RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die?
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/21/2008 12:13:55 AM
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strangeharmony
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I do not believe the answer is this complex, it's actually very simple.
If the death of a young child/infant came as a surprise to God, then as a just God, He would have to have some system with dealing with children who die before (what we see as) an age of discernment. (Perhaps, such as, letting them all in because they "didn't have a chance to believe".)
However, because nothing comes to God as a surprise, He's prepared. The soul of a young deceased child or even an aborted fetus, has a place reserved for him/her in heaven, or he/she doesn't. Remember, God saves, we don't save ourselves. God knows that soul. It has nothing to do with who they were born to, or what God thinks they would have believed later in life if they had lived. God knows they are to die, and God knows who His children are, and who are not. It shouldn't be a matter to struggle with if we believe in the true sovereignty of God and His limitless ability to save.
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/21/2008 9:26:47 AM
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dboutwell
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We know we are all born condemned because of John 3...but what does that mean?
It seems we just naturally assume it means we go to Hell at death if we have not believed.
But what if "condemned" simply means that, like Paul said in Roman 7, we have a sin making machine in us(my version) and sooner or later it is going to get us into loads of trouble. Perhaps THAT is why we need saving.. NOT saving from Hell.
Looking up the Hell words in the Bible, it seems that we are creating our own definitions that just bolster our "sacred" beliefs instead of seeing what they really say.
All the Hell words in the OT are sheol and everybody went there when they died. Tophet, the valley of Hinnom, Daniel 12:2 are the only things in the OT that could even be slightly thought of as Hell as we know it, unless I am totally wrong. And these all seem to refer to Israel's demise. Daniel does indicate a ressurection but he only mentions that some will be raised to shame and everlasting contemp. And if Daniel is writing about the people of God, then he is not writing about rank sinners..he is writing about the people of God, which also happen to be the recipients of the Hell warnings(ref: Gehenna NT,Tophet, valley of hinnom in OT) in the New Testament.
If Hell is not the fate of unbelieving mankind then we don't have to worry about babies or anybody else going there.
It seems logical to me that only those who were given the oracles of God would be the ones raised to everlasting shame when they find out they were doing their own thing instead of God's thing, which is what they were supposed to do.(except for the fact that some of them were blinded by God for a time, for a purpose)
I don't think the Hell Christianity knows about was ever God's Hell in the first place. And, I think that is the "glitch" in our theology.
just my 2 cents :)
Debbie
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/21/2008 11:51:50 AM
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zoebob
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dboutwell,
Please contact community@salemwebnetwork.com regarding the status of your account. Do not attempt to post further until you do.
Do not send me PM's about this.
Do not discuss this in the public forums.
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/21/2008 12:38:18 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Are you saying Paul was ALIVE in the SPIRIT while murdering Christians? Now understand Paul believed he was doing the work of God by doing so...
John
i am not following your reasoning here. i am simply looking at the passage in romans 7 where paul says once he was alive, there is nothing in that passage about his murdering christians. to my knowledge paul never states that he was alive when murdering christians, do you have a passage where he says so?
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/21/2008 1:14:14 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Are you saying Paul was ALIVE in the SPIRIT while murdering Christians? Now understand Paul believed he was doing the work of God by doing so...
John
i am not following your reasoning here. i am simply looking at the passage in romans 7 where paul says once he was alive, there is nothing in that passage about his murdering christians. to my knowledge paul never states that he was alive when murdering christians, do you have a passage where he says so?
Sorry about that... I have been down this road before... I guess we will have to go the slow route..
What is Paul referring to about being alive? What is he alive in?
John
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/21/2008 1:50:12 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Sorry about that... I have been down this road before... I guess we will have to go the slow route..
What is Paul referring to about being alive? What is he alive in?
John
paul is refering to his existence prior to his understanding of the Law. he is speaking of a time when he did not know sin.
verse 7
7:7
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET ."
paul would have been exposed to the Law from birth being raised in the home of a pharisee. so as a newborn he would have heard the Law, what was lacking was knowledge.
dt 6
6 " These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. 7 " You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. 8 " You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/21/2008 3:03:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
paul is refering to his existence prior to his understanding of the Law. he is speaking of a time when he did not know sin.
