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[Poll]
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Could Jesus have sinned?
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| Jesus was God so he was infallible |
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| Jesus was tempted so he could have sinned |
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| I am not sure, but am leaning toward Him being infallible |
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| I am not sure, but am leaning toward him being fallible |
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| I have no idea. |
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Total Votes : 41
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(last vote on : 5/6/2008 11:27:41 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 4/29/2008 11:48:15 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
Well, I don't see how "robbery" fits in, but we do believe God's Word is true and so far no one has referenced Scripture that Jesus, Second person of the Godhead, was incapable of sinning during His Incarnation.
I thought about this while in church tonight,something my pastor said that seemed to register.
Bitter and sweet can not come out from the same fountain.Jesus said it's not what is outside of a man and enters into him that defiles him,but rather what comes out of his mouth.In another place he speaks of the issues of life flow from the heart.Out of the abundance of the heat the mouth speaks.
While considering these thoughts I asked myself could sin have come out of Jesus heart? Was it even possible that anywhere in Jesus being sin could have sprung forth?
The fact that Jesus was both God and man prevents this from ever being a possibility.It's like asking if God can sin,or lie.I take that back,it is asking if God could sin,I think we all have to conclude he could or can not.
I guess we have to ask ourselves Mark,who do we believe Jesus was,a man or God? If we answer correctly that he was both at the same time the answer to the op has to be no.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 4/30/2008 11:32:52 AM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
I guess we have to ask ourselves Mark,who do we believe Jesus was,a man or God? If we answer correctly that he was both at the same time the answer to the op has to be no.
i think we both agree that there is some mystry involved in this question. is your answer baised toward the fact that Jesus was God thereby minimizing his human nature?
to be honest i think the answer is beyond our understaning, we see in scripture that Jesus was God, and we see that he was man. Jesus knew the will of the Father and walked in obediance to His will, and yet He did not know the day and the hour of the coming of the Son of Man. i dont know that we can place one nature over the other without doing damage to the mystry of the incarnation.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 4/30/2008 2:07:14 PM
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drmark
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quote:
i dont know that we can place one nature over the other without doing damage to the mystry of the incarnation. Point well taken, john_mark! Fully human AND fully divine does not answer the question of Jesus' ability to sin. Where did Adam's ability to sin come from if he was created sinless? Does anyone have a reasonable explanation for that question?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 4/30/2008 4:45:29 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 239
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
Jesus knew the will of the Father and walked in obediance to His will, and yet He did not know the day and the hour of the coming of the Son of Man.
Jesus chose to limit his knowledge much like His Father. See Hebrews 8:12. Jesus' attributes are the same as His father's since the fullness of the Godhead dwells in His (Jesus) body. Since they have exactly the same attributes, Jesus could not sin.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 4/30/2008 5:19:58 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Jesus' attributes are the same as His father's since the fullness of the Godhead dwells in His (Jesus) body. The only Bible verse to support this statement is Col 2:9. The Interlinear Bible indicates that the original Greek word somatikos is used uniquely in this sole verse. Strong's defines somatikos to mean "of the exalted spiritual body, visible only to the inhabitants of heaven". Thus, this verse does not clearly demonstrate the inability of Jesus to sin, while Incarnated here on earth. Just as He limited His knowledge, Jesus could also have limited His sinlessness, since omniscience and holiness are both divine attributes.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 4/30/2008 5:35:30 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
Jesus chose to limit his knowledge much like His Father. See Hebrews 8:12.
hebrews 8:12
FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE
i dont see that this is teaching that God limits His knowledge and more importantly i dont see anything here to indicate that Jesus limited His knowledge. the idea in heb 8 sems to be that Jesus mediates a new covenant and thru His sacrifice the sins of man will be atoned for. a debt that is paid in full is no longer remembered. i dont see in heb 8 the idea that God forgets our sins, that would diminsih the sacrifice of the cross
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 4/30/2008 6:19:10 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 239
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Thus, this verse does not clearly demonstrate the inability of Jesus to sin, while Incarnated here on earth. Just as He limited His knowledge, Jesus could also have limited His sinlessness, since omniscience and holiness are both divine attributes.
