RE: Could Jesus have sinned?

RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Could Jesus have sinned?

Jesus was God so he was infallible

48% (27)

Jesus was tempted so he could have sinned

44% (25)

I am not sure, but am leaning toward Him being infallible

1% (1)

I am not sure, but am leaning toward him being fallible

3% (2)

I have no idea.

1% (1)

Total Votes : 56

(last vote on : 10/2/2008 9:16:00 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

FroMan -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/26/2008 3:53:47 PM)
Jesus laid aside his divinity while he was on earth. He didn't sin because he lived empowered by the Holy Spirit, the same way you can I can. Everything Jesus did was through the Spirit. He has sent the Spirit and we can do all he did, even great things because of the Holy Spirit. Jesus faced every temptation and refused to commit sin and turn from God. He could have, but he didn't. To say that Jesus couldn't have sinned means that you are emphasizing his Godhood over his manhood, which implies that Jesus wasn't fully man. I am telling you that Scripture points to the fact that Jesus is 100% human. His refusal to sin, like I said, is through the Holy Spirit's empowerment, not because Jesus is God. Paul tells us that he laid aside his divinity taking the role of servant while he was here on earth. That's what he did. He was 100% human and 100% capable of sinning. Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin." If Jesus couldn't really have sinned, then this verse can be deemed as incorrect or false. Our High Priest, was tempted in the way we are, yet is without sin. Like Dr. Mark and others pointed out above, "it cannot be a real temptation without the capacity to succumb to it!"

1love1God1way -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/26/2008 7:44:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FroMan Jesus laid aside his divinity while he was on earth. No. He took up humanity. He never lost his divinity.

Heavendweller -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/26/2008 8:55:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FroMan Jesus laid aside his divinity while he was on earth. He didn't sin because he lived empowered by the Holy Spirit, the same way you can I can. Everything Jesus did was through the Spirit. He has sent the Spirit and we can do all he did, even great things because of the Holy Spirit. Jesus faced every temptation and refused to commit sin and turn from God. He could have, but he didn't. To say that Jesus couldn't have sinned means that you are emphasizing his Godhood over his manhood, which implies that Jesus wasn't fully man. I am telling you that Scripture points to the fact that Jesus is 100% human. His refusal to sin, like I said, is through the Holy Spirit's empowerment, not because Jesus is God. Paul tells us that he laid aside his divinity taking the role of servant while he was here on earth. That's what he did. He was 100% human and 100% capable of sinning. Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin." If Jesus couldn't really have sinned, then this verse can be deemed as incorrect or false. Our High Priest, was tempted in the way we are, yet is without sin. Froman, You have a misunderstanding as regards the nature of the Trinity as well as to the Deity of Christ. (Look at all that I have bolded and underlined) There is so much opposed to true Christian doctrine in your post, I don't know where to begin! Your views are alligned with Gnosticism and are opposed to the declarations of the earliest Church councils that addressed Christ's nature and His divinity. Heavendweller

Sabellius -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/26/2008 10:56:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FroMan Jesus laid aside his divinity while he was on earth. He didn't sin because he lived empowered by the Holy Spirit, the same way you can I can. Everything Jesus did was through the Spirit. He has sent the Spirit and we can do all he did, even great things because of the Holy Spirit. Jesus faced every temptation and refused to commit sin and turn from God. He could have, but he didn't. To say that Jesus couldn't have sinned means that you are emphasizing his Godhood over his manhood, which implies that Jesus wasn't fully man. I am telling you that Scripture points to the fact that Jesus is 100% human. His refusal to sin, like I said, is through the Holy Spirit's empowerment, not because Jesus is God. Paul tells us that he laid aside his divinity taking the role of servant while he was here on earth. That's what he did. He was 100% human and 100% capable of sinning. Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin." If Jesus couldn't really have sinned, then this verse can be deemed as incorrect or false. Our High Priest, was tempted in the way we are, yet is without sin. Like Dr. Mark and others pointed out above, "it cannot be a real temptation without the capacity to succumb to it!" The Scriptures, nor Kenosis as a theological concept teach that Jesus gave up His divinity. This is completely incompatible with a Christian Worldview. Christ gave up his independent exercise of divinity, and was subject to the will of the Father.

