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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/24/2008 6:23:03 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
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quote:
Ephesians,
I just wanted to say that I read the article that was connected to your "icon" thread that was shut down. That article was not from an Orthodox website and misconstued the Orthodox faith. One could do the same with the Lutheran faith, or the Methodist faith or any other Protestant faith if they wanted to.
When I wanted to learn about the Roman Catholic Church, I went to Roman Catholic sites, read Roman Catholic books, read Papal Encyclicals, attended mass, had counsel from a priest, attended RCIA classes. IOW, I went to the proper sources. The same is true for the Orthodox faith. You need to learn about it from Orthodox sources, Orthodox people, and attend Divine Liturgy. And attending one or two times isn't enough. I am discovering, as someone on these forums has told me, that "Orthodoxy is a way of life."
God Bless you,
Heavendweller
Ephesians: I normally do the same although it is not always advisable. If you want to learn about Mormonism, for example, I suggest learning from an ex-Mormon first before you are sucked in.
While learning from an ex-Mormon might be good, it could also be bad. That former Mormon could say things about Mormonism because he/she has anger or hurt or any number of issues about their experience. I think one would still have to read what Mormons believe from their writings and from reading the Book of Mormon in order to understand that faith.
As far as being "sucked in," if one prays for the Holy Spirit's guidance and protection, and believes that He will guard them from all error, they have no need to fear being deceived into heresy. I have had many conversations with Jehovah's Witnesses, read their material, and learned from their sources what they believe. This is the best and most preferable method in order to understand any belief system.
quote:
When I wanted to know about Catholicism, I went to a Catholic priest. Later I visited St. Peter's in the Vatican and other cathedrals in Italy. I believe I got the real picture.
And that was the best route to go. For over 20 years, I thought I understood Roman Catholicism but only learned about it from Protestants and ex-Catholics. When I went to Catholic sources to learn about the RCC, I discovered I had been misinformed about that faith.
quote:
Now just because some information is at a non-Eastern Orthodox site, does not make it inaccurate information. Forgive me, but that sounds rather presumptuous.
I'm not sure if by presumptuous you mean "over-confident" or "arrogant" or "self-assured." In any case, I know enough about the EO to be able to discern when someone is misinforming others about this faith. I think you could do the same if someone were to wrongly represent your faith.
Ephesians, I read the entire article and the author's intention was to influence people away from the Orthodox faith. Perhaps the writer had an ax to grind, or perhaps is misinformed, or any number of things are possible. Nonetheless, I suggest if you want to learn about the Orthodox faith, you go directly to Orthodox sources. If, on the other hand you aren't really interested, that's fine too. But don't think that an article about "icons" is all that there is to the Orthodox faith.
God Bless you in your journey of faith.
Heavendweller
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/24/2008 6:39:28 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
Heavendweller: "You may just be surprised to discover that the earliest Christians did not believe that The Lord's Supper and Baptism were ordinations and only symbolic. You may discover that the Early Church did not believe that the church universal is only mystical. You may discover that they did not hold to Once Saved Always Saved, a very popular teaching within Protestantism. You may discover that they believed it was necessary for a Christian to "endure to the end to be saved." It wasn't a done deal upon initial conversion."
drfuss: Not sure where you looked in Protestantism, but most protestant denominations do not believe in Once Saved, Always saved. However, the Baptists are very vocal about thier belief in it, so I can see why you could conclude that it is popular among Protestants.
I've been a Protestant for over 30 years so I'll agree with you that there are denominations out there that aren't OSAS. But I was involved in street witnessing ministries for many years, and have attended many churches in the course of my Christian journey. I've met more OSAS Christians that I can even count.
While attending a Wesleyan College, I learned about John Wesley's teachings extensively and I know he didn't believe in OSAS. And neither do many Assemblies of God and Mennonites. The non-denominational church I was a member of broke away from the Methodists and preached OSAS. I've encountered this belief so much that I get tired of discussing it with Christians.
Oh well, maybe it's just my experience.
Heavendweller
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/24/2008 8:33:49 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1796
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Ephesians,
I just wanted to say that I read the article that was connected to your "icon" thread that was shut down. That article was not from an Orthodox website and misconstued the Orthodox faith. One could do the same with the Lutheran faith, or the Methodist faith or any other Protestant faith if they wanted to.
Why must you keep talking about a thread that was closed?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
When I wanted to learn about the Roman Catholic Church, I went to Roman Catholic sites, read Roman Catholic books, read Papal Encyclicals, attended mass, had counsel from a priest, attended RCIA classes. IOW, I went to the proper sources. The same is true for the Orthodox faith. You need to learn about it from Orthodox sources, Orthodox people, and attend Divine Liturgy. And attending one or two times isn't enough. I am discovering, as someone on these forums has told me, that "Orthodoxy is a way of life."
