or syllogism.

what do you think?



Kath -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (6/16/2008 5:57:50 PM)

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modu -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (6/29/2008 1:45:59 PM)

Belief in God is never logical. I repeat never logical. It is only spiritual. God is a Spirit. His divine expressions are Spiritual, though witnessed in physical. No human heart can understand His ways through logic. Your heart must be receptive to His Spiritual realm to follow His leading and understanding.
www.vmodu.com



drmark -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (6/30/2008 8:43:30 AM)

quote:

No one will be saved by propositions
Romans 10:9 sounds like a proposition to me!



drmark -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (6/30/2008 8:58:27 AM)

quote:

Belief in God is never logical. I repeat never logical.
What is your understanding and application of 1 Peter 3:15, modu?

quote:

It is only spiritual. God is a Spirit.
So do you think it is illogical to believe in spirit beings, such as God?

quote:

No human heart can understand His ways through logic.
No human heart can fully understand His ways regardless - Isaiah 55:9 (I hope my memory's correct).

quote:

Your heart must be receptive to His Spiritual realm to follow His leading and understanding.
So how would an unsaved person ever be receptive to salvation?



Leo71 -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (6/30/2008 12:40:53 PM)

Someone likely already covered this, but I'm going to add my own conclusions here anyway, just in case. Alright, Is Belief in God Logical? I will say that it most certainly is, regardless of which NAME you want to use in reference to the Creator of the whole universe and life itself.

What matters is that you approach the subject from a real logical standpoint. By that, I mean you can't just start rambling off a bunch of scientific jargon and ever-changing theories/hypotheses, without attesting to what is truly logical about life and the universe as a whole. Life cannot come into existence without a living source, first of all, which we've all witnessed ourselves on countless occasions, so it's logical to say that life comes from life. As far as the universe is concerned, you cannot merely assume that it happens to be eternal and self-existing, yet with no sentient life/infinite knowledge and/or wisdom of its own having been responsible for all complex organisms that we know of today, including humankind.

Rather, it is logical to believe that God is the Uncaused Cause of everything that exists, which includes the universe as a whole. The Big Bang crowd has postulated that something exploded at some point, then expanded and set off a long, complex sequence of events that eventually led to all living things and otherwise coming into existence. But if there was nothing eternal and self-existing there to bring together these energies, gases or whatever in the first place... it is highly illogical to assume that these things just popped into existence on their own, without the help of a super-intelligent and, yes, living entity (i.e God) at all.

Long story short: Yep. Belief in God is definitely logical.



hellohellohi -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (6/30/2008 2:46:55 PM)

Romans 10:
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Sure, you could say "Jesus is Lord" is a proposition. I was making a probably arcane point though that propositions won't save anyone. Notice it says confess with your mouth AND believe in your heart. Can belief be contained by a proposition or the utterance of a proposition? A proposition, I mean to say, is merely an element in an equation or a logical sequence of antecedent and consequent. Get it? I can only assume everyone is intelligent enough to see what I mean if you give it half a moment's consideration.

Now, continuing with this verse -- "Jesus is Lord" is a very interesting proposition in that it posits that a man was God and God was a man. This is a very striking claim, and I am not sure that it could be backed up by any antecedents.

To be more precise, when I say no one is saved by propositions, I mean except for the non-sequitur: "Jesus is Lord." To say that God came as a servant. To say that Jesus, begotten of God as God as the Word of God is the only word with which human ears need concern themselves is to say that one has not need of philosophy, logic, or argument -- if a word will suffice!

To say that "Jesus is Lord" is patently obvious is as heretical as saying that Joe-Bob, too, was God. If you forget that there was a possibility that we too could have been confronted not by the proposition "Jesus is Lord" but the man himself, then you are perhaps taking risks as a Christian. To say that it is patently obvious that this man also rose from the dead is to say that all men can conceive of may indeed be so.

However, to say these things, and believe them, you will be saved. This I say not because I can prove it but because I can't and I am willing to believe them anyway!