I think that verse is clear explaining that Jesus had all the attributes of Deity. (I guess we have to agree to disagree here.) This means he has the same attributes as the other 2 members of the triune God. To say he could have limited His sinlessness is the same as saying God the Father and The Holy Spirit can do the same. I agree that holiness and omniscience are divine attributes. Thank God He choses to limit that knowledge.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 4/30/2008 6:27:17 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 239
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
Jesus chose to limit his knowledge much like His Father. See Hebrews 8:12.
hebrews 8:12
FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE
i dont see that this is teaching that God limits His knowledge and more importantly i dont see anything here to indicate that Jesus limited His knowledge. the idea in heb 8 sems to be that Jesus mediates a new covenant and thru His sacrifice the sins of man will be atoned for. a debt that is paid in full is no longer remembered. i dont see in heb 8 the idea that God forgets our sins, that would diminsih the sacrifice of the cross
You are actually the one to bring up the fact that Jesus' knowledge was limited. You said "...He did not know...". I think Hebrews 8:12 is evidence that an omniscient God can chose to forget or limit His knowledge. This means that both the Father and Son share the same attribute in limiting their knowledge.
Jesus is the New Covenant and is the reason God forgets our sins.
Anyway, back to the discussion.........
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 4/30/2008 6:50:35 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
You are actually the one to bring up the fact that Jesus' knowledge was limited. You said "...He did not know...".
actually it is scripture that says this
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
we see that the Father can know something that the Son does not. Jesus does not say I have chosen to limit my knowledge, that has to be implied into the passage.
this verse comes in the middle of a passage where Jesus is telling future events in great detail. His knowledge of those events was not in anyway limited.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 4/30/2008 7:03:21 PM
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Beanteaser
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Even if Jesus knows every single thing except one, His knowledge was limited. Did he limit it on his own? I think so because He shares the same attributes with His Father who chose to limit His knowledge.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 4/30/2008 7:47:49 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 366
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do i understand your basic premise to be that Jesus could not sin becuase he was God and shared the attributes of God?
if i understand that correctly let me ask this. when Jesus died on the cross did God die or did Jesus do something that God could not do?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 4/30/2008 8:30:15 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 432
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
i dont know that we can place one nature over the other without doing damage to the mystry of the incarnation. Point well taken, john_mark! Fully human AND fully divine does not answer the question of Jesus' ability to sin. Where did Adam's ability to sin come from if he was created sinless? Does anyone have a reasonable explanation for that question?
Mrk I've thought this as well.Let me know what you think.One definition of sin is to miss the mark.In Adams case sin entered through disobedience of Gods command.
As long as Adam had an independent will,he was always at risk for sinning.The mark which Adam had to meet was eternal obedience without ever choosing his own will over Gods will.In other words Adam would have to remain perfect in every sense of the word for all eternity.
I don't know how possible this could be from a human.We see the God man Jesus in the garden submit his will to Father with great agony and stress.
I don't see how Adam could have done what Jesus could only do being the God man?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 4/30/2008 9:50:54 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 432
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Heres a question on line with the op.If Jesus was the word made flesh,and the Bible represents the mind and will of God which Jesus personified.
How can the Bible be infallible,but Jesus the personification of the Bible be fallible?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 4/30/2008 10:43:18 PM
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Prairiehiker
Posts: 438
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
do i understand your basic premise to be that Jesus could not sin becuase he was God and shared the attributes of God?
if i understand that correctly let me ask this. when Jesus died on the cross did God die or did Jesus do something that God could not do?
quote:
Mrk I've thought this as well.Let me know what you think.One definition of sin is to miss the mark.In Adams case sin entered through disobedience of Gods command.
