RE: Baptists and playing cards (Full Version)

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JimboFletch -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/21/2008 8:25:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: relady

quote:

One of my grandmothers was raised "Hard-shell" Baptist--help me out here, Jimbo or someone, I am thinking that is Primitive Baptist but seem to have forgotten
yes. My great grandfather was a Primitive Baptist preacher and I've heard him referred to as "hard shell", whatever that means.

A "hardshell" believes that no other denomination but theirs will be in heaven. My maternal grandmother's family were hardshell Methodists, so it isn't confined to just certain kinds of Baptists.

She switched to Baptist as a young woman when she decided their doctrines didn't line up with her understanding of the Bible. She wasn't shunned but I think they thought her hope of heaven was her Methodist foundation.
[;)]



P31W -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/21/2008 11:59:43 AM)

Here is a brief history of the WMU and how they began in a Methodist Chruch.

During the meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention in Richmond, Virginia, in May of 1888, a group of women delegates from 12 states gathered at the Broad Street United Methodist Church and organized the Executive Committee of the Woman's Mission Societies, Auxiliary to Southern Baptist Convention. In previous years, women had been meeting during the convention to discuss the possibilities of creating a missions organization. During the 1888 meeting, a constitution was adopted and the first officers were elected. Baltimore, Maryland, was chosen as headquarters.

http://www.wmu.com/resources/library/main_history.asp


I don't believe Southern Baptist ever held the view that only "baptist" were saved.

I also know that Lottie Moon in the early 1900's often spurred Southern Bapitst on to help support missions by telling us all the wonderful things the Methodist were doing. I also know that she was a Southern Baptist Missionary yet she worked alongside (ok man am I going to mispell this word!!!) Prespyterian missionaries. LOL I know that's spelled wrong!

Southern Bapitst have always pretty much believed in cooperation between like minded chruches.



Heavendweller -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/21/2008 1:00:12 PM)

quote:

In fact there's an old joke about some Catholics being shown around heaven by St. Peter after they arrived and as they passed the "Baptist quarters" St. Peter says "be very quiet, the Baptists think they're the only ones here." LOL. Glad we've moved past that.

Do you really think so? I've been to a number of Evangelical & Fundamentalist churches, and have known Christians from these circles many years. I've heard on more than one occasion that ___________
(you fill in the blank) aren't "saved." Most recently I heard this from folks who attended a non-denominational church.

And they weren't just referring to those RC folk, but other Protestant denominations.

Wanna rethink that comment just a bit? (smile)

Heavendweller



Heavendweller -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/21/2008 1:19:23 PM)

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

I don't believe Southern Baptist ever held the view that only "baptist" were saved.

Must be the "Independent" Baptists. I attended an IBC at one time (long ago) and they pretty much thought they were "it" when it came to salvation and knowing the Scriptures. They even thought the Southern Baptists were off track. Funny thing though. I remember the popular line the preacher used during the altar calls, "I don't care if I ever see you again, or if you ever come back to this church again. But if you don't get saved today (or tonight if that was the case), you may leave here lost and go to hell. Funny thing, guess if they got "saved" and left only to attend a Wesleyan, Nazarene, Methodist, or Lutheran church they were nonetheless saved. And better off for leaving the IBC! lol!

quote:

I also know that Lottie Moon in the early 1900's often spurred Southern Bapitst on to help support missions by telling us all the wonderful things the Methodist were doing. I also know that she was a Southern Baptist Missionary yet she worked alongside (ok man am I going to mispell this word!!!) Prespyterian missionaries. LOL I know that's spelled wrong!

I'll help you out here. P r e s b y t e r i a n. Now I hope no one on this forum gets offended. (smile)

quote:

Southern Bapitst have always pretty much believed in cooperation between like minded chruches.

Yeah, but what do they think about Lutherans? :)

Now, let's get back to playing cards. What'll it be? Gin Rummy or 5 card stud, or Black Jack?

HD



relady -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/21/2008 3:46:10 PM)

quote:

I've only been exposed in my life to one SB preacher who believed that dancing and playing cards was wrong.
Ha ha, well I invite you to central Illinois in the 60s then. It was taught as oh, so wrong. I was not allowed to even attend school dances, take dance lessons or do anything involving dance. Cards were not allowed in our house. I'm a PK. And while we weren't OVERTLY taught that only Baptists were saved, it was strongly implied. My parents would not allow me to attend any church other than an SBC church until I was in high school.

