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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/28/2008 2:25:46 AM
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OLEEguacamole
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fear tactic is when someone creates the illusion of of something frightful in order to manipulate a response.
pointing out a legitimate danger to someone is not a fear tactic.
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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/28/2008 2:39:38 AM
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abraxas
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Not necessarily, mrsdash. If a man threatens his wife with violence if she leaves him, that would be a fear tactic. It could turn out to be more that illusion.
I'm not questioning your motives here, but really the fear aspect of the ideas floating around--and it's not just Christianity where I hear them--turn me away faster than anything.
You believe that you would be in big trouble if you didn't have the beliefs you have. Did you come to those beliefs out of fear?
Anyway enough about fear/imminent dangers.
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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/28/2008 2:49:52 AM
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Real_Solitude
Posts: 266
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
fear tactic is when someone creates the illusion of of something frightful in order to manipulate a response.
pointing out a legitimate danger to someone is not a fear tactic.
Actually, it's still a fear tactic. If someone walks up to your car while your at a stoplight, puts a gun to your head, and says, "Get out or I'll shoot." they are using fear to control you. It doesn't matter if they really will or won't shoot. It doesn't matter if there is a legitimate danger if they're attempting to use fear to illicit a desired response from you.
Simply warning someone of danger is not using fear to manipulate them. Warning someone of danger with the specific intention of altering their decisions is using fear as manipulation, even if your intention is good.
The interesting thing I find about the attempt to instill the fear of hell in an agnostic of atheist is that they don't follow your religion. Even if you manage to convince them that there is the possibility of punishment from a god when they die, simply stating that it's your god that will sentence them really isn't convincing. What I mean is that there are many hells supposedly reserved for the opponents or non-believers in thousands of gods. Without first convincing the agnostic/atheist that your religion is the true one, the only incentive they have is to find the worst hell and attempt to avoid that one.
_____________________________
"Instead of feeling alone in a group its better to have real solitude all by yourself."
~Faye Valentine
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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/28/2008 4:03:30 AM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1191
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you're both describing sinister manipulative use of fear.
in the first "moments" of faith i thought the reality of hell was fear worthy, but it was quickly relplaced by the joy of being in a relationship with a loving God. fear was a momentary stepping stone to love and safety.
i often see God reduced to a concept in these discussions. the funny thing is, a real God would not be molded into any human concept. He is who He is. a vastly supreme being would not be less intelligent or specific etc than mere humans.
< Message edited by mrsdash -- 4/28/2008 4:10:10 AM >
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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/28/2008 6:46:04 AM
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abraxas
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I have to say I see a sinister element in "believe this or go to Hell." Here is something that I'm happy to say that not all Christians agree with, or approve of:
23 Minutes in Hell
A guy's "testimony" about his visit to Hell. From the link:
Anyway, it was all scaly. This one had scales all over its body, giant jaws with huge teeth, and claws sticking out, along with sunken-in eyes. They were just enormous. And the other one didn't looked like this at all, but it had razor sharp fins all over with one long arm and out of proportion feet. Everything was deformed and twisted and out of proportion, out of symmetry, no symmetry, one arm longer and one shorter and just odd looking creatures, horrible, horrible looking things.
Along side the fire I could see through the flames, just enough to see bodies, people in the fire screaming, screaming for mercy, burning in this place! And I knew I didn't want to go in there. The pain I'd endured already was bad enough, but the heat from that flame I knew was worse. These people were begging to get out.
Is that the kind of trouble you were hinting at?
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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/28/2008 6:52:21 AM
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abraxas
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Anytime we humans talk about anything, that thing is reduced to a concept. Our brains work with concepts. If a real God cannot be molded into a human concept, then no one is justified making any statement about God. Love is a human concept. Kindness is a human concept. Justice, forgiveness, sacrifice, etc. If God cannot be conceptualized, at least to a limited degree, then there can be no discussion, period.
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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/28/2008 9:37:51 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
Posts: 593
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Hi Abraxas,
I think your position is entirely understandable given the myriad competing truth claims out there. On behalf of all Christians, I apologize for our contribution to the general confusion and obscuring of the Truth. Our lack of unity is a real scandal.
But I believe, with Agent Mulder, that The Truth Is Out There. that is, objective truth exists. And I have faith that reason can serve as a bridge between traditions and lead us to some Truths. Christians have erred grievously whenever we have denigrated our God-created faculty of reason. JP2, in Fides et Ratio gives a very good account of the proper balance between faith and reason. And Pope Ben 16 in his Regensburg address appeals to reason in attempting to start a conversation with Islam.