What time of his life is he referring to?
And to get to the end quicker... Do you believe Paul saying he was alive in the Spirit?
John
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/21/2008 3:20:44 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
What time of his life is he referring to?
his early childhood
quote:
And to get to the end quicker... Do you believe Paul saying he was alive in the Spirit?
John
paul is saying that he hadnt fallen yet, iow he hadnt yet exchanged the truth of God for a lie
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/21/2008 7:51:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
his early childhood
According to what?
quote:
paul is saying that he hadnt fallen yet, iow he hadnt yet exchanged the truth of God for a lie
Paul hadn't fallen from what? A stool? A tree?
What truth of God did Paul before salvation? Cause before salvation his version of the truth had him committing murder in the name of God... A terrible sin with extra cheese and bacon...
John
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/22/2008 1:55:41 AM
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maygrrl
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I found this forum when I went looking for answers after a friend recently lost her 18 month old in a car accident. I also ask because I have a 10 month old. I am a Christian and understand the salvation process. I also see that there are not any clear answers in Scripture. My problem is this: it seems that there are 2 problems. 1 What happens to unborn and very small babies before they sin? 2. What happens with children who cannot understand salvation, yet have already shown their sinful natures by their actions. I have seen my son sin - willfully and defiantly. If "the wages of sin is death" doesn't that apply to him? Am I to just cross my finger and beg God to not take him until he has had the chance to make a decision about Christ? And what of my friend's son who was taken after showing his sinful nature, but long before he could make a personal decision?
Problem 1 can be answered to my satisfaction with the argument that sins done in the flesh will be judged, and that we are not judged for Adam's sin. "Salvation by grace, damnation by works." Having not had the chance to perform any deeds, I feel comfortable with the idea that the unborn and very young infants do go to heaven. But I am perplexed about older babies and children whom, as all parents have observed, are willing, sinful people.
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/22/2008 10:18:10 AM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
According to what?
romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET ." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died
when was paul alive according to scripture? before he sinned
quote:
paul is saying that he hadnt fallen yet, iow he hadnt yet exchanged the truth of God for a lie
Paul hadn't fallen from what? A stool? A tree?
What truth of God did Paul before salvation? Cause before salvation his version of the truth had him committing murder in the name of God... A terrible sin with extra cheese and bacon...
John
paul had the truth of God that all men have romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
stopping the quotation here here but continuing in scripture until romans 3:20, even of the gentiles in this passage paul writes
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
even the gentiles have the Law written in their hearts.
this is the truth that paul fell/turned from
are you saying that God has not made Himself known to all men, that they comprehend that truth, and that they turn from that truth?
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/22/2008 10:22:59 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: maygrrl
Problem 1 can be answered to my satisfaction with the argument that sins done in the flesh will be judged, and that we are not judged for Adam's sin. "Salvation by grace, damnation by works." Having not had the chance to perform any deeds, I feel comfortable with the idea that the unborn and very young infants do go to heaven. But I am perplexed about older babies and children whom, as all parents have observed, are willing, sinful people.
If we are condemned by the sin of Adam how we not judged by it? That idea makes the fall insignificant for the most part. We are born apart from the Spirit from the womb not because we sinned but because we are condemned. That state alone put us at odds with God. There is no neutral ground… One is either in the Spirit alive in Christ or dead apart from the Spirit and of the flesh… Man is born dead apart from the Spirit and of the flesh.
As for automatic baby salvation...
1.How does that work with the clear plan of salvation spelled out in the bible?
2.How do you get out around that God’s reasons for showing mercy are not because of what man does or doesn’t do, but according to God’s will.
3.The Flood most certainly was a judgment.
4. The idea removes babies from mankind
John
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/22/2008 4:13:05 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Does God excuse our corrupt nature because we "don't know?"
doesnt romans 1 teach us that the we suffer the wrath of God because we do know and turn away?
