RE: Could Jesus have sinned?

RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Could Jesus have sinned?

Jesus was God so he was infallible

48% (27)

Jesus was tempted so he could have sinned

44% (25)

I am not sure, but am leaning toward Him being infallible

1% (1)

I am not sure, but am leaning toward him being fallible

3% (2)

I have no idea.

1% (1)

Total Votes : 56

(last vote on : 10/2/2008 9:16:00 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

Sabellius -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/28/2008 2:01:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW You said he was not tempted on moral issues. Post # 25 quote: Jesus was tempted but He was only tempted as something He could be tempted of as God. There were no immoral temptations that came to Christ. Post # 43. quote: To be tempted to do immorality would mean that God actually desired, no matter how brief, something that is contrary to His very nature and would undeify Himself. Which means that HE was NOT tempted IN ALL WAYS as we are. So that makes the Hebrews verse a lie. Um, how can you be tempted to do something that is not evil? How is that a temptation? First, myself and Ezra have demonstrated that for you above. Please interact with that before you begin vacuous arguments about lies. I was tempted to eat BBQ today, but instead I went with Mexican food. Please read Matthew 4. The things Jesus was truly tempted to do were things He could do as God-man or within the realm of the Incarnation. He was never tempted immorally, as the Hebrews passage clearly demonstrates His temptations were without sin. Do you think, if for one brief second, that Christ was tempted to murder? Fornicate?

Sabellius -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/28/2008 2:10:01 PM)
The will of Christ was subject to the will of the Father. He could in no wise sin because He was very God, and God had already foretold of the Messiah. The Old Testament prophesied of Jesus being born in Bethlehem. Do you believe it could have been born elsewhere? The Messianic prophecies also foretell Him being crucified and bones left unbroken. Does anyone believe it could have been otherwise? The same with Jesus who was fully God and man, and could not sin.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/28/2008 3:01:48 PM)
quote: He was never tempted immorally, as the Hebrews passage clearly demonstrates His temptations were without sin. Do you think, if for one brief second, that Christ was tempted to murder? Fornicate? Sabellius, I am really trying to comprehend this position of yours as it may be more a semantic difference than a theologically substantive one. Let's skip momentarily the first temptation since it may be clouded by physical desires (severe hunger after a prolonged fast). Christ's second temptation is clearly a test of His ability not to revel in His divine nature. Why do you consider that not be a moral test? Certainly, the opportunity to worship Satan in exchange for all the world's wealth has a definite moral basis, right? So if the temptations are real and have morally based choices associated with them, how can one say Christ was never tempted morally? Are pride and greed any less moral than murder and fornication?