FroMan -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/26/2008 11:02:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sabellius Christ gave up his independent exercise of divinity That is what I meant in my post. Jesus didn't use his divinity while he was on earth. I just didn't say what I meant to say correctly... My bad, my bad.

Sabellius -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/26/2008 11:10:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FroMan quote: ORIGINAL: Sabellius Christ gave up his independent exercise of divinity That is what I meant in my post. Jesus didn't use his divinity while he was on earth. I just didn't say what I meant to say correctly... My bad, my bad. Cool. I thought that may be the case, but then again I am a Oneness Pentecostal on a Trinitarian forum so who knows who or "what" else might be on here, huh?

Ezra -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/26/2008 11:14:50 PM)
quote: If it were impossible for him to sin, the concept of temptation becomes meaningless. Not in the least. The temptation could be very real, very powerful, and very enticing. But if the person being tempted is immune from that temptation, it has no impact whatsoever. Let's assume A loves ice cream to the point that he can never say no it, and when offered gorges himself on it. Let's assume B has absolutely no interest in ice cream, but could be tempted with chocolates. Whenever ice-cream is presented to these two individuals, B will simply ignore it, no matter how tempting it looks and what quantities are available. The temptation is very real, but has absolutely no impact on B. Christ, as the God-Man, could not be tempted with evil, no matter how subtle the temptation and how tempting the offer. Therefore all of Satan's temptation were very real, but had absolutely no impact on Christ. Christ was the only Man who could challenge His enemies and ask them to accuse Him of any sin . None could do so.

Prairiehiker -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/26/2008 11:46:22 PM)
quote: Christ, as the God-Man, could not be tempted with evil, no matter how subtle the temptation and how tempting the offer. Therefore all of Satan's temptation were very real, but had absolutely no impact on Christ. Did Jesus have any desires that are common to men? If he was fully man, he would have them, but he submitted his desire to the will of the father. Is that what you're saying?

heavensmailman -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/27/2008 10:58:26 AM)
Revelation-3:21 Jesus said: " To him, who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. What must we overcome, is it not temptation? What did Jesus overcome? If we do not overcome temptation, do we not sin? We give into temptation over and over again. JESUS DID NOT give into temptation, not even one time, and did NOT sin. Jesus overcame temptation, meaning he could have given in, which he did not. Is Jesus God ? YES Can God our Father be tempted? NO John-16:33 Jesus said: " I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. ( temptation) But take heart! I have overcome the world." 1st Peter-1:22 " He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." Isaiah-53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Peace

Ezra -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/27/2008 2:25:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker quote: Christ, as the God-Man, could not be tempted with evil, no matter how subtle the temptation and how tempting the offer. Therefore all of Satan's temptation were very real, but had absolutely no impact on Christ. Did Jesus have any desires that are common to men? If he was fully man, he would have them, but he submitted his desire to the will of the father. Is that what you're saying? Prairiehiker: The first thing that Christians need to accept is that we will never understand the mystery of Christ -- the God-Man. He is unique, and therefore "the desires that are common to men" -- i.e. the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eye, and the pride of life -- do not apply to Him. Christ was born of a virgin specifically to circumvent the taint of Adam (the taint of the human race). Yet He was the "seed of the woman" (Gen. 3:15) in order to establish His rightful claim to the throne of David. He also took upon Himself "the seed of Abraham" (Heb. 2:16) so that He would die for our sins and shed His blood for our redemption, and also become a merciful and faithful High Priest who understands our infirmities (Heb. 2:17). He was confronted with all manner of temptations, but there was no sinful response from within, thus "apart from sin", and "separate from sinners" (Heb.7:26). As a man He "suffered being tempted" (Heb. 2:18) but He sinned not, because He could not sin. God cannot be tempted with evil (Jas. 1:13). Who is sufficient for all these mysteries? Yet Christians continue to try and understand Christ with human reason and logic. He is beyond such reasoning. He is "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3:16), not man taking on God-like characteristics or a good Jewish rabbi who set an example for us.