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/22/2008 9:33:51 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1831
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
According to what?
romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET ." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died
when was paul alive according to scripture? before he sinned
alive in the Spirit? If so please explain such a concept prior to salvation....
quote:
paul is saying that he hadnt fallen yet, iow he hadnt yet exchanged the truth of God for a lie
Paul hadn't fallen from what? A stool? A tree?
What truth of God did Paul before salvation? Cause before salvation his version of the truth had him committing murder in the name of God... A terrible sin with extra cheese and bacon...
John
paul had the truth of God that all men have romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
stopping the quotation here here but continuing in scripture until romans 3:20, even of the gentiles in this passage paul writes
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
even the gentiles have the Law written in their hearts.
this is the truth that paul fell/turned from
are you saying that God has not made Himself known to all men, that they comprehend that truth, and that they turn from that truth?
I am saying and have been saying and the last four times this concept came up and I said that man is dead in the Spirit prior to salvation... Paul wasn't alive in the Spirit prior to his conversion... Man is born dead... The things of the Spirit are foolishness to natural man, that is man prior to salvation...
John
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/22/2008 9:35:32 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Does God excuse our corrupt nature because we "don't know?"
doesnt romans 1 teach us that the we suffer the wrath of God because we do know and turn away?
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
It says that the creation alone leaves man without excuse...
John
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/23/2008 3:20:23 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I am saying and have been saying and the last four times this concept came up and I said that man is dead in the Spirit prior to salvation... Paul wasn't alive in the Spirit prior to his conversion... Man is born dead... The things of the Spirit are foolishness to natural man, that is man prior to salvation...
John
i dont hold to augustianism so based on what do you say that man is born dead?
< Message edited by john_mark -- 4/23/2008 4:01:22 PM >
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/23/2008 3:31:49 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
It says that the creation alone leaves man without excuse...
John
i would say that the romans passage speaks to more than creation but i agree with you creation allows man see to "His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, " to know the "truth of God" and "acknowledge God"
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/23/2008 7:22:41 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I am saying and have been saying and the last four times this concept came up and I said that man is dead in the Spirit prior to salvation... Paul wasn't alive in the Spirit prior to his conversion... Man is born dead... The things of the Spirit are foolishness to natural man, that is man prior to salvation...
John
i dont hold to augustianism so based on what do you say that man is born dead?
Either do I... It's plainly in the Scrpitures....
First and foremost... The truth that one must be born again to enter the Kingdom...
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." -2nd Corinthians 5:17
A new creature... Not a new self, a new creature... Different...
Romans 3 says the WORLD stands guilty before God...
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Man is either in the flesh, or in the Spirit...
You are saying that man is born alive in the Spirit, sins, the Spirit dies... Somewhere down the road he is raised and the Spirit comes back... Does this happen every time you sin?
"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." -John 3:1-7
John
1st Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/23/2008 9:07:30 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Do you think you are aware of your constant sin nature? Absolutely. I certainly do know that I'm a sinner not deserving of heaven.
quote:
Do you notice every mistake you make, and realize it's sin? Well, maybe not, but I still know that I'm a sinner saved by grace.
quote:
Does God excuse our corrupt nature because we "don't know?" Yeah, I think He does. He will only hold us accountable for what we know. And sometimes not even that, if we're forgiven through the blood of Christ.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/23/2008 9:37:34 PM
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1love1God1way
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What was Jesus' prayer up on the cross?
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/23/2008 11:34:57 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Do you think you are aware of your constant sin nature? Absolutely. I certainly do know that I'm a sinner not deserving of heaven.
quote:
Do you notice every mistake you make, and realize it's sin? Well, maybe not, but I still know that I'm a sinner saved by grace.
quote:
Does God excuse our corrupt nature because we "don't know?" Yeah, I think He does. He will only hold us accountable for what we know. And sometimes not even that, if we're forgiven through the blood of Christ.
That's a HUGE if...
John
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/23/2008 11:37:39 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
What was Jesus' prayer up on the cross?
Ummm.... It is finished?
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they ... - 4/24/2008 11:23:23 AM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
What was Jesus' prayer up on the cross?
Ummm.... It is finished?
Not that one.
I'll give you a hint. . . it had to do with forgiving. . .
_____________________________
-Ben-
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