Sabellius -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/28/2008 5:36:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark quote: He was never tempted immorally, as the Hebrews passage clearly demonstrates His temptations were without sin. Do you think, if for one brief second, that Christ was tempted to murder? Fornicate? Sabellius, I am really trying to comprehend this position of yours as it may be more a semantic difference than a theologically substantive one. Let's skip momentarily the first temptation since it may be clouded by physical desires (severe hunger after a prolonged fast). Christ's second temptation is clearly a test of His ability not to revel in His divine nature. Why do you consider that not be a moral test? Certainly, the opportunity to worship Satan in exchange for all the world's wealth has a definite moral basis, right? So if the temptations are real and have morally based choices associated with them, how can one say Christ was never tempted morally? Are pride and greed any less moral than murder and fornication? Comprehend? Here is the irrefutable point. The only way, I repeat the only way, that Jesus "could" sin is if He was only a man. Only if we can consider Him as only man, apart from His divine person, could He attain a propensity to sin. (If we do so we have nicely accomplished Nestorianism btw) Was that possible? No, He was both fully God and man. Therefore, since this separation cannot take place, and would violate the union of the Father and Son, Jesus could not and did not sin. It is really that simple. Since Jesus did not possess a sin nature, there was nothing within Him to respond to immoral temptation. People sin because there is an inner response to the outer temptation. While on earth Jesus said that no one could take His life except He lay it down willingly (John 10:18). It is congruent with Scripture to suggest then, if Christ had authority over life and death, it is also possible that he had authority over sin. Jesus was a perfect example for us, and His impeccability only supports this. Some approach the idea of "temptation" completely backward, IMHO. I do not believe the purpose of the temptations were to see if Christ could sin, but to show that He could not sin. If we look closely at when the temptations occur we also can see that they are at the very beginning of Christ's earthly ministry. Israel had lots of warnings that this indeed was a Messiah who was God and man. Jesus was their unique savior. When you look at the temptations of Christ in Matthew 4, it was not Satan who initiated the temptation but the Holy Spirit (Matt. 4:1). If Christ could have sinned, then the Holy Spirit solicited Christ to sin, but that is something God does not do (James 1:13). If we say Jesus could sin, then we should evidence where Jesus was even tempted to do evil that would indeed bring about sin? As it concerns the Biblical evidence you'll not find any there. Jesus was tempted, surely. I do not believe Jesus experienced any immoral temptations however. This does not make him void of human nature. Sin is not part of human nature, it was later added. quote: Romans 8:3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: The word "likeness" is used here. This clearly does not mean exactness. In fact it implies that there is something concerning it that does not necessarily correspond. Christ looked like sinful humanity. Again sin is not the property of humanity at all. James, the brother of Jesus, made it clear that temptation only becomes sin when the lust that brought the temptation is conceived (James 1:15-16). It is possible to be tempted and not sin, as many of us can testify of this fact. It is a fact that temptations can be both sinful and innocent. In fact, James 1:2-3 speaks to believers about “divers temptations”, i.e. innocent temptations, for the trying of our faith. As I have pointed out I hold that Christ could not sin, yet was tempted. Thus, those temptations were indeed genuine because they were temptations that he a. could do, and b. could feel. 1. Jesus was the God-Man. 2. God cannot sin and Jesus, doing the will of the Father, was tempted to do things that only He as God could do (miracles) without undeifying Himself. 3. Thus, the temptations of Christ were genuine. W.G.T. Shedd comments, quote: “The appeal of Satan, in the last of the three temptations, to a supposed pride and ambition in Christ was met with the avaunt: “Get you hence, Satan.” Christ had no sinful lust of any sort. This is taught in Christ’s own words: “The prince of this world comes and has nothing in me” (John 14:30). It is also taught in Heb. 4:15: “We have a high priest who was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” This text teaches that the temptations of Christ were “without sin” in their source and nature and not merely, as the passage is sometimes explained, that they were “without sin” in their result. The meaning is not that our Lord was tempted in every respect exactly as fallen man is—by inward lust as well as by other temptations—only he did not outwardly yield to any temptation; but that he was tempted in every way that man is, excepting by that class of temptations that are sinful because originating in evil and forbidden desire.” quote: Hebrews 4:15 KJV: For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. I concur with Shedd that the “temptations of Christ were ‘without sin’ in their source and nature…” Some translations make such an interpretation very possible, while others do not. "likeness" is Greek homoiotes which refers to similarity and not necessarily exactness. The BAGD says it means “in quite the same way” yet this can easily refer to the fact that Christ was tempted just like we are, yet those temptations were “without sin” or “apart from sin”. I believe that the most compelling evidence on this matter is scripture itself. Hebrews 4:15 is a crucial text to impeccability and the nature of Christ’s temptations. I do feel that the “identity” of Christ is the most compelling evidence for impeccability; however, I also feel that the text also creates a frame-work for that—His temptations were without sin or evil doing. Compellingly, the scriptures never tell us of a time when Christ was tempted immorally—as the God-Man this would be impossible to reconcile. Shedd went on to say: quote: If Christ, like fallen man, were subject to that class of forbidden appetences and selfish desires mentioned in Gal. 5:19, 21, namely, “idolatry, hatred, emulation, envyings, murder, wrath, uncleanness, drunkenness, and such like,” the dignity and perfection of his character would be gone, and he could not be looked up to with the reverence that he is. The words of the dead kings to the fallen king of Babylon would apply: “Are you also become weak, as we? Are you become like unto us?” (Isa. 14:10) To say that Christ was tempted immorally is to say that Christ was tempted and felt the urge to succumb to those immoral temptations, e.g. stealing, murder, and fornication. Whether they are minimal and fleeting such a temptation is contrary to the character of God and the Union. My argument, I believe, can be summed up like this: 1. Genuine temptations are felt and desired, if only for a “split second”. 2. The nature of God, in Christ, excludes desires of immorality. 3. Therefore, God—in Christ—was tempted but tempted apart from immorality. Some have said that Jesus could not have worshiped Satan without committing moral sin, for that would have been idolatry (See Matthew 4). Although I do agree that it would have been a moral sin for Christ to worship Satan, I do not agree that it was even a temptation for Him. quote: Matthew 4:10: Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.' ESV Notice that Christ does not even hesitate but “resists the devil” and commands for Him to be gone. Jesus went on to cite scripture. This is apparently not one of the temptations. quote: James 1:13: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: This passage is saying that there is nothing in God that has a tendency to wrong; there can be nothing presented from without to induce him to do wrong. The “tempted” here I believe refers to the antithesis of innocent temptation—an evil doing—because the passage fully declares that “…God cannot be tempted with evil…” This passage doesn’t state that God cannot be tempted; moreover it states that God cannot be tempted “with evil”. The Union does present some complexities in Christology for us to sort out. However, in those I do feel that Jesus exhibited characteristics strictly related to pre-fall human inclinations (hunger). When we fast we feel tempted to eat. This temptation is indeed a human inclination but it is not evil or a sin. I do not feel any of those inclinations violated or were at any time contrary to the nature of God “in Christ”. All this obviously places Christ in a “category” of His own. However the phrase "only begotten" should never lose its meaning. Some humans excel in areas that others do not, does this make them non-human? No. Some humans do not feel the urge for certain vices, yet others do. Is this and indication of different species? No.

