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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 12:26:35 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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Transubstantiation is a false doctrine.
Matthew 26
29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
I will not drink...of this fruit of the vine...
Christ had prayed and still referred to the cup as the fuit of the vine. He was not drinking his own blood.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 1:23:34 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Transubstantiation is a false doctrine. From what I have learned, the definition is not the same. When the West talks about this, they mean one thing, but when the East talks about it, they mean something totally different. So probably debating about not believing a particular word would not be helpful, unless you're talking to a Westerner.
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 2:22:50 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Transubstantiation is a false doctrine. From what I have learned, the definition is not the same. When the West talks about this, they mean one thing, but when the East talks about it, they mean something totally different. So probably debating about not believing a particular word would not be helpful, unless you're talking to a Westerner.
I see this difference that you mention!
In the Orthodox view, all of reality -- the world and man himself -- is real to the extent that it is symbolical and mystical, to the extent that reality itself must reveal and manifest God to us. Thus, the eucharist in the Orthodox Church is understood to be the genuine Body and Blood of Christ precisely because bread and wine are the mysteries and symbols of God's true and genuine presence and manifestation to us in Christ. Thus, by eating and drinking the bread and wine which are mystically consecrated by the Holy Spirit, we have genuine communion with God through Christ who is himself "the bread of life" (Jn 6:34, 41). - oca.org
Eastern Christianity
The Eastern Catholic, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox Churches, along with the Assyrian Church of the East, agree that the bread and wine truly and actually become the body and blood of Christ. They have in general refrained from philosophical speculation, and usually rely on the status of the doctrine as a "Mystery," something known by divine revelation that could not have been arrived at by reason without revelation. Accordingly, they prefer not to elaborate upon the details and remain firmly within Holy Tradition, than to say too much and possibly deviate from the truth. However, they do speak clearly of a "change" (in Greek μεταβολή) or "metousiosis" (μετουσίωσις) of the bread and wine. Met-ousi-osis is the Greek form of the word Tran-substantia-tion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 6:48:42 PM
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walterquez
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Dear ephesians4_32, I can't say much, other than what Christ have said. He said, This is my body, and this is my blood. This is what He said, therefore this is what we believe.
Change? When the Son of God took on flesh, was there a change in the flesh? If you were to look at it under a microscope, I am pretty sure it would look like any other human cell. If you saw Him pass by and exclaim that He is God, people might respond that He looks like any other human. And I am pretty sure that any other scientific analysis taken would conclusively say that without a doubt, He is 100% human. And that there is no trace of God in Jesus. Believe me, it is a mystery.
You want us to explain the bread and wine? Jesus said, This is my body, and this is my blood. Why not take Him at His word?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 9:23:58 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Dear ephesians4_32, I can't say much, other than what Christ have said. He said, This is my body, and this is my blood. This is what He said, therefore this is what we believe.
I refer you to post 51 above where I indicated that He again refers to it as the fruit of the vine:
quote:
Matthew 26
29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
I will not drink...of this fruit of the vine...
Christ had prayed and still referred to the cup as the fuit of the vine. He was not drinking his own blood.
quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
You want us to explain the bread and wine? Jesus said, This is my body, and this is my blood. Why not take Him at His word?
Why not believe Him when He said, "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. " Why would Christ drink His own blood?
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 9:37:16 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Why not believe Him when He said, "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. " Why would Christ drink His own blood? Why would He say, this is my Body, or this is my Blood if it was not so? Or why it would matter for someone to take it unworthily if it was just bread and wine?
I am not sure where you going with, "fruit of the vine". No one denies that the bread is indeed bread, and the wine indeed from the fruit of the vine. But so is His flesh indeed from human flesh. Is He then not God, because His flesh is from human flesh?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 9:45:15 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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"We see ourselves as Christ's Church and the Church of His Apostles and their successors. This is one of the terms 'Apostolic' in the Creed. Thus, for example, the Orthodox bishops of Corinth and Thessalonike today see themselves as direct historical, spiritual and canonical descendants of St. Paul and those who were left by him to be pastors of the churches in their communities."
orthodoxchurchofstandrew.org
I believe that the Orthodox church is a far cry from the New Testament Church of the Bible.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 9:49:18 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Why not believe Him when He said, "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. " Why would Christ drink His own blood? Why would He say, this is my Body, or this is my Blood if it was not so? Or why it would matter for someone to take it unworthily if it was just bread and wine?
