RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? (Full Version)

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ta_mosquito -> RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? (4/24/2008 9:08:55 PM)

Of course.

But you won't find proof in it that Michael is Jesus.



Bluethread -> RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? (4/25/2008 3:46:55 PM)

Those who profess that will have to make the case. I was just saying that to reject the idea of Michael as an epiphany based on Jude 1:9 and the doctrine of the trinity is not valid. As far as I am concerned the jury is till out.



figmentPez -> RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? (4/26/2008 2:50:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

I hope you and figmentPez realize that the Tanach is what is called by some the old testiment.


Oh my, I really have egg on my face don't I? I honestly can't recall having heard the OT referrred to as the Tanach before, and I really messed up when I didn't read your post closely enough. I think I got confused when you talked about Jude 1:9 coming from the Tanach, when it is not a direct quote of any scripture. There are, however, claims that it came from some apocryphal work, and I thought you mean that hypothetical book when you said "tanach". My apologies.

quote:

Those who profess that will have to make the case. I was just saying that to reject the idea of Michael as an epiphany based on Jude 1:9 and the doctrine of the trinity is not valid. As far as I am concerned the jury is till out.


I have given you sound argument from scripture proving that Michael the archangel does not have the authority that Jesus Christ has. You are dishonoring Jesus Christ by saying that He does not have the authority to rebuke the devil. Unless you can provide something from the OT that is somehow contrary to this proof, and I see nothing that would contradict this stance, then the jury is not still out.

You can reject proper Christian doctrine all you want, but the truth is that Jesus Christ is not Michael the Archangel.



adoptedson -> RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? (4/27/2008 3:39:54 PM)

I have been studying Latter day saints, Jehovies, Catholic Apocryphal books, and new age theories. My suggestion to any new believer is to read your bible a lot and get comfortable with it. There is nothing wrong with the N.I.V. student bible as some have told me it is uninspired. God inspired his word and wants you to read it. The people in these organizations have been trained by their leaders and do not have a true biblical background. If you lay their theology over what the bible says you will see that it does not match up. Your bible is the source of Gods word and communication to you. Anything that does not comply with the Bible is not God's word. I'm talking about contrary teachings. Jesus does not say belief in him gains salvation ,and then turn around and say 'wait, I mean your following the commandments gain your salvation'. The book of Galatians alone destroys both Jehovah Witness and Mormon teachings. Read your Bible. Read your Bible. Read your Bible. Then someday you will be able to witness to them. Christ is the cornerstone. Build with the Word of God and you will have a wall that they will run into that may save them. Share what you learn and encourage others. Either what we believe is real or it is not. If it is, then God is behind us and His truth will shine through whether people like it or not. Read your Bible.



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? (4/27/2008 3:46:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fallenstar

This post has to do with the Bible, and the question I have to ask is mainly for Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses. I was reading the Jehovah's Witness book, called "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" and on a page in the back it was stating that Jesus Christ and Michael the Archangel are the same "person", or being. Jehovah's Witnesses, why don't they just call Michael the Archangel Christ the Archangel, why the change of name? (I ask Catholics because they say prayers to Michael the Archangel, just so you know why I mentioned it in the beggining.) I honestly don't understand. And also, are Jehovah's Witnesses Christians? I'm not really sure, because I am a new believer and my previous faith was somthing opposite of Christianity. Even if you are'nt Catholic or Jehovah's Witness and you have an answer to my question, feel free to say so.
[>:] Thanks
Ahem . . . Catholics do not believe that Michael the Archangel is Jesus.

I won't enter the debate of whether they pray to him or not, as that is not the topic of this thread.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? (4/27/2008 6:00:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: adoptedson

I have been studying Latter day saints, Jehovies, Catholic Apocryphal books, and new age theories. My suggestion to any new believer is to read your bible a lot and get comfortable with it. There is nothing wrong with the N.I.V. student bible as some have told me it is uninspired. God inspired his word and wants you to read it. The people in these organizations have been trained by their leaders and do not have a true biblical background. If you lay their theology over what the bible says you will see that it does not match up. Your bible is the source of Gods word and communication to you. Anything that does not comply with the Bible is not God's word. I'm talking about contrary teachings. Jesus does not say belief in him gains salvation ,and then turn around and say 'wait, I mean your following the commandments gain your salvation'. The book of Galatians alone destroys both Jehovah Witness and Mormon teachings. Read your Bible. Read your Bible. Read your Bible. Then someday you will be able to witness to them. Christ is the cornerstone. Build with the Word of God and you will have a wall that they will run into that may save them. Share what you learn and encourage others. Either what we believe is real or it is not. If it is, then God is behind us and His truth will shine through whether people like it or not. Read your Bible.



Amen!



Bluethread -> RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? (4/28/2008 6:04:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez

I think I got confused when you talked about Jude 1:9 coming from the Tanach, when it is not a direct quote of any scripture. There are, however, claims that it came from some apocryphal work, and I thought you mean that hypothetical book when you said "tanach". My apologies.


Apologies accepted, however I did not say that Jude was quoting the Tanach(old testiment) but was quoting rabbinic literature.


quote:

I have given you sound argument from scripture proving that Michael the archangel does not have the authority that Jesus Christ has. You are dishonoring Jesus Christ by saying that He does not have the authority to rebuke the devil. Unless you can provide something from the OT that is somehow contrary to this proof, and I see nothing that would contradict this stance, then the jury is not still out.


The argument I have seen was based on Jude 1:9 and it's being from rabbinic literature is important. Jude was quoting a familiar story, this may have been for illustrative purposes only. Now, if you do believe he was adding credance to this rabbinic story, then, in the story, Yeshua(Jesus) could be appealing to Adonai out of respect, as He did at His temptation recorded by Yochanan(John). He had the power at His disposal to rebuke Ha Satan, but He chose to appeal to Ha Torah(The Word) for His authority.



figmentPez -> RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? (4/29/2008 5:25:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

Yeshua(Jesus) could be appealing to Adonai out of respect, as He did at His temptation recorded by Yochanan(John). He had the power at His disposal to rebuke Ha Satan, but He chose to appeal to Ha Torah(The Word) for His authority.


Sorry, the Son of God is LORD, just as much as the Father is LORD. The Son is just as much the author of scripture as the Father is. The Son quoting scripture is not the same as an appeal appeal to the Father.



Bluethread -> RE: Michael the Archangel is Jesus? (4/29/2008 6:47:06 PM)

quote:

quote:



ORIGINAL: Bluethread

Yeshua(Jesus) could be appealing to Adonai out of respect, as He did at His temptation recorded by Yochanan(John). He had the power at His disposal to rebuke Ha Satan, but He chose to appeal to Ha Torah(The Word) for His authority.


Sorry, the Son of God is LORD, just as much as the Father is LORD. The Son is just as much the author of scripture as the Father is. The Son quoting scripture is not the same as an appeal appeal to the Father.


Why would quote Himself, if not for rhetorical purposes? Why would He not just rebuke Him outright? It appears to me in context that He is quoting Scripture, because He didn't see equality with Adonai as a thing to be grasped, but in humbled Himself to take the form of corruptable man. So, it is possible that He has humbled Himself to Adonai Elohiem at other times and in other forms.



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