RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (Full Version)

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lightshineon -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/25/2008 6:52:46 PM)

Maybe, but everyone that was apart of the senerio, life's were shattered.[&o]



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 9:44:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless
Nice use of sarcasm.

You use words like "Reverends" and Poverty Pimps, and yet I am the sarcastic one?

quote:

the kid that was shot had a long rap sheet, priors, never went to school, and was out gambling at 2:00 AM, on a school night - but I guess that is OK for a 17 year old to do.

So let's shoot 'em. Any African American with a rap sheet-- let's just gun 'em down in the streets. Having a rap sheet sheet while black should be a capital offense, anyway.

quote:

The guy was a felon with priors related to gun crimes and drug dealing

And black-- don't forget black.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 9:48:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redeemedsaint
Justice was served.

And the best part is, there were "no losers" in this case:
quote:

Patrick Lynch, president of the New York Police Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, said "there's no winners; there's no losers" in the case.



rcjames -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 10:26:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless
Nice use of sarcasm.

You use words like "Reverends" and Poverty Pimps, and yet I am the sarcastic one?

quote:

the kid that was shot had a long rap sheet, priors, never went to school, and was out gambling at 2:00 AM, on a school night - but I guess that is OK for a 17 year old to do.

So let's shoot 'em. Any African American with a rap sheet-- let's just gun 'em down in the streets. Having a rap sheet sheet while black should be a capital offense, anyway.

quote:

The guy was a felon with priors related to gun crimes and drug dealing

And black-- don't forget black.


So are you advocating giving a pass to blacks because they are black?

Thanks
RC



Jhud -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 10:36:14 AM)

quote:

And black-- don't forget black.


So were most of the police officers being charged.



lightshineon -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 10:36:34 AM)

This is not an racial issue, Two of the detectives are black, one Italian, I believe. How can this be racial? Tragic yes, but racial no.



earthless -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 11:41:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

You use words like "Reverends" and Poverty Pimps, and yet I am the sarcastic one?
I was actually complimenting you. I am as cynical and sarcastic as they come.

As for the usage of those terms, they are more than apt and factual. Many of those that come out to mug the media coverage are as far from being "reverends" (i.e. Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton) as Mormons are from being Bible based Christians.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

So let's shoot 'em. Any African American with a rap sheet-- let's just gun 'em down in the streets. Having a rap sheet sheet while black should be a capital offense, anyway.


Who mentioned anything about someone being black? I don't care what amount of melanin an individual has - if you are active in a gang, in the drug business, you are not going to be approached the same as a 60 year old woman.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

And black-- don't forget black.


This really shows what your problem is - you're making it a race issue when it is not.



vixir -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 12:04:11 PM)

I believe that the shots were not necessary. Especially 50 rounds! I can fully understand the position that those police officers were put in. But at the same time, I feel as if they should have moved out of the way and pursued them afterwards. After viewing other stories in the past, that are pretty similar to this one -- I can't help but feel as if some officers find any reason to use their weapon. They felt threatened? He didn't draw a weapon, nor did he refuse arrest (because that didn't take place). I sincerely believe that the victims reason was just to get away. I'm pretty disgusted with the verdict, but I'm also disgusted with the comments made by a few people in the court room after the fact. It really bothers me when African-American people play the race card. I'm not trying to be hateful, I just can't help but feel as if they need to get over it. Not everyone is racist and not everyone is out to get them. And in a case concerning officers or even a trial, they're quick to blame an unwanted verdict or event on race. It comes so easy for them. And I'm not saying all African-American people do this. But quiet a few do! I'm sorry if my comment offends some people. That's not my intention. It's just how I sincerely feel.

Thanks for listening. Heh... [8|]



earthless -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 12:17:27 PM)

They did refuse arrest - they refused to obey lawful commands given to them repeatedly. And "move out of the way"? Have you ever had a van aiming for you to kill you? That is use of a deadly weapon and enough cause to do whatever is needed to stop the engaging mortal threat. Be it one bullet or 100.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 1:27:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
So are you advocating giving a pass to blacks because they are black?

Refraining from gunning them down in the streets is a "pass?"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
So were most of the police officers being charged.

I'll ask you the same thing that rcjames asked: are you advocating giving the cops a "pass" because most of them were also black?

Racism's crowning achievement is turning the oppressed on each other. This also happened in the Nazi concentration camps.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon
This is not an racial issue, Two of the detectives are black, one Italian, I believe. How can this be racial? Tragic yes, but racial no.

I will agree in so far as race is not the only factor. The race factor is more evident in earthless's comments. Any chance that earthless would have sung a different tune if these same cops had gunned down a young white man?



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 1:35:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless
I was actually complimenting you. I am as cynical and sarcastic as they come.

Thank you. However, sarcasm isn't usually my style.

quote:

As for the usage of those terms, they are more than apt and factual. Many of those that come out to mug the media coverage are as far from being "reverends" (i.e. Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton) as Mormons are from being Bible based Christians.