Prairiehiker -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/28/2008 5:49:58 PM)
So, did Jesus have a choice when Satan tempted him? By that, i mean, did he have to make a choice to say no?

earthless -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/28/2008 7:42:12 PM)
The clear teaching of Scripture is that Jesus was impeccable - Jesus could not have sinned. If He could have sinned, He would still be able to sin today because He retains the same essence He did while living on earth. He is the God-Man, the theoantrphos - and will forever remain so, having full deity and full humanity so included in one person as to be indivisible. To believe that Jesus could sin is to believe that God could sin. Colossians 1:19, "For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell." Colossians 2:9, "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Although Jesus is fully human, He was not born with the same sinful nature that we are born with. He certainly was tempted in the same way we are, in that temptations were put before Him by Satan, yet remained sinless because God is incapable of sinning. It is against His very nature (Matthew 4:1; Hebrews 2:18, 4:15; James 1:13). Sin is by definition a trespass of the Law. God created the Law, and the Law is by nature what God would or would not do; therefore, sin is anything that God would not do by His very nature. To be tempted is not in and of itself sinful. A person could tempt you with something you have no desire to do, such as committing murder or participating in sexual perversions. You probably have no desire whatsoever to take part in these actions, but you were still tempted because someone placed the possibility before you. There are at least two definitions for tempted: 1) Tempted - To have a sinful proposition suggested to you by someone or something outside yourself or by your own sin nature. 2) Tempted - To consider actually participating in a sinful act and the possible pleasures and consequences of such an act to the degree that the act is already taking place in your mind. The first definition does not describe a sinful act/thought, the second does. When you dwell upon a sinful act and consider how you might be able to bring it to pass, you have crossed the line of sin. Jesus was tempted in the fashion of definition 1, except that He was never tempted by a sin nature because it did not exist within Him. Satan proposed certain sinful acts to Jesus, but He had no inner desire to participate in the sin. Hence, He was tempted like we are but remained sinless. Those who hold to peccability believe that if Jesus could not have sinned, He could not have truly experienced temptation, and therefore could not truly empathize with our struggles and temptations against sin. We have to remember that one does not have to experience something in order to understand it. God knows everything about everything. While God has never had the desire to sin, and has most definitely never sinned - God knows and understands what sin is. God knows and understands what it is like to be tempted. Jesus can empathize with our temptations because He knows…not because He has “experienced” all the same things we have. Jesus knows what it is like to be tempted, but He does not know what it is like to sin. This does not prevent Him from assisting us. We are tempted with sins that are common to man (1 Corinthians 10:13). These sins generally can be boiled down to three different types: the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life (1 John 2:16). Examine the temptation and sin of Eve as well as the temptation of Jesus, and you will find that the temptations for each came from these three categories. Jesus was tempted in every way and in every area that we are, but remained perfectly holy. Although our corrupt natures will have the inner desire to participate in some sins, we have the ability to overcome sin because we are no longer slaves to sin but rather slaves of God (Romans 6, especially verses 2 and 16-22).