But the basic question you are pondering is whether God even exists. Historically, my faith tradition has always taught that this can be known from natural reason alone. And the older I get (I turn 55 this year) the more I am convinced this is true. Recent developments in philosophy (re-discoveries, actually) have greatly fortified the case for theism. If you are inclined toward a discussion along those lines, I'd be happy to so engage.
cordially,
ferd
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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/28/2008 12:56:10 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1191
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Anytime we humans talk about anything, that thing is reduced to a concept. Our brains work with concepts. If a real God cannot be molded into a human concept, then no one is justified making any statement about God. Love is a human concept. Kindness is a human concept. Justice, forgiveness, sacrifice, etc. If God cannot be conceptualized, at least to a limited degree, then there can be no discussion, period.
you are an actual person. period. people can have correct or false concepts about you but you are who you are.
God is more who He is than you are who you are.
as for scare tactics being sinister, if someone tries to scare you from hell and you end up in heaven as a result, how is that sinister? sinister has evil intentions.
i'm not saying anything about how i think people should use/talk about such things to anyone, just looking at the whole "scare tactic" issue.
< Message edited by mrsdash -- 4/28/2008 1:08:38 PM >
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/28/2008 9:39:00 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2301
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From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
I have to say I see a sinister element in "believe this or go to Hell."
I never thought that was an effective way of communicating. You obviously had already heard of hell. Usually, if someone tells you that's where you're headed, you decide to associate with friendlier people. Or at least, I did when someone told me that.
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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/29/2008 3:08:58 AM
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legalnicki
Posts: 50
Joined: 12/18/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
as for scare tactics being sinister, if someone tries to scare you from hell and you end up in heaven as a result, how is that sinister? sinister has evil intentions.
i'm not saying anything about how i think people should use/talk about such things to anyone, just looking at the whole "scare tactic" issue.
Scare tactics simply don't work. Trying to convince an athiest/agnostic of the existence of a baby-eating Satan and a fiery lake full of burning sinners is just as effective as trying to fake out a smart dog by pretending to throw the frisbee but hiding it behind your back. They can't see it, they don't believe it, so they aren't going to fall for it no matter how dire a picture you paint.
I can totally relate to the OP. I myself am teetering. I've been saved since I was 5, and have lived my life exactly the way I was supposed to (until college - I backslid then, but came back to God when I was 21. I'm 37 now). My situation is that I'm very disillusioned due to personal circumstances, on top of the fact that SO many church leaders are failing to live up to the standard that we are supposed to follow. If they can't follow God's commandments, how can I be expected to? Also, I'm starting to question the apparent dichotomy between the God of the OT and the God of the NT, who are the same, but very much different. The vengeful war-mongering God who spared not even the innocent, and said that rapists should marry their victims and children who disobey their parents should be stoned to death vs. the loving God who just won't talk back to me, or give me a sign, or help, or anything. I feel as if I can only rely on myself now.
I still believe in God - I can't look at His creation and deny His existence - but I'm not so sure that God is really as the church preaches that He is. I think that more often than not Those In Charge (TIC) of The Church are doing what is best for their own prosperity, and not necessarily doing what God would have them do. The things that churches preach are meant to keep people in the pews and keep the offering plate flowing, and the message often changes to suit the audience.
And sorry this post got so long. I guess I just wanted to note that I totally relate to the OP, and because I've never expressed these feelings before - not even to my husband - it just kind of poured out of me.
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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/29/2008 8:09:34 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
Posts: 593
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Hi Nicki,
I can relate to your situation, having experienced some of the same feelings at one time or another. The life of faith has its ups and downs.
Re the OT God vs. NT God. the Church has struggled with this from the beginning. Recall that Marcion wanted to do away with the whole OT, but the Church kept both, realizing that we need the OT to understand Salvation History. We can't understand Jesus without the OT.
But there still are things recorded in the OT that are difficult to understand and accept, and insofar as they seem to reflect badly on the Almighty and make us question his goodness, I can only say that is a temptation that we can't give in to. Hang in there and seek answers from the many folks who have spent lifetimes studying these things. For the Big Picture, I find that the covenant is a key to unlocking the meaning of the OT. Scott Hahn has done some good work here.
Re personal disappointment and feeling that God is unresponsive, we all need the consolation of intimate contact with God. But even great saints have times when they do not experience God's presence. Mother Theresa is an example. So don't feel like you are alone with this problem. Persevere in prayer and hang in there girl.
cordially
ferd
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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/29/2008 8:41:23 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 383
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: legalnicki
quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
as for scare tactics being sinister, if someone tries to scare you from hell and you end up in heaven as a result, how is that sinister? sinister has evil intentions.
i'm not saying anything about how i think people should use/talk about such things to anyone, just looking at the whole "scare tactic" issue.