That was my point. Just because "Jesus" is Lord" has been written on paper somewhere doesn't put my chips in the bank. Redemption involves more than paper. That's what I meant by propositions. (However, if you are not bothered by the word, I don't mind letting you keep it. I can also admit that I was perhaps not very clear -- and you perhaps too clever.)



drmark -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/2/2008 10:28:22 AM)

quote:

Sure, you could say "Jesus is Lord" is a proposition.
No, that's a true fact. The proposition is that IF someone confesses His Lordship and believes in His Resurrection, s/he will be saved. That's also a true fact!



hellohellohi -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/2/2008 11:05:38 AM)

yeah

I think we are in agreement tho. My overall point is that, no, belief in God is not logical, because He cannot be arrived at as a conclusion from trivial antecedents.

However, if God is himself a fact, though not a trivial one, we will have found that we have come upon a different sense of the word "truth" or "fact."

God cannot be trivially true, because there is always a possibility of our denying Him -- for one cannot deny trivial facts! He is true, rather, in that He opposes lies, human sin.



drmark -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/3/2008 2:19:29 AM)

quote:

My overall point is that, no, belief in God is not logical, because He cannot be arrived at as a conclusion from trivial antecedents.
Then I must respectfully disagree! The universal law of causality can hardly be considered "trivial" and its logical conclusion is undeniable. Reality is an effect which must have been caused by the real uncaused First Cause. Infinite space requires an Omnipresent God. Infinite time requires an Eternal God. Infinite energy requires an Omnipotent God. Human sentience requires an Omniscient God. Those are NOT trivial antecedents!



hellohellohi -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/3/2008 8:47:18 AM)

quote:

Reality is an effect which must have been caused by the real uncaused First Cause.


That's rather sensible, but it doesn't have anything to do with Christianity as far as I can see. -- Besides that it does jive with the account "In the beginning..."

Oh, and I meant "trivial" as a good thing, as in "self-evident" or uncontroversial.

I agree, though, that looking at causation, one is always lead to ask, "well, what caused that? and then that? that?" recurring until one gives up at a "first cause" which we are unable to see behind.

So, I ought to give you that.

But then proceed from that to Jesus? Doubtful.

What do you think specifically about that?



drmark -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/4/2008 10:27:41 AM)

quote:

That's rather sensible, but it doesn't have anything to do with Christianity as far as I can see.
Then you need to re-read John 1 and Colossians 1 (sorry I don't have my Bible handy for specific verses) to improve your vision!

quote:

I agree, though, that looking at causation, one is always lead to ask, "well, what caused that? and then that? that?" recurring until one gives up at a "first cause" which we are unable to see behind.
Exactly why an infinite regression is illogical! There is nothing "to see behind" regarding the uncaused First Cause. He is that He is!

quote:

But then proceed from that to Jesus? Doubtful.

What do you think specifically about that?
I agree that the causality paradigm of classical apologetics is generally inadequate to lead specifically to Christ. However, when coupled with the evidentiary approach, it is exceedingly difficult to argue against the Triune God of Christianity as the one true reality!



Wskybtl -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/4/2008 10:42:35 PM)

I have studied for many years. Read everything I could get my hands on. Went to church. Talked with preachers, pastors, anyone who would tell me about this man who they call Jesus. I wanted to know Him. I had a few questions for Him. Things like:
Why are our loved ones still dieing, if you died for us?
Why are we still suffering, if you took our iniquity?
Who are you to die for us, when we can’t die for one of our loved ones?
I wanted to know this Jesus, soooo I decided my family and I would start at the beginning of the Bible, and we would do everything God said (if possible). And so it began.

Once we got to Deuteronomy, where we are told to “keep” His Commandments by wearing them, is where our lives changed. We did it, and we would put them on, take them off. Put them on again, take them off again. We just didn’t know. It seemed every preacher would tell us we are trying to earn our salvation.