I become quite suspicious when people are afraid for me to learn what others are saying about their faith. No, I have no intention of attending an Eastern Orthodox church. Besides, I'm quite allergic to incense. BTW, my faith in Christ is a way of life.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I normally do the same although it is not always advisable. If you want to learn about Mormonism, for example, I suggest learning from an ex-Mormon first before you are sucked in.
While learning from an ex-Mormon might be good, it could also be bad. That former Mormon could say things about Mormonism because he/she has anger or hurt or any number of issues about their experience. I think one would still have to read what Mormons believe from their writings and from reading the Book of Mormon in order to understand that faith.
If you feel you can't trust an ex-Mormon, talk to one who was in it for over a decade and who is now living for Christ. I don't lie about Mormonism. I tell the truth that Mormons won't tell you. Would you ask Hitler or Hermann Pister about concentration camps, or would you ask one of their victims? Who you ask depends on how much supposedly needs to be hidden.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
As far as being "sucked in," if one prays for the Holy Spirit's guidance and protection, and believes that He will guard them from all error, they have no need to fear being deceived into heresy. I have had many conversations with Jehovah's Witnesses, read their material, and learned from their sources what they believe. This is the best and most preferable method in order to understand any belief system.
You obviously know very little about Mormonism. That is the worst route to take into Mormonism.
Now, every born-again believer can rely on the Holy Spirit to tell them if the ex-Mormon is an honest person. You see, the Apostles had no problem warning people about false teachers, the Council of Nicea 1 had no problem condemning anti-trinitarianism, and an honest Christian will not only tell the truth about Mormonism, he/she will say, "I don't know," if they are unfamiliar with certain teachings.
I ask you to please stop criticizing me for having looked at that article. I didn't even read it! I copied the part I wanted to talk about and the thread got closed because the moderator must have thought I wanted to talk about Catholicism which I didn't.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
When I wanted to know about Catholicism, I went to a Catholic priest. Later I visited St. Peter's in the Vatican and other cathedrals in Italy. I believe I got the real picture.
And that was the best route to go. For over 20 years, I thought I understood Roman Catholicism but only learned about it from Protestants and ex-Catholics. When I went to Catholic sources to learn about the RCC, I discovered I had been misinformed about that faith.
Well, I had a different experience. But my eyes were truly opened to more knowledge when I visited St. Peter's. The priest hadn't taught me anything about the statue of St. Peter in that cathedral.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
Now just because some information is at a non-Eastern Orthodox site, does not make it inaccurate information. Forgive me, but that sounds rather presumptuous.
I'm not sure if by presumptuous you mean "over-confident" or "arrogant" or "self-assured." In any case, I know enough about the EO to be able to discern when someone is misinforming others about this faith. I think you could do the same if someone were to wrongly represent your faith.
Are you Eastern Orthodox? Please show us the false information I've posted about the Eastern Orthodox. But please don't falsely accuse me. Posting false information about someone's faith is the last thing I want to do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Ephesians, I read the entire article and the author's intention was to influence people away from the Orthodox faith.
Remember, I did NOT post the article.
The author's intention doesn't make him a liar nor does it mean he has an axe to grind.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Perhaps the writer had an ax to grind, or perhaps is misinformed, or any number of things are possible. Nonetheless, I suggest if you want to learn about the Orthodox faith, you go directly to Orthodox sources.
Your suggestion is noted, but I don't believe it is the only way to go. I'm interested in other perspectives about it also. I opened this thread, did I not?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
If, on the other hand you aren't really interested, that's fine too.
Thanks. God bless America.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
But don't think that an article about "icons" is all that there is to the Orthodox faith.
Any semi-intelligent person would know that there is more to any church than icons.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/24/2008 8:59:29 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1796
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Ephesians,
You may just be surprised to discover that the earliest Christians did not believe that The Lord's Supper and Baptism were ordinations and only symbolic.
I would not be surprised at the doctrine of transubstantiation.
Who believes that The Lord's Supper and Baptism are ordinations? Don't answer. This thread is about the Greek Orthodox faith.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
You may discover that the Early Church did not believe that the church universal is only mystical. You may discover that they did not hold to Once Saved Always Saved, a very popular teaching within Protestantism.
The New Testament Church taught the doctrines of the Bible. The Bible contains the word of God on the subject of salvation and eternal security versus conditional security.
2 Timothy 3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
You may discover that they believed it was necessary for a Christian to "endure to the end to be saved." It wasn't a done deal upon initial conversion.
Many of us so-called Protestant Christians know that Christians are the ones who endure to the end. Christ is ever interceding on behalf of those whom the Father has brought to Him. Does the Father deny the requests of the Son?
(See John 17:20; Heb. 5:7; Heb. 9:12, 24)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
There are many stark differences between the modern Evangelical Protestant Church and the Early Church.