Scare tactics simply don't work. Trying to convince an athiest/agnostic of the existence of a baby-eating Satan and a fiery lake full of burning sinners is just as effective as trying to fake out a smart dog by pretending to throw the frisbee but hiding it behind your back. They can't see it, they don't believe it, so they aren't going to fall for it no matter how dire a picture you paint.
I can totally relate to the OP. I myself am teetering. I've been saved since I was 5, and have lived my life exactly the way I was supposed to (until college - I backslid then, but came back to God when I was 21. I'm 37 now). My situation is that I'm very disillusioned due to personal circumstances, on top of the fact that SO many church leaders are failing to live up to the standard that we are supposed to follow. If they can't follow God's commandments, how can I be expected to? Also, I'm starting to question the apparent dichotomy between the God of the OT and the God of the NT, who are the same, but very much different. The vengeful war-mongering God who spared not even the innocent, and said that rapists should marry their victims and children who disobey their parents should be stoned to death vs. the loving God who just won't talk back to me, or give me a sign, or help, or anything. I feel as if I can only rely on myself now.
I still believe in God - I can't look at His creation and deny His existence - but I'm not so sure that God is really as the church preaches that He is. I think that more often than not Those In Charge (TIC) of The Church are doing what is best for their own prosperity, and not necessarily doing what God would have them do. The things that churches preach are meant to keep people in the pews and keep the offering plate flowing, and the message often changes to suit the audience.
And sorry this post got so long. I guess I just wanted to note that I totally relate to the OP, and because I've never expressed these feelings before - not even to my husband - it just kind of poured out of me.
It is good to question. Never believe anything any person tells you...they could be lying through their teeth. Go into the Word and check it out for yourself. See if what is being presented lines up with the revealed Word of God.
Many people do not like the God of the OT. But, they do not start at the beginning. It is like taking a great novel, randomly opening it somewhere in the middle and starting to read. Will you get an impression of what it is about? Perhaps. Will you get the whole story? No way.
Ultimately, the only true revelation of Who God is, is in the person of Jesus Christ. If you read about His life what strikes you is that those who claimed to be righteous did not recognize Him. They were staring into the very face of God, and yet they couldn't see Him.
Their religion, their arrogance in thinking that they could make themselves acceptable to God, had blinded them. Unfortunately, we see the very same arrogance in what many present as Christianity today. It is not Christianity.
Religion is mans attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.
In Jesus Christ we see the true God, and we see that God does not wish to condemn, but only to save.
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/29/2008 8:49:31 AM
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sunofone
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Abraxas I can imagine that the silence from heaven you are experiencing right now is deafening! So much so that you need us to bring an end to your misery,I can imagine that privately you just want us to say anything to put an end to the silence.
Of course your private hope is that in our speaking you will finally hear from God.I know you tell yourself that you don't care,but we all know that's not true.You're just looking for a reason to believe again,or at the very least confirmation that the position you have taken is correct.
Simple fact is you already know that God could care less about your not caring less,so much so that your childish tantrums,are met with silence and indifference from him.
It's not that God doesn't love you or care,it's just that God doesn't change the rules to suit you.Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him.
Faith is the starting point in finding a relationship ship with God and continued faith is the gasoline that keeps the motor running.Without it you're dead in the water.
God is merciful although what I've just spoken implies he can be cold and heartless.God has given to you and to every man a measure of faith.Everyone of us knows without tangible proof that we didn't just show up here,and we all fear death,because we know without knowing that life is just the starting point of human existence.
What you do with that measure of faith is on you.
May I suggest that if you truly do not care that you slowly continue to just breathe in and breathe out,the anguish that you feel will soon subside,I promise you it will.
God is so merciful that eventually he will turn you over to a reprobate mind where he won't even enter into your thoughts any longer,at this point you will finally know the peace and solitude that escapes you right now.
Your choice will be final,you choose yourself over the creator.This is neither an empty threat,or a fear tactic but a sincere warning.God is not threatened by our questions,and mental anguish.
He is more than willing and capable of helping us to come through it.But there is one requirement he ask of you in return,and it is an absolute requirement,you have to use the measure of faith he has given to believe first that he is,which is clearly evident,and that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him.
It's not to late for you to return to him,even in your anger,confusion,hatred.You just have to lay it all out there on him,and let him know where you are.I promise you that then and only then will he hear you,and he will bring this deafening silence to an end.