The way I understand it, His physical body died. Having a body gave him his human attributes. But his nature was divine, and therefore can only will to do what is within His divine nature.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/1/2008 10:26:51 AM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
The way I understand it, His physical body died. Having a body gave him his human attributes. But his nature was divine, and therefore can only will to do what is within His divine nature.
pls understand that i am in no way trying to denigrate Jesus, i am trying to maintain the mystery of the incarnation. your permise seems to becoming close to appolinarianism.
from this website link i have copied the following definition
"Apollinarianism was the heresy taught by Apollinaris the Younger, bishop of Laodicea in Syria about 361. He taught that the Logos of God, which became the divine nature of Christ, took the place of the rational human soul of Jesus and that the body of Christ was a glorified form of human nature. In other words, though Jesus was a man, He did not have a human mind but that the mind of Christ was solely divine. Apollinaris taught that the two natures of Christ could not coexist within one person. His solution was to lessen the human nature of Christ."
i understand Jesus to be fully God and fully man. but many are trying to remove Jesus human nature, if you remove His human nature then He is not fully human, He is God simply inhabiting a human form. i understand the incarnation to be more than that. can i explain it, certainly not. but i do know if i am to remain faithful to the incarnation i cannot limit his human nature.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/1/2008 11:24:04 AM
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drmark
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Excellent post, john_mark! Two thousand years after the Incarnation the urge to emphasize the divinity of Christ over His humanity is stronger than ever. But the fact remains that if a sinless Adam could sin in his humanity, then a sinless Jesus could sin in His humanity. It is loving grace that allows Adam, Jesus, and each of us to choose our will or God's Will. I echo your sentiment, j_m: I must remain faithful to the Incarnation!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/1/2008 3:01:25 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 432
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quote:
i understand Jesus to be fully God and fully man. but many are trying to remove Jesus human nature, if you remove His human nature then He is not fully human, He is God simply inhabiting a human form. i understand the incarnation to be more than that. can i explain it, certainly not. but i do know if i am to remain faithful to the incarnation i cannot limit his human nature.
This is fascinating! So just that I can wrap my brain around this.Does this mean that we could have God exist as a sinner?
That is the possibility under the position you have to remain faithful to is it not? I really need to know if this is even a remote possibility.Could Jesus who is God be a sinner?
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/1/2008 3:41:55 PM
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drmark
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quote:
This is fascinating! So just that I can wrap my brain around this.Does this mean that we could have God exist as a sinner? There's nothing "fascinating" about it. God is God and we are not. If God wished to "exist as a sinner" (whatever that means to you), He certainly has the capability.
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I really need to know if this is even a remote possibility. Why, sunofone, is this so important to you? Possibilities are hypothetical. The historical fact that Jesus Christ died as the perfect, sinless, unblemished Sacrificial Lamb for my sins is all that matters to me. In addition, I have the blessed assurance that because Jesus chose to obey the Father's Will, I also can choose to obey, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.
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Could Jesus who is God be a sinner? Jesus is the Second Person of the Triune Godhead. That does NOT mean He is identical to the Father. At this very moment, Jesus is seated at the Right Hand of the Father and in His glorified state is unable to ever sin again (just as we will be unable one day in Heaven). Who He was and what He could or could not do 2000 years ago is the unfathomable mystery of the Incarnation. It will not be settled on this discussion thread.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/1/2008 3:48:55 PM
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sunofone
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Mark in post # 68 I outlined why this topic is important to me.This is fascinating to me that one could believe,or the possibility could exist that God could exist as a sinner 
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/1/2008 4:12:47 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
This is fascinating! So just that I can wrap my brain around this.Does this mean that we could have God exist as a sinner?
That is the possibility under the position you have to remain faithful to is it not? I really need to know if this is even a remote possibility.Could Jesus who is God be a sinner?
He was made to be sin for us
2 cor 5
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
He became a curse for us
gal 3
3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree
He came in the likeness of sinful man
romans 8
8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man
we agree that jesus was fully God. so you are agruing that all the attributes of God must be in Jesus. was he fully man or not? if he was fully man would He not also have all the attributes of man? for the sake of not going off topic i dont believe that Jesus was born with a sin nature, i understand him to have the nature of adam.
i still believe that you have to be careful where you take this. without intending to be sarcastic in an earlier post i asked if Jesus is God and He died, does that mean God died? you cannot mimize the human body of Jesus. remember that the ressurection of the physical body of Jesus is the foundation of christianity
1 cor 15:16
For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/1/2008 4:25:02 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I think it's important how we see this Mark just for understanding sake.Lets say that it's important to see Jesus as capable of sinning,because it shows he can relate to us,and it proves that like him we can overcome.