Prairiehiker -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/28/2008 8:02:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: earthless The clear teaching of Scripture is that Jesus was impeccable - Jesus could not have sinned. If He could have sinned, He would still be able to sin today because He retains the same essence He did while living on earth. He is the God-Man, the theoantrphos - and will forever remain so, having full deity and full humanity so included in one person as to be indivisible. To believe that Jesus could sin is to believe that God could sin. Colossians 1:19, "For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell." Colossians 2:9, "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Although Jesus is fully human, He was not born with the same sinful nature that we are born with. He certainly was tempted in the same way we are, in that temptations were put before Him by Satan, yet remained sinless because God is incapable of sinning. It is against His very nature (Matthew 4:1; Hebrews 2:18, 4:15; James 1:13). Sin is by definition a trespass of the Law. God created the Law, and the Law is by nature what God would or would not do; therefore, sin is anything that God would not do by His very nature. To be tempted is not in and of itself sinful. A person could tempt you with something you have no desire to do, such as committing murder or participating in sexual perversions. You probably have no desire whatsoever to take part in these actions, but you were still tempted because someone placed the possibility before you. There are at least two definitions for tempted: 1) Tempted - To have a sinful proposition suggested to you by someone or something outside yourself or by your own sin nature. 2) Tempted - To consider actually participating in a sinful act and the possible pleasures and consequences of such an act to the degree that the act is already taking place in your mind. The first definition does not describe a sinful act/thought, the second does. When you dwell upon a sinful act and consider how you might be able to bring it to pass, you have crossed the line of sin. Jesus was tempted in the fashion of definition 1, except that He was never tempted by a sin nature because it did not exist within Him. Satan proposed certain sinful acts to Jesus, but He had no inner desire to participate in the sin. Hence, He was tempted like we are but remained sinless. Those who hold to peccability believe that if Jesus could not have sinned, He could not have truly experienced temptation, and therefore could not truly empathize with our struggles and temptations against sin. We have to remember that one does not have to experience something in order to understand it. God knows everything about everything. While God has never had the desire to sin, and has most definitely never sinned - God knows and understands what sin is. God knows and understands what it is like to be tempted. Jesus can empathize with our temptations because He knows…not because He has “experienced” all the same things we have. Jesus knows what it is like to be tempted, but He does not know what it is like to sin. This does not prevent Him from assisting us. We are tempted with sins that are common to man (1 Corinthians 10:13). These sins generally can be boiled down to three different types: the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life (1 John 2:16). Examine the temptation and sin of Eve as well as the temptation of Jesus, and you will find that the temptations for each came from these three categories. Jesus was tempted in every way and in every area that we are, but remained perfectly holy. Although our corrupt natures will have the inner desire to participate in some sins, we have the ability to overcome sin because we are no longer slaves to sin but rather slaves of God (Romans 6, especially verses 2 and 16-22). Thank you. This is really what I believed though I couldn't articulate it.

Ezra -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/28/2008 11:34:47 PM)
quote: Some of you are misunderstanding the concept of "fully human". Christ was not just "fully human". He was "fully SINLESSLY human" and simultaneously FULLY DIVINE. And that puts an entirely different light on the temptations of Christ. When you look at the complete indivisible nature of Christ, He simply could not sin. Otherwise we would have needed another Savior. It is truly amazing that there are Christians out there (and a vast number) who really have no clue about the nature of the Lord Jesus Christ, "in whom dwelleth the fulness of the Godhead bodily". It goes back to a lack of solid teaching on the Doctrine of Christ in many evangelical churches.

DaveW -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 6:43:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sabellius I was tempted to eat BBQ today, but instead I went with Mexican food. That is not temptation to sin. quote: Please read Matthew 4. The things Jesus was truly tempted to do were things He could do as God-man or within the realm of the Incarnation. So bowing down and worshiping the devil is NOT sinful or immoral? quote: He was never tempted immorally, as the Hebrews passage clearly demonstrates His temptations were without sin. It was not the temptations that were without sin, (how can a temptation sin?) but He Himself was tempted by sin but did not succumb to it. You are twisting the plain meaning of the text to fit your theory. quote: Do you think, if for one brief second, that Christ was tempted to murder? Fornicate? Absolutely. I am sure there were times when he wanted to kill his detractors. Many of the women who followed him had been prostitutes. He probably (can't scripturally prove it) had plenty of offers with his own desires on overdrive. HE NEVER EVER GAVE IN. end of story.