Heavendweller -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/27/2008 2:47:41 PM)
quote: Ezra: "The first thing that Christians need to accept is that we will never understand the mystery of Christ -- the God-Man. He is unique, and therefore "the desires that are common to men" -- i.e. the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eye, and the pride of life -- do not apply to Him. Christ was born of a virgin specifically to circumvent the taint of Adam (the taint of the human race). Yet He was the "seed of the woman" (Gen. 3:15) in order to establish His rightful claim to the throne of David. He also took upon Himself "the seed of Abraham" (Heb. 2:16) so that He would die for our sins and shed His blood for our redemption, and also become a merciful and faithful High Priest who understands our infirmities (Heb. 2:17). He was confronted with all manner of temptations, but there was no sinful response from within, thus "apart from sin", and "separate from sinners" (Heb.7:26). As a man He "suffered being tempted" (Heb. 2:18) but He sinned not, because He could not sin. God cannot be tempted with evil (Jas. 1:13). Who is sufficient for all these mysteries? Yet Christians continue to try and understand Christ with human reason and logic. He is beyond such reasoning. He is "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3:16), not man taking on God-like characteristics or a good Jewish rabbi who set an example for us." Ezra, I throroughly appreciate and concur with your comments. Why do you suppose some Christians find it so difficult to grasp this concept that our Lord Jesus Christ could not have sinned? I've thought that perhaps it's because people want so much to humanize Christ, to stress His identification with us, that they overlook His unique nature as God Incarnate. No one in all of humanity could ever claim to be "God Incarnate." In His becoming like us, He still took on flesh that is "not like us" as you have made clear in your post. No one in all of humanity has been nor ever will be born of a virgin. This uniqueness is what sets Him apart from us. And praise God for that. While we need to imitate Christ in what He taught us, which is recorded in the gospels, there are ways in which we can never imitate Him. For it was necessary that He, the spotless Lamb, be the One and Only acceptable sacrifice. No other sacrifice could suffice. Thanks for all your posts. They have been an encouragement to my faith in Christ, our Paschal Lamb. Heavendweller

abraxas -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/27/2008 3:41:57 PM)
quote: Christ was born of a virgin specifically to circumvent the taint of Adam (the taint of the human race). Are virgins untainted in a way that married women are?

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/27/2008 4:22:39 PM)
quote: Why do you suppose some Christians find it so difficult to grasp this concept that our Lord Jesus Christ could not have sinned? Because there is no Scriptural support for this (faulty) concept! Our Lord Jesus Christ chose not to sin because He had the same free will that we have and exercised His Will to perfect concordance with His Father's Will. I do have Scriptural support for this (correct) concept!

Ezra -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/27/2008 5:17:29 PM)
quote: Thanks for all your posts. They have been an encouragement to my faith in Christ, our Paschal Lamb. Heavendweller Thanks Heavendweller. And thanks for mentioning the Paschal Lamb, who must of necessity be completely free from any taint or blemish. quote: Are virgins untainted in a way that married women are? That's not the point. A virgin birth was necessary for a supernatural conception, and that is how Christ was conceived -- by the power of the Holy Spirit, not the joining of sperm and ovum. Jesus was absolutely unique, and His name is Immanuel -- God with us.

Ezra -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/27/2008 5:25:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark quote: Why do you suppose some Christians find it so difficult to grasp this concept that our Lord Jesus Christ could not have sinned? Because there is no Scriptural support for this (faulty) concept! Our Lord Jesus Christ chose not to sin because He had the same free will that we have and exercised His Will to perfect concordance with His Father's Will. I do have Scriptural support for this (correct) concept! Sorry, drmark, but Scripture does not support you in the least. Unless you can prove from Scripture (1) that Christ was not God every moment of His earthly life, (2) that there can be a division between Christ's full humanity and His absolute Deity, (3) that the humanity of Christ was exactly the same as our humanity (tainted with the sin nature), and (4) that God can be tempted with sin and evil, you have no case. So please produce your evidence, or believe that it was impossible for Christ to sin. Christ did no sin, Christ had no sin, Christ could not sin, and Christ would not sin. These are the characteristics of the God-Man.

Sabellius -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/27/2008 8:26:53 PM)
We are men helped by the Holy Spirit--being spiritually transformed to what God originally created us for, i.e. relationship. Jesus was God existing as a man. A true yet perfect human being.