Does that mean then that Gods expectation of Christians is to be sinless as Jesus was? I'm not talking keeping the ten commandments perfectly,I'm talking about truly overcoming our sin nature.Being perfect like Jesus was. Yes, this is exactly what I believe and is essentially aligned with Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine.
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I'm pretty sure we all agree that our perfection is positional.Jesus didn't come to show us how to be perfect,as in do like I did and you will no longer have a sin nature. Actually, I believe (as do most Wesleyan/Holiness theologians) that we are more than just "positionally" perfected. We are "made" perfect, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. Our standing with Christ is the same as our state in Christ. We are saved in our sins and from our sin. Christ provides both imputed and imparted righteousness for the sanctified Believer. Jesus did indeed come to "show us how to be perfect", but we can never do this of our own ability.
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Rather I believe that he first made us perfect through his substitutionary work,and his spirit,through our willful obedience brings us in line with Gods desire for us. Well, that's one understanding. My understanding is that God makes us perfect by sanctifying grace when we consecrate our entire being to Him and allow the HolySpirit to cleanse our heart from all sin.
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So through his work just like through the first Adam we inherit a position,however we are sanctified through our continued obedience to his word by his spirit. Again, some minor semantic differences. I would say that we are sanctified (just as we are saved) by God's grace through our faith. Our continued obedience is a result of our sanctification, not a means or cause of it.
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For me the sinlessness of God speaks to Gods unfailing ability to rescue me.When my life was on the line and there was no one who could help God sent his Son,and in sending his Son,I find it impossible to believe that God and all of heaven were somehow pensive,just hoping that Jesus wouldn't fail. I have never denied the sinlessness of God. I merely define it differently than you do. The very fact that Jesus did not fail means that I also have the ability not to fail, by His grace and power. Whether or not He could have failed is meaningless, since He did not fail!
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Jesus couldn't fail because Jesus was God,and God can't fail.Jesus was not just a man he was and is my hero.If a little boy can believe that Superman will save the day,then I can believe that God through Jesus will save me and he will not fail. Again, I disagree that the fact "Jesus was God" means that Jesus is identical to the Father. Jesus has already "saved the day" and that is what we are to believe as Christians.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/1/2008 5:07:27 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 239
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From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
But the fact remains that if a sinless Adam could sin in his humanity, then a sinless Jesus could sin in His humanity.
Dr, can you clarify this statement for me? Comparing Adam and Jesus is not a fair comparison. There wasn't an ounce of deity in Adam's being. That is why he sinned. Jesus, on the extremely obvious other hand, was and still is fully divine. That is why he couldn't sin.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/1/2008 5:15:19 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 239
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
do i understand your basic premise to be that Jesus could not sin becuase he was God and shared the attributes of God?
Close! He is also still God. I do believe that infallibility is an attribute of Deity and yes I am confident that both the Father and Son share the same attributes.
quote:
if i understand that correctly let me ask this. when Jesus died on the cross did God die or did Jesus do something that God could not do?
Who was Immanuel? If he wasn't God, who or what was he? Jesus, being fully divine, did die. That is what makes it so amazing, awesome, and mysterious.
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/1/2008 5:20:26 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 239
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Jesus is the Second Person of the Triune Godhead. That does NOT mean He is identical to the Father. At this very moment, Jesus is seated at the Right Hand of the Father and in His glorified state is unable to ever sin again (just as we will be unable one day in Heaven). Who He was and what He could or could not do 2000 years ago is the unfathomable mystery of the Incarnation. It will not be settled on this discussion thread.
Since you believe that His characteristics have changed, can I come to the logical conclusion that you disagree with Hebrews 13:8? If not, can you clarify your statement? Thanks!
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RE: Could Jesus have sinned? - 5/1/2008 5:33:53 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
Who was Immanuel? If he wasn't God, who or what was he? Jesus, being fully divine, did die. That is what makes it so amazing, awesome, and mysterious.
if the Son has all the attributes of the Father and the Son died that means that the Father can also die?
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