After much thought, I figured, what if God does kill us because “we fell from grace?” Next thought was, so what, we are going to die anyway. Does God take our life when we die? Dead is dead, that’s the way I thought.

After some time, we decided to keep the commandments the way God said, and if God wanted to kill us over it, fine it didn’t matter. We would do as He said, no matter the consequences.

Today, over twenty years later, my best advise to anyone, everyone, is to put on God’s Commandments. We didn’t earn anything, God freely gave us His Son, His Word. Even if we fall from grace, His mercy is forever.

No book, no one, no place can show you things from the Bible that Jesus Himself will show those who love Him and keep His Commandments. Put on His words and learn to walk in Him. He tells us, if we remain in His words, we are His disciple indeed. Try it, I think, no, I know it is what we all need. Try God’s Commandments in Exodus 20 (Ten Commandments, Jesus’ in Matthew 5 (Sermon on the Mount) and the Holy Ghost’s in Revelation ( Jesus’ testimony), one or all of them. They are the seeds that will allow you to grow in Him.

You’ll have to be tough, they will laugh, scorn etc..

The Seed is The Word of God, you can always start there. Let Him take you from there. He is good at leading and protecting those who love Him and keep His Commandments even as He kept His Father’s. Put Him on. Remember His words are spirit, and they are life. I know that is some weird advice, but if you are up to it, give it a try. Learn to live by every word of God. The Father (OT), The Son (NT) and the Holy Ghost (after resurrection). From experience I speak. Although it isn’t easy, it is more than worth all the effort.

And one more hint. If there is a Scripture you are wanting to understand more, just print it, or write it, and keep it with you and He will revel it to you. That is called growing in The Word. He teaches through His Word.

I pray you will grow in His Word and most of all, find it as awesome has we have. May not be logical, but it works.



MrFribbles -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/4/2008 11:19:24 PM)

Wskybtl, I'm sorry, but you've been making this same point in most threads you have visited so far, and it just does not fit in this thread. Have you considered starting a thread about physically wearing Scripture?



hellohellohi -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/6/2008 9:39:37 AM)

quote:

However, when coupled with the evidentiary approach, it is exceedingly difficult to argue against the Triune God of Christianity as the one true reality!


Hello,

I'd like to know more about what this means.

I would say that it might be superficially easy to argue against God, but that there is little to NO sense in the things that non-believers say. I think man cannot approach the wisdom and truth of God through logic, syllogism, words, persuasion, or his own wisdom; thus, I believe the Truth is a negation of propositions -- the negation of all lies. So perhaps we agree rather well! I agree that phenomenological evidence might be brought to bear, if that's what you were referring to (just never heard your term "evidentiary approach") but I would also say it wouldn't have to. Supplying OUR (the believer's testimony) will never fully convince someone without God also working in their hearts.

So, yes, I agree it is actually hard-going to argue against God whenever it is rooted in sin. I've actually undertook a few roundabout secular approaches to proving or suggesting the exigency of belief in a Christan God. It's not that I don't think they are logical, they're just roundabout. I don't know if one can argue for God without relying on th etechnique of "questioning" for instance.

Later



drmark -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/6/2008 10:20:14 PM)

quote:

quote:

However, when coupled with the evidentiary approach, it is exceedingly difficult to argue against the Triune God of Christianity as the one true reality!
I'd like to know more about what this means.
I'm no expert on apologetics, but as I understand it, there are four basic methodologies which have been employed over the centuries to "defend the faith". The classical approach often incorporates the argument of causality as its centerpiece for "proving" God's existence. As you rightly point out, that may not directly lead one to the God of Christianity. Thus, further apologetics have been developed from legal or evidence-based methods to argue for the truth of Christianity. I am referring to that methodology as the "evidentiary approach", although it goes by other names as well.



SamSpick -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/11/2008 3:14:24 PM)

I've not seen anybody deduce logically the existence of a sentient creator of the universe. Therefore to answer the original question: No, belief in God is not logical.