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 7:47:21 AM)
quote: Absolutely. I am sure there were times when he wanted to kill his detractors. Many of the women who followed him had been prostitutes. He probably (can't scripturally prove it) had plenty of offers with his own desires on overdrive. Then at this point he would have been guilty of sin.Check out Matthew chapter five again.Jesus lays it out,as to where sin truly begins.It begins in the heart.To say that Jesus wanted to kill is to say that Jesus was not pure in heart,he did not want to bless those who persecuted him,he did not want to turn the other cheek.He wasn't really blessed when men persecuted him. In other words your suggestion that he wanted to kill makes Jesus a fraud,one who is only capable of aspiring to perfection,but not fully able to grasp it! I guess on the cross when Jesus prayed forgive them Father,privately he he was really thinking,I so want to Kill you all right now?[:@]

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 9:59:55 AM)
I've been drawn back to this topic although I've tried to resist it. Now I can be wrong about everything I'm about to say,and if so I will stand corrected. I firmly believe that Dave and Mark and others who believe that Jesus could have sinned do so because they feel it would have been robbery if Jesus was not fully human like us. They believe that he had to have been exactly like us to understand us,and also to lend evidence that our sinful nature is not inescapable.That we to like Jesus can be sinless,or at the very least overcome sin as he did if we like him yield ourselves perfectly to the Holy Spirit as Jesus did. The scripture that points to Jesus being tempted at all points,only strengthens this position.The inference being that Jesus feels our weakness because he too was tempted just like we are.I mean it says it plain as day in scripture. Our Highpriest can be touched with feelings of our infirmities,he was at all points tempted like we are, just without sin. The only way to clear this up is to agree that Jesus was in fact fully human,on this I'm sure we all agree.But dismissing just for the moment that we also all agree that at the very same time he was fully God. We have define and come to agreement as to Jesus nature.Was he born sinful like us? or was he born sinless like Adam? If we can not agree that he was born sinless like Adam,then everything I'm about to say will easily be discarded. Assuming that we all agree that Jesus was born sinless like Adam we can unravel this question of his ability to sin. Before Adam disobeyed God,sin was without both Adam and the world(Roman 5vs12)In order for sin to enter there had to be an entry point(Ist John 2vs16)Lust of the flesh,eyes and pride of life. (Genesis 3 vs6)Eve when she was tempted was tempted at these three points.The lust for food,the lust of the eyes,and the pride of being made wise. Jesus when he was tempted was also tempted at these three points(Matthew 4vs1-11)Being hungry he was tempted to make food,He taken to a mountain and shown all the kingdoms of the world the lust of the eyes and the third not so easily apparent the pride of life.If you are the Son of God cast yourself down,here Jesus was tempted to abort his mission,to take his rightful claim to defy death. Now the point that I raise is this Jesus being tempted at all points is not at all suggesting that Jesus was tempted to beat his Wife or view pornography,molest a child,use drugs,have sex with men,or animals. This is not at all what is meant by his being tempted at all points like as we,all points refer to and is strictly limited to the access points or entry points of sin.Unlike Adam Jesus did not yield or allow sin a place of entry,and in doing so unlike Adam he remained sinless,unblemished. He knows what Adam felt to be tempted at these entry points this is real and certain. He was hungry and both wanted to eat and needed to eat,Jesus knew what it was to have a human will that must be subjected to the will of God at all times,and he also had an appreciation for life,and continued fellowship with God,which he understood would cease if only temporarily when he bore our sins and died. The temptation was real to resist this end as evidenced by his prayer in the garden.So Jesus can sympathize with us because he knows what it is to be human,he lived the human condition. It was just without sin as was the first Adam before he yielded to sins call.The fact that he was also fully God at the same time gave him the ability to be impervious to temptation and sin. For sin is to miss the mark,the mark is the standard set up by God,therefore it is impossible for Jesus to miss his own mark,he is the mark,if we believe that he was in fact God.

LBolt -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 10:46:02 AM)
quote: Then at this point he would have been guilty of sin.Check out Matthew chapter five again.Jesus lays it out,as to where sin truly begins.It begins in the heart.To say that Jesus wanted to kill is to say that Jesus was not pure in heart,he did not want to bless those who persecuted him,he did not want to turn the other cheek.He wasn't really blessed when men persecuted him. The sin that's in one's heart pertain to a lustful or fantasiful desire to commit an immoral act. This was not the case with the Messiah. He was not fantasizing about committing adultery, murder etc. The temptation of Christ had to be a real temptation to sin otherwise it wasn't temptation. Heb. says that He was in all points tempted yet was without sin. Therefore, He is able to identify with us and offer up intercessory prayer on our behalf. He understands us. Glory to YAH!!