I would correct that to say:
There are many stark differences between the modern Evangelical Protestant Church and the Early Greek Orthodox Church.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Believe me, I never, ever would have chosen to go in this direction. I was rather content being an Evangelical Protestant.
Believe me, being an Evangelical Protestant saves no one. Nor does being Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox save anyone. My faith is built on nothing less that Jesus' blood and righteousness.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/25/2008 1:57:42 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
Joined: 12/22/2007
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Dear Ephesians,
The Holy Spirit has convicted me that this conversation with you at this time regarding the Orthodox Church is unprofitable. If I have offended you in any way, I am sorry. Please forgive me.
Perhaps at some time in the future we can converse on our love of God and our communion with Christ and our brothers and sisters.
May the Lord bless you keep you. May the Lord His face to shine upon you.
Heavendweller
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/25/2008 2:44:09 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1796
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From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Dear Ephesians,
The Holy Spirit has convicted me that this conversation with you at this time regarding the Orthodox Church is unprofitable. If I have offended you in any way, I am sorry. Please forgive me.
I may get frustrated with another person's view, but I certainly accept your apology and hope you will accept mine. I hate for this to get personal. I'm sorry if my disagreement with you offended you.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/25/2008 11:09:49 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1796
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From: The Crossroads of America
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Standing before the icon of Christ in the front of St. John Orthodox Church, I prepare to offer my confession at the Sacrament of Forgiveness. The Holy image of the One Who Forgives comes forth to meet me, as the father comes forth to welcome home the prodigal son in the familiar gospel passage (Luke 15:11–32). The love of Jesus pours forth from his prototype (the icon), sees the offering of my broken heart, and raises it to the heavenly realm.
Icons Will Save the World
by Susan Cushman
Christian art only emerged relatively late, and the first known Christian images emerge from about 200 AD. This early rejection of images, although never proclaimed by theologians, leaves us with little archaeological records regarding early Christianity and its evolution. The oldest Christian paintings are from the Roman Catacombs, dated to about 200 AD, and the oldest Christian sculptures are from sarcophagi, dating to the beginning of the 3rd century.
Church History
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/25/2008 11:01:51 PM
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Cloak
Posts: 4121
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Canada
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Today is Good Friday in the Orthodox Church!!!
_____________________________
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 12:52:18 AM
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walterquez
Posts: 1357
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I'm sorry, Greek Orthodox members. I don't want to offend anyone, but I will never believe that the earliest Christians were kissing icons. You mean to tell me you never kissed a photo of someone you love?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 12:55:55 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1796
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I'm sorry, Greek Orthodox members. I don't want to offend anyone, but I will never believe that the earliest Christians were kissing icons. You mean to tell me you never kissed a photo of someone you love?
Absolutely not! Why would that help me or the person I love?
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 12:57:53 AM
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walterquez
Posts: 1357
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
I would consider myself a Catechuman, in the stages of learning about Orthodoxy. Each time that I study this faith tradition, my spirit wants to leap like a gazelle. I find it so refreshing. I can go to any Orthodox website, read Orthodox material, and actually get answers as to what they believe. It's not like going to 50 different websites and discovering that they disagree. I'm able to learn about the Orthodox teaching on the Deity of Christ, the Incarnation, the Trinity, Eschatology, the Church, Apostolic Succession, the angels, Satan, sin, Eucharist, Baptism, the Sacraments, etc. etc. And to my surprise, I have discovered that there is a unity of belief, a communion that is shared in the Christian Orthodox Church that has not changed. It is a faith that is universally held by all Orthodox. How true. It doesn't matter if I go to a Greek, Antiochian, Russian, Jerusalem, Alexandrian, Romanian, or other Orthodox group, the faith is the same.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 1:07:56 AM
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apologist1948
Posts: 27
Joined: 11/19/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I'm sorry, Greek Orthodox members. I don't want to offend anyone, but I will never believe that the earliest Christians were kissing icons. You mean to tell me you never kissed a photo of someone you love?
I cannot say that I would do or have ever done anything as absurd and unsanitary as that. Why would you want to kiss a piece of glossy paper, anyway? That picture is not the person I love - it is an image of the person I love. This image is not anything more (or less) than what value you assigned it as - a picture. It has no animate attributes. It gives no supernatural powers to the "kisser." Lastly, it spreads germs, unnecessarily.
Love in the name Jesus Christ.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 1:12:31 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
It doesn't matter if I go to a Greek, Antiochian, Russian, Jerusalem, Alexandrian, Romanian, or other Orthodox group, the faith is the same.
I haven't found any variance of doctrine in one Wesleyan congregation or another.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 1:13:46 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1796
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quote:
ORIGINAL: apologist1948
Lastly, it spreads germs, unnecessarily.
LOL!