I could say the very same thing about many non-black televangelists. What does that prove?
And I suppose that Poverty Pimps is a completely neutral and technically correct term?

quote:

Who mentioned anything about someone being black?

The article did.

quote:

I don't care what amount of melanin an individual has - if you are active in a gang, in the drug business, you are not going to be approached the same as a 60 year old woman.

What if the 60 year old woman is active in a gang and in the drug business?

But seriously, gunning a man down in the streets and then justifying it after the fact by saying, "Well, looky there-- he had a record, so it's okay" sounds mighty hypocritical especially considering the victim's color.

quote:

This really shows what your problem is - you're making it a race issue when it is not.

Actually, I am challenging that you have a race issue. You say that the vicitm's color makes no difference, but let's be honest. Had the victim been white, would your attitude have been any different at all?



vixir -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 1:37:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

They did refuse arrest - they refused to obey lawful commands given to them repeatedly.



I must have missed that part. Where in the article did it say this?



StephK -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 1:55:23 PM)

quote:


I could say the very same thing about many non-black televangelists. What does that prove?
And I suppose that Poverty Pimps is a completely neutral and technically correct term?


You haven't checked out the theology forum yet have you? You will see earthless is an equal opportunity bad preacher basher. [;)]

As far as the topic of this thread, it's a sad situation that I'm sure those police officers wished didn't happen. They didn't start their shift thinking they would go out and kill someone for the fun of it. There is a big problem that needs to be addressed honestly so that more lives aren't wasted and taken for stupid lifestyle choices. It's not the police officers fault either.



lightshineon -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 2:29:14 PM)

These detectives were broken, one was in tears, saying he was sorry to the family. I think it was a tragic accident, that was for some reason, who knows who fault it was maybe both parties. These young men were acting in a way that made, the officers threatened, some action, or past dealings with these kids, I do not know. The policeman seem to have over reacted, to the situation, I do not think they just wanted to kill somebody. They have to live with taking this very young mans life away, and his families great loss, and his future bride. Though he was a supposed thug he mattered to someone. Tragic, is what I think. Now I think eartless is in law enforcement, if I am right? I was in Juvenile Justice, and it was dangerous, two kids were going to cut my throat, before it was found out, by another worker. I thought these kids were somewhat harmless, but they had a sophisticated plan to do the act. Sometimes, there can be threats, that cannot be easily percieved. So those there only know what was felt, at the time. It is just tragic sums it up for everyone.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 3:21:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

"One woman shouted at a black police officer, "How can you be proud to wear that uniform? Stand down! Stop working for the masters!""

And some people wonder why their gang banger kids don't respect the police, teachers, much less any authority figure.... and these are the same people crying on the news about their "honor roll student" getting shot at 2:00 AM, on a school night, while he was shooting dice.

The reason why people don't respect the police is that the police don't respect people.

Here in NYC, they ask us to submit to random searches on subways, in traffic, and occasionally even on sidewalks. They carry automatic weapons in times square and occasionally arrest people who accidentally bring pocketknives into the city. If that's not enough, they randomly shoot people.

Respect is something that must be earned. A police state usually has difficulty earning respect.



lightshineon -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 3:24:17 PM)

Well in the Christian world view we respect authority. These people have a dangerous job, protecting you. How can you say these things?
quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

"One woman shouted at a black police officer, "How can you be proud to wear that uniform? Stand down! Stop working for the masters!""

And some people wonder why their gang banger kids don't respect the police, teachers, much less any authority figure.... and these are the same people crying on the news about their "honor roll student" getting shot at 2:00 AM, on a school night, while he was shooting dice.

The reason why people don't respect the police is that the police don't respect people.

Here in NYC, they ask us to submit to random searches on subways, in traffic, and occasionally even on sidewalks. They carry automatic weapons in times square and occasionally arrest people who accidentally bring pocketknives into the city. If that's not enough, they randomly shoot people.

Respect is something that must be earned. A police state usually has difficulty earning respect.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 3:31:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Well in the Christian world view we respect authority. These people have a dangerous job, protecting you. How can you say these things?

Because NYC really needs to send some of its cops to Chicago, Memphis, or other cities that need them more.

NYC has one of the lowest per-capita murder rates in the country and one of the highest per-capita unconstitutional search rates in the country. Personally, I would rather be in charge of protecting myself than be searched every time I walk down the street in Manhattan.

I'm sorry, but someone who shoots an unarmed person either:

1.) Isn't acting in the name of the government.
2.) If he is acting in the name of the government, he isn't acting on behalf of a government that really has a divine right to govern. This government does not carry any God-given authority.

Such a person should go to jail, like any other person who shoots someone else.



lightshineon -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 3:34:24 PM)

did you read what i said in earlier post?
quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Well in the Christian world view we respect authority. These people have a dangerous job, protecting you. How can you say these things?