I am not sure where you going with, "fruit of the vine". No one denies that the bread is indeed bread, and the wine indeed from the fruit of the vine. But so is His flesh indeed from human flesh. Is He then not God, because His flesh is from human flesh?
If it is fruit of the vine, it is only symbolically His blood. He wasn't drinking His own blood.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 9:57:23 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
"We see ourselves as Christ's Church and the Church of His Apostles and their successors. This is one of the terms 'Apostolic' in the Creed. Thus, for example, the Orthodox bishops of Corinth and Thessalonike today see themselves as direct historical, spiritual and canonical descendants of St. Paul and those who were left by him to be pastors of the churches in their communities."
orthodoxchurchofstandrew.org
I believe that the Orthodox church is a far cry from the New Testament Church of the Bible. Why? If the Churches mentioned in the NT, like the Church at Corinth, Antioch, Jerusalem, Thessalonians, and the rest are known today as the Orthodox, how can one logically dismiss these biblical and historical evidence?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 9:59:22 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
If it is fruit of the vine, it is only symbolically His blood. He wasn't drinking His own blood. Was the Son of God taking on flesh only symbolic?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 10:32:46 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Ephe, again let me remind you that we have a one-stop thread HERE for discussing the Eucharist.
Please take *all* discussion of the Eucharist to that thread, and do not discuss it here.
Thanks.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/27/2008 4:45:39 AM
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walterquez
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Alithos anesti! Indeed He is risen!
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St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/28/2008 10:49:04 AM
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Lurker
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Al-Masayam Qam! :D
Christos Voskrese!! :D
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Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/28/2008 9:37:16 PM
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JesKlu
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Christ Is Risen!
He is Risen Indeed! Hallelujah!
But I am not Eastern Orthodox, I am Lutheran, but I do respect the Eastern Orthodox faith. And Ephesians4, even though I do disagree with the Orthodox in the veneration of the saints, and the kissing of Icons, I agree there is a beauty to the Orthodox. I've been to services, so I know. In my denomination, there is some Orthodoxy in it, (Missouri Synod Lutheran), but without the veneration of the Saints and Mary, and no icons.
I believe we shouldn't be fighting as much. As someone on here said.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/29/2008 6:34:45 AM
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facedown
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quote:
In the Orthodox view, all of reality -- the world and man himself -- is real to the extent that it is symbolical and mystical, to the extent that reality itself must reveal and manifest God to us.
normally, when you refer to a website, it's prudent to link to the actual page you quoted from; however, this caught my attention.
while i wouldn't phrase it just this way, this quote is speaking of what one may call 'sacramental theology'. i'm not in communion with the orthodox church; however, here's my understanding and conviction:
sacramental
when someone hears the word "sacramental" the thoughts that normally follow are baptism or the eucharist; however, sacramental beckons something less specific than a singular moment in time and space. christ calls us to a sacramental life - to see the cosmos as sacramental. so, we must consider what this entails.
the normally understood definition of a sacrament is a moment of god intersecting our midst or gods grace being bestowed. so a sacramental life sees god intersecting and bestowing his grace on a very broad scale. at mars hill, paul evokes this imagery as he invites his pagan hearers to worship god who is father of all, and in whom we live, move, and find our being.
as anglicans, we have a tendency towards this - to see god as father of all. to see god as the one we find our being in. our baptismal covenant calls to us to see christ in the other. jesus tells us that we meet him when we serve the least of these. too often we see god as the light at the end of the tunnel, or the "go" spot on a monopoly board, but god encompasses the tunnel and all of life. he is here - now and is known among us, in us, and through us....all
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/29/2008 3:03:51 PM
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mariadreamer
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If anyone is curious or interested in the Orthodox Church, you would enjoy this site:
http://ancientfaith.com/
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Christ is risen from the dead,
by death He has trampled down death,
and on those in the tombs bestowing life!
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/29/2008 11:11:07 PM
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Ps103
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mariadreamer
If anyone is curious or interested in the Orthodox Church, you would enjoy this site:
http://ancientfaith.com/
Hey--I love that station! I have passed it on to many people.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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