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 1:42:17 AM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquezquote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I'm sorry, Greek Orthodox members. I don't want to offend anyone, but I will never believe that the earliest Christians were kissing icons. You mean to tell me you never kissed a photo of someone you love? Absolutely not! Why would that help me or the person I love?
If the icon has no meaning to you, then I dare you take a picture of your father or mother or spouse or children, and spit on it. Then step on it, and flush it down the toilet with the rest of what is in there. After all, it is just a piece of paper with an icon of a love one.
I wonder what the person represented in the icon or photo would think of you.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 1:50:29 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1796
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From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquezquote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I'm sorry, Greek Orthodox members. I don't want to offend anyone, but I will never believe that the earliest Christians were kissing icons. You mean to tell me you never kissed a photo of someone you love? Absolutely not! Why would that help me or the person I love?
If the icon has no meaning to you, then I dare you take a picture of your father or mother or spouse or children, and spit on it. Then step on it, and flush it down the toilet with the rest of what is in there. After all, it is just a piece of paper with an icon of a love one.
I wonder what the person represented in the icon or photo would think of you.
Goodnesss! What is your problem??? I don't even spit on your icons! I stay away from them. Pictures don't prove my love to anyone, but my family knows I love them because of how I treat them. Their pictures aren't there for me to venerate them. Do you believe that kissing icons is taught in the Bible?
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 1:53:30 AM
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apologist1948
Posts: 27
Joined: 11/19/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquezquote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
I'm sorry, Greek Orthodox members. I don't want to offend anyone, but I will never believe that the earliest Christians were kissing icons. You mean to tell me you never kissed a photo of someone you love? Absolutely not! Why would that help me or the person I love?
If the icon has no meaning to you, then I dare you take a picture of your father or mother or spouse or children, and spit on it. Then step on it, and flush it down the toilet with the rest of what is in there. After all, it is just a piece of paper with an icon of a love one.
I wonder what the person represented in the icon or photo would think of you.
That is unsanitary, also. Just for the sake of clarification, are you proclaiming that family photos are on equal with ceremonial icons to be used in religious services within the EOC?
It looks like you are changing the bait in mid-stream in an attempt to maintain your thesis. As much a I would love to have pictures of my ancestors and my family, I have been admonished NOT to store up treasures on earth. Why would you compare religious icons with members of your family, anyway?
Is it because Paul called ALL believers Saints?
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 1:55:34 AM
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walterquez
Posts: 1357
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Dear Ephesians4_32, please forgive me if I have offended you, that was not my intention. I only said it to make a point, and a very dramatic one at that, with the hope you would think why would you not do such a thing, even though it is just an icon of a love one.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 2:18:43 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1796
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Dear Ephesians4_32, please forgive me if I have offended you, that was not my intention. I only said it to make a point, and a very dramatic one at that, with the hope you would think why would you not do such a thing, even though it is just an icon of a love one.
I don't get your point. I do not venerate "saints." I am one, just as other followers of Christ are. I do not kiss icons. I do not spit on or flush icons down the toilet.
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 7:01:35 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 910
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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In my time here, I have found myself enjoying and largely agreeing with the faith described and discussed by the EO participants here. However, I diverge on the fine points to my Roman Catholic faith, as I do believe the model of instruction, teaching and some of the views on discipline are beneficial to my personal practice of faith, and that these views are unique within the Roman Church.
If one cannot bring themselves into communion with Rome, then by all means ... wander your way towards the EO Church. I believe within her there is a richness, depth and fullness of faith available for those who seek but cannot find that depth and fullness in other instruction, and I have come to that belief by reading the wonderful posts of the EO forum members participating here.
Heck..their Bible is even bigger than mine....
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Greek Orthodox Thread - 4/26/2008 10:18:11 AM
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walterquez
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quote:
'During the reign of Constantine V (741-775), Stephen showed his love of Orthodoxy in contending for the Faith... Besides being a fierce Iconoclast, Constantine raised up a ruthless persecution of monasticism. He held a council in 754 that anathematized the holy icons. Because Saint Stephen rejected this council, the Emperor framed false accusations against him and exiled him. But while in exile Saint Stephen performed healings with holy icons and turned many away from Iconoclasm. When he was brought before the Emperor again, he showed him a coin and asked whose image the coin bore. "Mine," said the tyrant. "If any man trample upon thine image, is he liable to punishment?" asked the Saint. When they that stood by answered yes, the Saint groaned because of their blindness, and said if they thought dishonouring the image of a corruptible king worthy of punishment, what torment would they receive who trampled upon the image of the Master Christ and of the Mother of God? Then he threw the coin to the ground and trampled on it. He was condemned to eleven months in bonds and imprisonment. Later, he was dragged over the earth and was stoned, like Stephen the First Martyr; wherefore he is called Stephen the New. Finally, he was struck with a wooden club on the temple and his head was shattered, and thus he gave up his spirit in the year 767.'
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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