However, the resultant value of any logical progression is both limited and determined by the premises with which one starts. In other words, limited knowledge/perception gives rise to limited conclusions. Furthermore, since a belief in a sentient creator is quite apparent amongst most if not all human civilisations, I would argue that a belief in God arises from something other than human reason alone. Ask yourself why so many people believe in God even though they can't rationalise it logically. Ultimately it is a matter of personal introspection for you alone to ponder and explore.



hellohellohi -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/11/2008 3:40:48 PM)

Good points Sam... I was wondering when you were going to find this thread. ;)



rcjames -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/11/2008 3:58:50 PM)

Belief in a Creator is a logical applicatioin. If there is a creation then there had to be a creator, just as there had to be a builder to build a house.

Believing in the concepts of the Christian faith is not at all a logical application.

To apply logic to the fact that the Creator of all this loved the humans that he created so much that he had his Son crucified and any human who believes this and makes His Son Lord of their life will live forever with the Creator in a place called Heaven; defies any application of logic.

Which is why it is called Faith.

Thanks
RC



SamSpick -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/11/2008 4:01:59 PM)

quote:

If there is a creation then there had to be a creator, just as there had to be a builder to build a house.

But if the creation is space-time itself, how can we speak of a causal agent of any kind? Also, what makes you so convinced that the universe is a "creation" at all?



Darion412 -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/12/2008 4:42:14 AM)

I'm not sure if the belief in God is "logical" or not, I guess the opinion varies with the individual. However that persons opinion doesn't change anything. According to Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God feels we are all without excuse rather one feels his existence is logical or not. So for the individuals sake, I dearly hope so.[:)]



drmark -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/12/2008 8:38:28 AM)

quote:

But if the creation is space-time itself, how can we speak of a causal agent of any kind? Also, what makes you so convinced that the universe is a "creation" at all?
Surely you're familiar with the Kalam Cosmological Argument. I personally have never seen an effective logical rebuttal!

quote:

God feels we are all without excuse rather one feels his existence is logical or not.
Exactly, Darion! God who made us logical knows that His existence is logical so we are all without excuse unless we choose to be illogical. And there are plenty of illogical agno-atheists out there whose "sakes" are in grave jeopardy from their own illogical self-centeredness.



SamSpick -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/12/2008 12:32:23 PM)

quote:


But if the creation is space-time itself, how can we speak of a causal agent of any kind? Also, what makes you so convinced that the universe is a "creation" at all?

Surely you're familiar with the Kalam Cosmological Argument. I personally have never seen an effective logical rebuttal!


Thanks drmark. As you have probably gathered from my earlier post, it is with step 2 of the The Kalam Cosmological Argument that I take issue. The reasoning for the selection of option a) 'that the universe was caused' seems rather dubious to me. I shall explain:

According to current scientific understanding, the universe of space-time had a beginning, a view which is in full agreement with KCA 1(a). However, since events as we understand them can only take place within the context of space-time, we must accept that there was a first event which occurred a finite amount of time in the past. Just like all events, the first event must have occurred within the context of space-time and furthermore, by definition, the first event cannot have a cause since a cause is of itself an event. On these grounds alone we must conclude that our universe of space-time was not caused. In summary: causality cannot have a cause.



drmark -> RE: Is Belief in God Logical? (7/12/2008 1:00:13 PM)

quote:

However, since events as we understand them can only take place within the context of space-time, we must accept that there was a first event.
No, this is an assumed presupposition, not a rebuttal of causality.

quote:

Just like all events, the first event must have occurred within the context of space-time and furthermore, by definition, the first event cannot have a cause since a cause is of itself an event.
Again, this is circular reasoning, not a rebuttal of causality.

quote:

On these grounds alone we must conclude that our universe of space-time was not caused. In summary: causality cannot have a cause.
On the grounds of presuppositions and circular reasoning? Illogical! In summary: Causality does not have a cause because the uncaused First Cause caused causality!



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