Because NYC really needs to send some of its cops to Chicago, Memphis, or other cities that need them more.

NYC has one of the lowest per-capita murder rates in the country and one of the highest per-capita unconstitutional search rates in the country. Personally, I would rather be in charge of protecting myself than be searched every time I walk down the street in Manhattan.

I'm sorry, but someone who shoots an unarmed person either:

1.) Isn't acting in the name of the government.
2.) If he is acting in the name of the government, he isn't acting on behalf of a government that really has a divine right to govern. This government does not carry any God-given authority.

Such a person should go to jail, like any other person who shoots someone else.



todd_t -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 3:47:54 PM)

quote:

I think the question really has to do with using lethal force; when an officer fires his gun, he intends to kill you,


Not so. Cops can shoot to neutralize (e.g. a leg shot, Tazer) a suspect, but only if his/her personal safety is threatened, or the safety of the public.

quote:

so I am not sure I understand the 'excessive' part of this - I mean once you're dead, what number of bullets is excessive?


Even if the suspect was brandishing a gun, how many rounds does it take to stop one man? Fifty is ridiculous.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 3:50:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

did you read what i said in earlier post?

Yes.

1.) They don't have a very dangerous job in New York. We have one of the lowest per-capita crime rates out of any urban area in the world.

2.) We are to submit ourselves to every authority, but when one authority overrules another, we are to submit to that authority. The constitution tells us that roughly one third of what NYC police do is unconstitutional in one form or another. (The other two thirds are handing out parking tickets and intimidating the homeless.)



rabstark -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 5:03:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: todd_t

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

I think the question really has to do with using lethal force; when an officer fires his gun, he intends to kill you,


Not so. Cops can shoot to neutralize (e.g. a leg shot, Tazer) a suspect, but only if his/her personal safety is threatened, or the safety of the public.

quote:

so I am not sure I understand the 'excessive' part of this - I mean once you're dead, what number of bullets is excessive?


Even if the suspect was brandishing a gun, how many rounds does it take to stop one man? Fifty is ridiculous.


Actually, Jack is absolutely right. Police are not trained to "shoot to neutralize". Very few people are capable enough to be able do something like that, even with training, and even assuming the best possible circumstances (ie. broad daylight, stationary target, close range, etc.) Police are trained to aim for the center of mass... which means the torso... and fire in 2-3 round groups. If you are hit in the chest with 2-3 9mm or .40 rounds you will almost certainly be dead, and as Jack said, that is the idea. If a situation comes to the point where the officer feels that he/she must pull the trigger, their intent is to kill the suspect, because death is the only sure way (unless someone has invented the Phaser with a stun setting, and neglected to tell anyone) to insure that the suspect is no longer a threat

. As to the Tazer, not all police departments use them (not sure about the NYPD), and even if you have one, it's range is EXTREMELY limited, and is totally useless if the perps are in a vehicle, which they were in the case being discussed.

In the case of the officer who fired two magazines in this case, he was a responder whose vehicle was rammed by the suspects' vehicle. As has been pointed out, a motor vehicle is considered a deadly weapon when it is being used as one, which it was. When an officer is under attack, he keeps firing until he's sure the attack has stopped... he doesn't stand there counting the number of rounds he's fired and think, "Hmmm, I wonder if I've fired too many?"



lightshineon -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 5:35:31 PM)

No earlier than that.[:)]
quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

did you read what i said in earlier post?

Yes.

1.) They don't have a very dangerous job in New York. We have one of the lowest per-capita crime rates out of any urban area in the world.

2.) We are to submit ourselves to every authority, but when one authority overrules another, we are to submit to that authority. The constitution tells us that roughly one third of what NYC police do is unconstitutional in one form or another. (The other two thirds are handing out parking tickets and intimidating the homeless.)



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 5:57:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rabstark
Actually, Jack is absolutely right. Police are not trained to "shoot to neutralize".

Now let's ask the hard questions: why did it come to gunfire at all? What made the victim panic behind the wheel?

How cool would you remain if a group of men drew guns on you without identifying themselves as undercover police officers?



lightshineon -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 6:01:14 PM)

Well that can be seen on both sides, what do the police know when seeing panic behind a car. I am sure fear is what happened on both counts.
quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: rabstark
Actually, Jack is absolutely right. Police are not trained to "shoot to neutralize".

Now let's ask the hard questions: why did it come to gunfire at all? What made the victim panic behind the wheel?

How cool would you remain if a group of men drew guns on you without identifying themselves as undercover police officers?



rcjames -> RE: Police Found Not Guilty in Sean Bell Case (4/26/2008 6:20:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
I'll ask you the same thing that rcjames asked: are you advocating giving the cops a "pass" because most of them were also black?


If someone is disobeying the orders of police and trying to run down the law enforcement officers, shooting is warrented, Lordy an RPG would have been warrented.

Thanks
RC



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