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/27/2008 9:36:18 PM)
quote: Sorry, drmark, but Scripture does not support you in the least. I offer Hebrews 4:15 in support - For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. I interpret this (as do many theologians much brighter than I'll ever be) to mean that Christ's temptations were fully tempting, just as our temptations are. The only difference is that He chose not to succumb. If you argue Christ was unable to succumb, then our temptations are not real either (or else no one ever sins and I know you cannot believe that!). Now it's your turn. Please reference Scripture that states Christ could and would not sin while here on earth.

Sabellius -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/27/2008 11:00:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark quote: Sorry, drmark, but Scripture does not support you in the least. I offer Hebrews 4:15 in support - For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. I interpret this (as do many theologians much brighter than I'll ever be) to mean that Christ's temptations were fully tempting, just as our temptations are. The only difference is that He chose not to succumb. If you argue Christ was unable to succumb, then our temptations are not real either (or else no one ever sins and I know you cannot believe that!). Now it's your turn. Please reference Scripture that states Christ could and would not sin while here on earth. You are missing a crucial point. The scriptures do say that they were without sin. God cannot be tempted by evil and there is no way Jesus could not be God. To be tempted to do immorality would mean that God actually desired, no matter how brief, something that is contrary to His very nature and would undeify Himself. The scripture is not silent. quote: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (James 1:13 KJV) Jesus is not just like every human being. Jesus is God and man. He is God existing as man whereas you and I are men existing as men. If you say Jesus could sin then you must now demonstrate how Jesus could not be God at some point in order to allow for only a man to be tempted.

Ezra -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/27/2008 11:40:43 PM)
quote: I offer Hebrews 4:15 in support - For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. Actually this verse says the exact opposite of what you believe it says. Firstly, let us look at the actual verse in the Greek transliterated -- ou-gar hechomen archierea me dunamenon-de sumpathesai tais-astheneias-emon, pepeiramenon-de kata panta kath-homoioteta choris* hamartias.* This is literally translated in Berry's Interlinear NT as: For not have we a high priest not able to sympathise with our infirmities, but [who] has been tempted in all things according to [our] likeness, apart from sin. The comment on "apart from sin" from Jamieson, Fausset and Brown is: quote: without sin--Greek, "choris," "separate from sin" (Hebrews 7:26). If the Greek "aneu" had been used, sin would have been regarded as the object absent from Christ the subject; but choris here implies that Christ, the subject, is regarded as separated from sin the object [TITTMANN]. Thus, throughout His temptations in their origin, process, and result, sin had nothing in Him; He was apart and separate from it [ALFORD]. This comment is critical since it gives the lie to the teaching that Christ could have sinned. "Sin had nothing in Him" means exactly that. John Gill and Matthew Henry say the very same thing -- Christ could not sin (I refer to these commentaries since they are readily available on this website). That is why Heb. 7:26 says He is "separate from sinners". Again, "according to our likeness" means that He was fully human but not with our tainted humanity (Phil. 2:6-8). He was sinless in His humanity. His was a humanity unlike that of the children of Adam. The second Man is the Lord from Heaven (1 Cor. 15:47). There was nothing within Him to respond to sinful temptations. Furthermore, we cannot take any verse in Scripture in isolation, therefore this verse must be taken in the context of the Person and nature of Christ. The context of Christ being not able to sin is found in Isaiah 7:14 and 9:6, so let us consider these very carefully: "Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name IMMANUEL... For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulders: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, the Prince of Peace." Jesus is the Lord God Almighty (Rev. 1:8,11,17,18), the everlasting Father, God with us (Immanuel). Can God sin? "Behold, He putteth no trust in His saints; yea THE HEAVENS ARE NOT CLEAN IN HIS SIGHT. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" (Job 15:15,16). As I have stated earlier, we simply fail to understand that Christ is not just a man. He is the God-Man, hence unique in every way. Even so He can sympathize with our weaknesses and infirmities without condoning our sins.

abraxas -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/28/2008 1:40:42 AM)
quote: quote: quote: Are virgins untainted in a way that married women are? That's not the point. A virgin birth was necessary for a supernatural conception, and that is how Christ was conceived -- by the power of the Holy Spirit, not the joining of sperm and ovum. Jesus was absolutely unique, and His name is Immanuel -- God with us. I'm not going to pursue this because it goes off topic, but you said the virgin birth was necessary to circumvent the taint of the human race. But Mary was human. So I was wondering if there were something about her virginity that makes her less "tainted." Now you're saying that virgin birth was necessary for a "supernatural birth". If God impregnated a married woman, that wouldn't be supernatural? That's all from me.