Beanteaser -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 11:08:00 AM)
This has been an interesting thread so far but I am actually disappointed in the the results. I am completely surprised that half of the people here (so far) believe in a fallible God. What a shame!! I think the main reason why is half the people fail to understand what the word "tempt" means. A simple minute or two of study can reveal that "tempt" in Matthew 4:7 DOES NOT MEAN "ENTICE!!!!" It simply means "test." Using the resources on this website, the literal meaning of "tempt" are 1. to prove, test, thoroughly 2. to put to proof God's character and power. Satan was objectively testing Jesus to see if He COULD sin. He wasn't subjectively enticing him to see if He WILL sin. The events that took place in the wilderness proved to Satan that Jesus was, and still is God! Understand now? Hebrews 4:15 is another verse that half the people here fail to understand. What does "weakness" mean? Well, if we consider the Greek word , which is "Astheneia," we know that it is almost always referring to physical maladies. A few examples are: 1 Timothy 5:23, Acts 28:9, John 11:4, and Luke 8:2. I will concede the point that Astheneia could mean a moral weakness, but it is usually referring to some kind of physical weakness. I think Hebrews 4:15 should be understood this way.....Jesus was "tested" [in this case "tested" in the most general sense] in all manner of physical maladies like what we humans face, and yet in spite of His physical weakness during these tests [hunger, thirst, fatigue, and especially His scourging and death by crucifixion], He never sinned--a remarkable thing that makes Him unique among men. (I quoted this interpretation from one of my Bible teachers)

DaveW -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 11:58:37 AM)
I have never did drugs. However, I grew up in a generation where many or most did. I have known people who did cocaine, LSD, STP, THC, peyote, psilocybin, speed and opiates such as Heroin. Abusing drugs is sinful. I think we all agree. If we have as High Priest one who knows what we are going thru first hand, that has to include the person going thru heroin withdrawl, where every cell of his body is screaming for just a bit more of the wretched stuff. He knows this first hand.

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 1:26:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW I have never did drugs. However, I grew up in a generation where many or most did. I have known people who did cocaine, LSD, STP, THC, peyote, psilocybin, speed and opiates such as Heroin. Abusing drugs is sinful. I think we all agree. If we have as High Priest one who knows what we are going thru first hand, that has to include the person going thru heroin withdrawl, where every cell of his body is screaming for just a bit more of the wretched stuff. He knows this first hand. Dave,and to all those who feel the way you do.I'm not trying to win an argument here,and my opinion may be as wrong as I feel yours is.What I feel you guys are saying is that Jesus had to feel what we feel in order to be the compassionate High priest that the writer of Hebrews talks about.You feel that somehow Jesus had to share in our human condition in order for him to be considered fully human. This in my opinion is falwed thinking on so many levels.We have no problem understanding that Adam was human,and at one time unlike us was sinless. Yet Jesus could not have existed as Adam once did,he must only have existed as you and I exist. If this were true Jesus would not be sinless,at best he would be an overcomer of the sinful condition.While Jesus was still a child before he was led in the wilderness to be tempted he would have both been sinful and committed many sins in his lifetime. PerhapsHe would have profaned the Sabbath by wanting to engage in some forbidden activity,he would have lied when he was caught doing something he shouldn't I mean you get the point,if he were born just like us,sin would have been reigning from his first breath,the fact that this is not true,is evidenced by his sinless life, this statement alone lends evidence that he was not born like us,but rather the first Adam. Now like you I don't know what is to crave drugs,I do however no what it is to overeat. I know it's not the same thing,yet I cam empathize with the cravings of a drug user,because I know what it is to crave something and find it irresistible to be without it. Jesus can not by experience identify with our sinful condition,and all it's vile affection,what he can identify with is our human condition.Jesus knows what it is to be human,and have a will.He knows what it is to be hungry,tired etc... In this he can identify with our failings and shortcomings.Jesus understands that at the heart of sin,is our human will,a will that desires to be satisfied and exercised. Jesus knows us because he lived just as we live,in the flesh,not because he experienced every conceivable sin known to man.Jesus knows the pull of the human will to exalt itself above the will of God,and thats all of the sin condition he needs to know in order to empathize with us.

john_mark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 1:42:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunofone Dave,and to all those who feel the way you do.I'm not trying to win an argument here,and my opinion may be as wrong as I feel yours is.What I feel you guys are saying is that Jesus had to feel what we feel in order to be the compassionate High priest that the writer of Hebrews talks about.You feel that somehow Jesus had to share in our human condition in order for him to be considered fully human. This in my opinion is falwed thinking on so many levels.We have no problem understanding that Adam was human,and at one time unlike us was sinless. Yet Jesus could not have existed as Adam once did,he must only have existed as you and I exist. i agree with you, i think we are all conscience of the difficulty of this subject. can i ask about this statement? " You feel that somehow Jesus had to share in our human condition in order for him to be considered fully human" , do you think that Jesus physical body suffered the effects of adam's sin? do you think that His body was like adam's or like ours? i dont want to get into a discussion about a sin nature because we will never resolve that, but i am curious if you think Jesus physical body suffered from adam's sin like our does, and where you draw the line between how much He was like us to in order to consider Him fully human.