After I moved to St. Louis in my 30s I attended the oldest SBC west of the Mississippi. Very large church compared to where I grew up. When my son got into the youth group the youth pastor used to tell the kids to make sure and evangelize their unsaved Catholic friends. That was it. I have been out since then.

Of course, I imagine that there have always been SBC's that weren't that strict, but I was raised in very small town churches with pastors whose pastoral education consisted of self study and God's leading. My dad is a great pastor, but he is the same way. Of course, over the years he has become way more tolerant of all sorts of things but it wasn't much fun growing up.

Heavendweller....maybe I should have said I HOPE we've moved past that. I know not everyone has, but I think in SBC circles most people have, at least the way it was being presented when I was young.



JimboFletch -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/21/2008 4:10:53 PM)

I just remembered an incident from my youth.

In the late 60s, an SBC pastor in my town won a new car from a raffle to raise money for some kids group. Actually, raffles were illegal in Florida then, so for a $1 donation, you were given a ticket that gave you a chance to win the car. For winning with the ticket he got for his one dollar donation, the church dismissed him and he left town in disgrace.

I wasn't even a member of an SBC church back then and I thought that was a little overboard...



StephK -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/21/2008 4:37:18 PM)

quote:

Must be the "Independent" Baptists. I attended an IBC at one time (long ago) and they pretty much thought they were "it" when it came to salvation and knowing the Scriptures. They even thought the Southern Baptists were off track. Funny thing though. I remember the popular line the preacher used during the altar calls, "I don't care if I ever see you again, or if you ever come back to this church again. But if you don't get saved today (or tonight if that was the case), you may leave here lost and go to hell. Funny thing, guess if they got "saved" and left only to attend a Wesleyan, Nazarene, Methodist, or Lutheran church they were nonetheless saved. And better off for leaving the IBC! lol!


I've read some IBC websites think the SBC are almost heretics. [sm=eek.gif]



colliefan -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/21/2008 6:11:30 PM)

quote:

Yeah, but what do they think about Lutherans? :)


Too much like Catholics. No Christians before the Reformation.



themaestro -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/21/2008 7:19:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

I just remembered an incident from my youth.

In the late 60s, an SBC pastor in my town won a new car from a raffle to raise money for some kids group. Actually, raffles were illegal in Florida then, so for a $1 donation, you were given a ticket that gave you a chance to win the car. For winning with the ticket he got for his one dollar donation, the church dismissed him and he left town in disgrace.

I wasn't even a member of an SBC church back then and I thought that was a little overboard...

I can't even describe how idiotic those people were.



BibleL7 -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/21/2008 8:26:37 PM)

quote:


ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

I just remembered an incident from my youth.

In the late 60s, an SBC pastor in my town won a new car from a raffle to raise money for some kids group. Actually, raffles were illegal in Florida then, so for a $1 donation, you were given a ticket that gave you a chance to win the car. For winning with the ticket he got for his one dollar donation, the church dismissed him and he left town in disgrace.

I wasn't even a member of an SBC church back then and I thought that was a little overboard...

quote:


I can't even describe how idiotic those people were.


There is a difference in participating in an illegal game and Christian liberties. We are commanded to obey the laws of the land as long as they are not contrary to God's law. If the state law was against raffles then by participating the Pastor was then breaking the law. When it comes to matters like playing cards which are not against the law then you are only looking at our liberties. There are too many things that people consider sin that is not mentioned as sin in Bible. As Paul said all things may be lawful but not all things are helpful. Gambling in my state is legal, except lotteries, but many feel that gambling is wrong, The Bible does not specifically say it is sin, yet most agree in our Baptist Church that it would not be good stewardship of our monies so we avoid it but we do not call it sin nor do we say you cant be in the church if you do gamble. Many have gone overboard in claiming because things can lead to sinful activities they must be avoided and are sinful but I would say the Lord decides what is sinful for sin is against Him.

Just the opinion of a small town preacher



Heavendweller -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/21/2008 9:19:54 PM)

quote:

Heavendweller: Yeah, but what do they think about Lutherans? :)

Colliefan: "Too much like Catholics. No Christians before the Reformation."

Hmmmmm.....Martin Luther (as in Lutherans) was the mover and shaker of the Reformation!

No Christians before the Reformation? 1500 years and no Church, no Christians???????? [8|][8|][8|]

Heavendweller



themaestro -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/21/2008 10:52:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BibleL7

quote:


ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

I just remembered an incident from my youth.