DaveW -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/28/2008 8:02:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sabellius Jesus was tempted but He was only tempted as something He could be tempted of as God. There were no immoral temptations that came to Christ. A temptation presupposes a desire if only for a moment. If He is merely a man, then yes He could have sinned and experienced immoral temptation. So this is a lie? Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Was He Not tempted in moral ways? I certainly have been. If He had not ever been tempted with fornicating or adultery, when I have been and many others here as well, how can you apply this verse? This seems to me to be a no-brainer.

DaveW -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/28/2008 8:09:55 AM)
On the subject of His Divinity, I would submit to you that if He had fought sin from His divinity (or performed the miracles or His powerful teaching and revelation) strictly from Hhis divinity, then He would have been a poor role model. Part of the reason for His life here was to show us how to live Godly lives by the power of the Holy Spirit. I don't know about you, but I am NOT fully God. The only divine nature I have is the indwelling Holy Spirit. He did not "set aside" His divinity, but chose to act from the humanity empowered by the Holy Spirit. That is the only way that all these statements about Him can be true.

Sabellius -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/28/2008 10:33:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW quote: ORIGINAL: Sabellius Jesus was tempted but He was only tempted as something He could be tempted of as God. There were no immoral temptations that came to Christ. A temptation presupposes a desire if only for a moment. If He is merely a man, then yes He could have sinned and experienced immoral temptation. So this is a lie? Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Was He Not tempted in moral ways? I certainly have been. If He had not ever been tempted with fornicating or adultery, when I have been and many others here as well, how can you apply this verse? This seems to me to be a no-brainer. A lie? Sure you jest or you are simply not keeping up with this thread. I never said Christ was NOT tempted period. He was tempted, He was tempted to do things that He as God could do not tempted by evil.

DaveW -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/28/2008 11:27:11 AM)
You said he was not tempted on moral issues. Post # 25 quote: Jesus was tempted but He was only tempted as something He could be tempted of as God. There were no immoral temptations that came to Christ. Post # 43. quote: To be tempted to do immorality would mean that God actually desired, no matter how brief, something that is contrary to His very nature and would undeify Himself. Which means that HE was NOT tempted IN ALL WAYS as we are. So that makes the Hebrews verse a lie. Um, how can you be tempted to do something that is not evil? How is that a temptation?

drmark -> RE: Could Jesus have sinned? (4/28/2008 11:59:08 AM)
quote: The scripture is not silent. quote: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (James 1:13 KJV) Actually, I looked at the interlinear translation of this verse and the original text uses the word apeirastos, which is literally translated "without or no temptation". The modern English versions say "cannot be tempted" but I feel there may be a subtle yet significant difference in those two meanings. quote: quote: Was He Not tempted in moral ways? I certainly have been. If He had not ever been tempted with fornicating or adultery, when I have been and many others here as well, how can you apply this verse? This seems to me to be a no-brainer. A lie? Sure you jest or you are simply not keeping up with this thread. I never said Christ was NOT tempted period. He was tempted, He was tempted to do things that He as God could do not tempted by evil. If you say that Christ was tempted by things He could not willfully do because he's God, then you are in reality saying that Christ was NOT tempted! By definition, a true temptation requires the ability to respond. Otherwise it is not tempting, is it! Look, folks, was Jesus hungry after 40 days of fasting? You better believe it! If not, then turning stones into bread is NOT tempting. Was Jesus aware he could call 10,000 angels instantly to His side? Absolutely! If not, then showing off your resources is NOT tempting. Was Jesus sure that Satan could offer Him the world's riches? Of course, He was there when the Father kicked Satan out of heaven! If not, then Satan offering something that he had no control over is NOT tempting. Some of you are misunderstanding the concept of "fully human". DaveW and I have never claimed Christ was "merely human". I praise God that my Savior knows exactly how I feel when I am tempted because He was tempted just like me, yet chose not to sin.

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