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 1:46:35 PM)
I believe he was like Adam before he sinned,sinless.I meant to say sinful condition where I stated human condition.I don't believe Jesus was born in sin,I believe we are born in sin. I believe Jesus came after the similitude of Adam which makes him fully human just not sinful like us who come after or from Adam.

john_mark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 1:56:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunofone I believe he was like Adam before he sinned,sinless.I meant to say sinful condition where I stated human condition.I don't believe Jesus was born in sin,I believe we are born in sin. I believe Jesus came after the similitude of Adam which makes him fully human just not sinful like us who come after or from Adam. just to be sure that i understand you, your saying that Jesus was not born into a body that was marked for physical death, that he was born into a body like adam had before the fall?

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 2:04:55 PM)
I think it's important how we see this Mark just for understanding sake.Lets say that it's important to see Jesus as capable of sinning,because it shows he can relate to us,and it proves that like him we can overcome. Does that mean then that Gods expectation of Christians is to be sinless as Jesus was? I'm not talking keeping the ten commandments perfectly,I'm talking about truly overcoming our sin nature.Being perfect like Jesus was. I'm pretty sure we all agree that our perfection is positional.Jesus didn't come to show us how to be perfect,as in do like I did and you will no longer have a sin nature. Rather I believe that he first made us perfect through his substitutionary work,and his spirit,through our willful obedience brings us in line with Gods desire for us. So through his work just like through the first Adam we inherit a position,however we are sanctified through our continued obedience to his word by his spirit. For me the sinlessness of God speaks to Gods unfailing ability to rescue me.When my life was on the line and there was no one who could help God sent his Son,and in sending his Son,I find it impossible to believe that God and all of heaven were somehow pensive,just hoping that Jesus wouldn't fail. Jesus couldn't fail because Jesus was God,and God can't fail.Jesus was not just a man he was and is my hero.If a little boy can believe that Superman will save the day,then I can believe that God through Jesus will save me and he will not fail.

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 2:14:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: john_mark quote: ORIGINAL: sunofone I believe he was like Adam before he sinned,sinless.I meant to say sinful condition where I stated human condition.I don't believe Jesus was born in sin,I believe we are born in sin. I believe Jesus came after the similitude of Adam which makes him fully human just not sinful like us who come after or from Adam. just to be sure that i understand you, your saying that Jesus was not born into a body that was marked for physical death, that he was born into a body like adam had before the fall? I don't mean to judge you harshly Mark,but I thought when you asked me that question,that it was a trap of sorts. Specifically if he were not born like us his body would not have been under the penalty of death. Of course this goes off topic,but I will respond first by saying yes you understand my position correctly. As for death of the physical body,Adam was given access to two trees in the garden in particular,one was a tree of life the other a tree g/e. We know that disobedience brought forth sin and sin death.What was the tree of life there for if he was already destined to live forever?Did the body he possessed have a death sentence or expiration date on it,before he sinned? Ultimately Jesus bore our sins and took with it the penalty of death,as he stated no man takes his life he laid it down.So sorry if I jumped the gun on you.

john_mark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 2:42:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunofone I don't mean to judge you harshly Mark,but I thought when you asked me that question,that it was a trap of sorts. Specifically if he were not born like us his body would not have been under the penalty of death. no i wasnt trying to trap you, i hadnt heard your viewpoint before and was just trying to understand it. the idea that Jesus was like adam in all ways peeked my curiosity. as you stated, adam had access to the tree of life in the garden, when he was expelled he no longer had that access and that brought on physical death. is it your understanding that Jesus had access to the tree of life thru His divine nature? or am i misunderstanding you, is it your understanding that Jesus body was subject to physical death had He not died on the cross? sorry for my confusion.

sunofone -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 3:40:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: john_mark quote: ORIGINAL: sunofone I don't mean to judge you harshly Mark,but I thought when you asked me that question,that it was a trap of sorts. Specifically if he were not born like us his body would not have been under the penalty of death. no i wasnt trying to trap you, i hadnt heard your viewpoint before and was just trying to understand it. the idea that Jesus was like adam in all ways peeked my curiosity. as you stated, adam had access to the tree of life in the garden, when he was expelled he no longer had that access and that brought on physical death. is it your understanding that Jesus had access to the tree of life thru His divine nature? or am i misunderstanding you, is it your understanding that Jesus body was subject to physical death had He not died on the cross? sorry for my confusion. Sorry I judged you unfairly.In short Jesus didn't die because his body was under some sin debt.He died because he willfully subjected himself to death.