I know you want the silence to come to an end and it will I promise you it will,just don't let the end of silence come at the expense of your death I pray.
I would encourage all of Gods priest to pray with me that her inkling of faith that remains sustain her,so that she may recover from this state and live.
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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/29/2008 9:51:12 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 96
Joined: 4/8/2008
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My head is pounding with a cold but I'm going to try to put down a semi-coherent thought or two. If anything comes across as loopy it's probably because I am. 
My thoughts have actually been leaning somewhat towards the advice that Prophet gave--to turn to the beauty and wonders of nature. Not to try to find an answer to the big questions, but for the experiential power of it.
In my life I sometimes have significant experiences that resonate with me deeply. Hopefully we all do. And though they don't shout out, "There is a God!" I do feel like IF there is a God, that God has something to do with those experiences. Like maybe what I'm doing to have that experience is in the vicinity of God. Even if it doesn't, it certainly tells me, "This is a good thing to do. Keep this in your life."
As for your last comment, Prophet, I reject that piece of tripe without hesitation. NO ONE who strives earnestly and sincerely to seek out answers is a fool no matter what conclusions they come to.
ferdgoodfellow, like I told another poster earlier, you needn't apologize for the myriad competing truth claims. How else could it have ended up, with who knows how many of human players over so many generations? I appreciate your offer to chat about these things, and it sounds like you would be just the person I'd like to do that, but for now I'm going in a different direction. "I don't know" has settled the debate for now.
mrsdash, sure, God is exactly who He is, if He exists. But that simply takes me right back to my first post where I mentioned the arena filled with so many ideas--and that's really all we have to work with here. So many people are so certain! "I KNOW that God is ____" they'll all say--with so many conflicting endings to that statement. And yet they all KNOW. I've come to understand that the human brain is capable of KNOWING things, even if those things prove to be inaccurate. Sure, it's not technically knowledge, it's belief, but that doesn't stop people from regarding it as knowledge. "The other guys, yeah, that's only belief, but I KNOW." 
So I'm just going to go in a different direction, much like Ephesians suggested. Maybe I could say I'm not seeking God but I am seeking godliness. Literally or figuratively is not a concern for me. Ephesians you've made quite a few sensible and charitable comments on the threads I've been on and I really appreciate that.
legalnicki, I see differences and similarities in our situations. I hope you find your way through it. Consider doing something similar to what I'm doing--that is, focussing on those aspects of your life where you do feel close to God. For me it's service, charity, family, nature. I mean the ones where you have powerful experiences, maybe even just from thinking back on it. And don't put much weight on TIC! 
This has gotten really long, so I need to stop, but I hope anything I missed directly might be answered indirectly. sunofone you got a few things right and a few things wrong. Thanks for your comments.
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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/29/2008 11:25:06 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1973
Status: offline
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quote:
God did it." is not a good answer for anything.
If it's good enough for God, it should be good enough for us.
God did not create mankind to keep "searching" without ever "finding". That is why He gave us the Scriptures.
The answers to all of life's questions are right there, if we wish to accept them. But some think they are wiser than God, and those God calls "fools". "The fool has said in his heart there is no God". Those who humble themselves before God receive God's wisdom -- Christ.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: I don't really care if God exists or not - 4/30/2008 5:25:54 AM
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Real_Solitude
Posts: 266
Joined: 5/9/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
If it's good enough for God, it should be good enough for us.
God did not create mankind to keep "searching" without ever "finding". That is why He gave us the Scriptures.
The answers to all of life's questions are right there, if we wish to accept them. But some think they are wiser than God, and those God calls "fools". "The fool has said in his heart there is no God". Those who humble themselves before God receive God's wisdom -- Christ.
You don't seem to get my point. Even if God did it, even if we have absolute proof that God did it, "God did it." is not an adequate explanation. To say "God did it." explains nothing. The proper answer seeks to explain how God did it. It seeks to reveal something useful about our universe.
Even if you believe that God causes gravity, "God causes gravity." is not an adequate explanation. We must search for the graviton, search for the equations to model as much as we possibly can about the process. Simply applying a blanket statement to the problem and leaving it alone achieves nothing. It stops us from exploring that problem.
"God did it." is never a good answer, because it is never the answer to a good question. Any question that can be answered in that manner is a bad question. Instead of "What caused the universe to come into being?" the question should be "What can we learn about the universe's beginning?" You might include "God did it." among the answers, but to stop there is clearly an unsatisfying answer to anyone of inquisitive mind.
_____________________________
"Instead of feeling alone in a group its better to have real solitude all by yourself."
~Faye Valentine
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