In the late 60s, an SBC pastor in my town won a new car from a raffle to raise money for some kids group. Actually, raffles were illegal in Florida then, so for a $1 donation, you were given a ticket that gave you a chance to win the car. For winning with the ticket he got for his one dollar donation, the church dismissed him and he left town in disgrace.

I wasn't even a member of an SBC church back then and I thought that was a little overboard...

quote:


I can't even describe how idiotic those people were.


There is a difference in participating in an illegal game and Christian liberties. We are commanded to obey the laws of the land as long as they are not contrary to God's law. If the state law was against raffles then by participating the Pastor was then breaking the law. When it comes to matters like playing cards which are not against the law then you are only looking at our liberties. There are too many things that people consider sin that is not mentioned as sin in Bible. As Paul said all things may be lawful but not all things are helpful. Gambling in my state is legal, except lotteries, but many feel that gambling is wrong, The Bible does not specifically say it is sin, yet most agree in our Baptist Church that it would not be good stewardship of our monies so we avoid it but we do not call it sin nor do we say you cant be in the church if you do gamble. Many have gone overboard in claiming because things can lead to sinful activities they must be avoided and are sinful but I would say the Lord decides what is sinful for sin is against Him.

Just the opinion of a small town preacher



Oh but it is not a raffle it is renamed something else. Yrs ago Bingo for money was illegal so the local Moose Lodge called it Kingo. Perfectly legal.



crankius -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/21/2008 11:14:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I wasn't even a member of an SBC church back then and I thought that was a little overboard...



ACCKKKK!!! A little overboard! [8|]

That's really a sad story. I wonder what ever happened to him. Maybe he wasn't too sad to leave. [:D]



P31W -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/22/2008 7:48:38 AM)

quote:

Actually, raffles were illegal in Florida then


What if today he was found smoking pot?

One of these days it's probably going to be legal in this country and people will look back on us and say "I can't even describe how idiotic those people were."



P31W -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/22/2008 7:55:32 AM)

BibleL7,

Great post. Wise of you not to join in on the bashing. Being a peacemaker is the mark of a Christian.



P31W -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/22/2008 8:34:43 AM)

quote:

And while we weren't OVERTLY taught that only Baptists were saved, it was strongly implied. My parents would not allow me to attend any church other than an SBC church until I was in high school.


You also said you are a preacher's kid. I take it that your family chose to teach and imply to you certain values and beliefs that were beyond what was taught or held by the SB convention. Being part of the convention allows your family to teach you what they like. However just because your parents chose to teach you certain things and joined certain SB churches that did not dispute their teaching does not mean that it was rampant or ever a part of the SBC.

It was the "norm" in my church to cooperate with other chruches. Announce their VBS and Revival dates from the pulpit and then meet at the chruch to drive over to the other chruches together. (carpool) I believe that my parents just as your selected a church based on their beliefs.

My grandparents back in the early 30's built their home with a dance parlor in the front of it. They were both active SB. When they built a home in the city they allowed the SB pastor and his wife to live in that home for free. The church didn't have a problem with my grandparents back in the 30=40's hosting weekly dances in their home. It was very popular from what I understand.

This is all in Mississippi.

quote:

I was not allowed to even attend school dances, take dance lessons or do anything involving dance


I on the other hand took dance lessons 5 days per week - two hours per day. Jazz, tap, ballet and toe.

My older sibling took Jazz in the 50's.

I believe that your experience has more to do with your parents belief system than it did with what the SBC believed. And your parents chose to find a group of like minded people to align themselves with.



relady -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/22/2008 10:46:46 PM)

quote:

believe that your experience has more to do with your parents belief system than it did with what the SBC believed. And your parents chose to find a group of like minded people to align themselves with.
Well, I've gone to SBC churches all over the midwest and they were all pretty much the same. My parents were huge proponents of whatever the SBC promulgated and the churches were all very active in supporting the Convention. It wasn't just my family, it was every church I was ever involved in until I became an adult. Then I found a good church but left when they started insinuating that Catholics were not Christians. I do know the Southern SBC churches were very different. I guess that's what comes from being in a denomination where you have local autonomy of the churches. I'm just saying in the entire region I come from that's what the churches were all like, even the big ones. Here in MO, some of the big SBC churches are still too conservative for me.

quote:

I take it that your family chose to teach and imply to you certain values and beliefs that were beyond what was taught or held by the SB convention. Being part of the convention allows your family to teach you what they like.
Maybe, but I have to say that all the churches we were in (several) used the SBC Sunday School, VBS, etc., etc., materials and we really weren't taught anything not in line with what was in those materials in the 60s. Drinking, smoking, dancing, card playing, and gambling were all seriously frowned upon and strongly discouraged in the SBC "approved" literature.



colliefan -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/22/2008 11:13:23 PM)

One SB church we attended said that blacks were welcome to attend, but they could not join the church,



Melitac -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/23/2008 5:08:23 AM)

After Katrina (while I was a member of a SBC church) my kids and I volunteered with the SBC Disaster Relief in Gulfport, MS. We were there for about 5 months, then for 2 years off and on.
(my experience with the SBC church led us to our present church today that is not SBC.)
I was born and raised SBC.

While in Gulfport we served at a little rural church that house hundreds of other SBC volunteer church groups that came to help in the disaster relief efforts. In the months were were there we cooked and maintained the boarding facility of the volunteers. It was VERY INTERESTING.

And let me tell ya, no 2 SBC churches are alike. And we fellowshipped with about 10 different groups a week of about 10-20 volunteers each. We met SO many amazing people and keep in touch still today with a good number of them.
Some went to the casinos!!! Many smoked and drank. And many more were very strict.
These groups came from Ok, TX, TN, KY, IL, MO, IO, ME, NY and so MANY other states.
I feel very priveledged to have seen this vast variety of SBC people. It taught me ALOT!

PW31 is correct that the final teachings usually come down to the pastor. But this can change as pastorship changes.
Here in my town (MO) we have a very large SBC church whos pastor preaches "one can only be saved by baptism alone". This is very much against formal SBC doctrine. But each church is allowed it's own doctrines, amazingly enough.
You will discover this if you ever belonged to an SBC church and expected the SBC to formally discipline or correct wrong doctrinal teaching. They won't do it.
It comes down to the church level and the congregation/deacons/elders itself.

So you see the variety here in regards to playing cards and such within the SBC.



Melitac -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/23/2008 5:14:38 AM)

I am in no way bashing the SBC. I love this congregation! They are committed to studying the word deeply and seeking scriptural Truth. My kids know scripture inside and out due to the Bible Drills they grew up with at SBC churches.

At one time I taught at an Independent Baptist school. I was required to attend their church. They were 5 point Calvinist all the way. But when my kids went away to their Bible Camp one summer, it was there that they learned how to play POKER!! [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]



Melitac -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (4/23/2008 5:23:13 AM)

Colliefan,

My nephew was a youth pastor at a SBC church in very rural Arkansas.
His girlfriend he met while attending Seminary in Memphis. She is half black/white.
When my nephew brought her to his church, he was shunned and asked not to come back.
This happened just a few months ago. Right after Christmas.

Sad, but true. Not sure how he and his girlfriend are doing right now. But I know they were deeply hurt.



Scraggles6 -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (5/7/2008 9:37:50 AM)

Okay - I am a member of a Southern Baptist church and in a couple of
weeks our Sunday School class is having a card party, so I don't really see that as an issue with our church.
NOW - if we were gambling I can see the problem.
I just don't get how people in the church get gambling and card playing
so mixed together. People could gample on about anything you don't need
cards for that.
[:)]



P31W -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (5/7/2008 12:09:30 PM)

quote:

This is very much against formal SBC doctrine. But each church is allowed it's own doctrines, amazingly enough.
.


I don't believe you are correct. The topic you mentioned was salvation. I don't believe the SBC allows a church to join the association that teaches one must be saved by faith and works.



csl7037 -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (5/7/2008 12:39:33 PM)

We don't go to a Baptist church - it's mostly people who would call themselves either Baptist or Charasmatic (50/50) if they were forced to choose, so many "former Baptists" (incl pastor) but not members of SBC like my last church was.

Dh plays poker once/month with the neighbors. Who cares? He's taken a couple friends from church when they needed more guys. A group from my kids' very Baptist school gets together once/month and plays Bunco - how's that any different? Dice are different than cards somehow? I wouldn't play with Taro or even Pokemon cards (an issue I'm having with my son right now) but come on.



JimboFletch -> RE: Baptists and playing cards (5/7/2008 12:51:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Melitac
Here in my town (MO) we have a very large SBC church whos pastor preaches "one can only be saved by baptism alone".

That sounds more like a twisted version of the Church of Christ than any Baptist. (I say "twisted" because CoC doesn't teach salvation by baptism alone but some may misinterpret their doctrine to say that.)



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