Sabellius -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 4:15:59 PM)
The only way Jesus could sin if He was only a man. If Jesus could sin then is besides the point. Was Jesus just a man? No. Not if you read the Holy Scriptures.

Sabellius -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 4:23:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW quote: ORIGINAL: Sabellius I was tempted to eat BBQ today, but instead I went with Mexican food. That is not temptation to sin. quote: Please read Matthew 4. The things Jesus was truly tempted to do were things He could do as God-man or within the realm of the Incarnation. So bowing down and worshiping the devil is NOT sinful or immoral? DaveW, I enjoy the discussion but you are not keeping up. I have already addressed these points. Please interact with them and indicate what you might see as my flawed understanding. Some have said that Jesus could not have worshiped Satan without committing moral sin, for that would have been idolatry (See Matthew 4). Although I do agree that it would have been a moral sin for Christ to worship Satan, I do not agree that it was even a temptation for Him. Matthew 4:10: Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.' ESV Notice that Christ does not even hesitate but “resists the devil” and commands for Him to be gone. Jesus went on to cite scripture. This is apparently not one of the temptations. He was never tempted immorally, as the Hebrews passage clearly demonstrates His temptations were without sin. quote: ORIGINAL: DaveWIt was not the temptations that were without sin, (how can a temptation sin?) but He Himself was tempted by sin but did not succumb to it. You are twisting the plain meaning of the text to fit your theory. quote: Do you think, if for one brief second, that Christ was tempted to murder? Fornicate? quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW Absolutely. I am sure there were times when he wanted to kill his detractors. Many of the women who followed him had been prostitutes. He probably (can't scripturally prove it) had plenty of offers with his own desires on overdrive. HE NEVER EVER GAVE IN. end of story. This is purely speculative and totally incongruent with what the Scriptures actually teach about the union of the humanity and deity of Jesus Christ. See my post above. Here is a question, was Jesus just a man?

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/29/2008 4:39:36 PM)
quote: I've been drawn back to this topic although I've tried to resist it. Is this a real temptation, sunofone? [;)] quote: I firmly believe that Dave and Mark and others who believe that Jesus could have sinned do so because they feel it would have been robbery if Jesus was not fully human like us. Well, I don't see how "robbery" fits in, but we do believe God's Word is true and so far no one has referenced Scripture that Jesus, Second person of the Godhead, was incapable of sinning during His Incarnation. quote: Assuming that we all agree that Jesus was born sinless like Adam we can unravel this question of his ability to sin. No disagreement here, sunofone. Both Jesus and Adam were born sinless. quote: In order for sin to enter there had to be an entry point(Ist John 2vs16)Lust of the flesh,eyes and pride of life. (Genesis 3 vs6)Eve when she was tempted was tempted at these three points.The lust for food,the lust of the eyes,and the pride of being made wise. Jesus when he was tempted was also tempted at these three points(Matthew 4vs1-11) Wonderful points, sunofone! I was looking for the 3 kinds of sin yesterday and couldn't find the 1 John reference. Thanks so much! quote: This is not at all what is meant by his being tempted at all points like as we,all points refer to and is strictly limited to the access points or entry points of sin.Unlike Adam Jesus did not yield or allow sin a place of entry,and in doing so unlike Adam he remained sinless,unblemished. Absolutely correct! Both men were born sinless, both had choices to make, only One made the right (sinless) choice. quote: Jesus knew what it was to have a human will that must be subjected to the will of God at all times I find this to be the key point of your entire post. A Jesus who could not sin would be a Jesus who had no free human will, and thus a Jesus not fully human in His Incarnation. It's an esoteric concept, but if God has no "free will", how could He create mankind with one?! quote: The temptation was real to resist this end as evidenced by his prayer in the garden.So Jesus can sympathize with us because he knows what it is to be human,he lived the human condition. Exactly what I've been saying for two pages now. Thanks for putting it a little differently. quote: It was just without sin as was the first Adam before he yielded to sins call.The fact that he was also fully God at the same time gave him the ability to be impervious to temptation and sin. And similarly, we can be able not to sin during temptation when the perfect Love of Christ is in control of our entire being!

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